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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Nobody thinks this, it's just a lot more common in CE.

Can you link me a video of it happening? (Not being sarcastic just genuinely have never seen one.) 

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Bolded titles for easier reading (hopefully);

 

In regards to Sprint skill. Yes there is skill in it, and no you can't say that it is factually or objectively more or less competitive than non-sprint. However what you can say, is that sprint lowers the percentage of the skill gap that relates to shooting, ie. a skilful player in a sprint game, has all the skills needed for a non-sprint Halo title, plus knowledge and skill of sprint use (this skill is mainly made up of judgement of when and when not to sprint, which is/can be always evolving). This means the percent of a sprint player's skill that is shooting related, is lower than that of a non-sprint user.

 

Another angle you can look at this is that shooting skill isn't as necessary for victory - if you use sprint better, it will allow you to have better positioning, stay alive longer, get more angles for dealing damage to enemies, and acquire more power weapons. This is fact - someone who uses sprint better has multiple advantages, so this lessens the need for accurate shooting.

The overall skillgap is the same, if not higher as there are more elements to become proficient in. HOWEVER, is this dip in shooting skill requirement something players want?

Do we play Halo to out-position and out-move people, or to out-shoot them?

 

The argument that ‘sprint lets you get away so it’s bad’ is fairly invalid, because getting away 1-shot in a sprint game is exactly the same as getting away 1-shot in a non-sprint game. The only difference is the scale; in a sprint game you can move further from cover than in a non-sprint game. And again this doesn't factually/objectively mean it is more or less skilful, it is just a preference - do we play Halo because we want to be able to move around without much restriction and out-flank opponents, or do we want to play Halo because we want to out-shoot and out-setup opponents? (non-sprint games are more set-up based because of the danger in un-careful movement).

There is still definitely a large skill gap in any Halo game, it has just become less obvious as less of it lies in shooting, and more of it lies in movement and judgement of when and when not to sprint. And for a viewer watching someone sprint and which position they chose to be in, isn’t as black and white as shooting in terms of if they did well or not, yet both have a huge effect on success of the player and their team.

 

For the record I am not an advocate of sprint - never have been, never will be. I prefer the skill gap to be shooting orientated, and dislike the difficulty in player-tracking that sprint brings to the game as it is so difficult that player-location often appears random. Of course it is not random, but the effect on the game is akin to randomness, which we all know directly reduces skill gap and enjoyment (being 'randomly' back smacked isn't fun, neither is playing with your head on a swivel to prevent this)

I also dislike that sprint makes respawning less of a disadvantage, which means getting kills is less rewarded. I like to play first person shooters to get good at shooting and killing - it makes me feel badass. Out-positioning and out-flanking does not.

 

 

 

 

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The good news is that we'll have plenty of options for everyone so even if you hate a bunch of the designs because they seem overly complicated / detailed / lacking in functional design logic, you can go for the sets that you personally prefer. And you can shoot the people wearing the ones you hate. Win-win.

 

Yeah that's fair enough  :kappa:

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No disagreement there, but the slow pace was indeed a factor. The pace of a Halo game, given that things like unlimited lives per round remain constant, have an impact on the game's skill gap. 

 

Game pace should be determined by individual player choices and map design, not the limits of the individual to kill players or the caps puts on by mechanics like sprint+ADS which intentionally slow down a game and separate movement from shooting. While historically, the fastest FPS have had the largest individual skill gaps mainly due to the sheer power of possessing a near infinite APM potential and mechanical skill inherent in an Arena FPS. Its clear Halo could really benefit from requiring a higher APM like HCE+H2(with button glitches), but everything 343 implements like military shooter sprint+ADS and alot of defense-oriented movement mechanics seems to reinforce the idea that 343 wants Halo to be a team game based on team tactics.

 

Personally, I think 343 should be striving to hit that 50/50 balance Halo once possessed and letting map design and player choices determine pace not mechanics. People want to see teams with players so good they steak other top teams, they want to see players able to carry if they get hot, they want to see a player able to out-smart and out-skill opponents without having to resort to team-shot, they want to see a more dynamic Halo. Faster movement/strafe+Ability to shoot while using thruster+bigger difference between min/max time to kill+lethal PW's/power-ups on quick timers= A more competitive Halo game. The frustrating thing is Halo 5 could become a good comp Halo game if 343 weren't so stubborn to stick to counter-intuitive mechanics that frankly have no business being in the Halo formula, but once again it seems destined that Halo will never recapture its competitive magic.

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so is the generally consensus that snd/whatever its called in cs:go absolutely not work in Halo? Even with full health and shields? 

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In regards to Sprint skill. Yes there is skill in it,

No there isn't. lol

 

If there was skill in it, there would be a clear and distinct difference between times where you shouldn't sprint and times where you should sprint. No such thing exists. It is impossible to use sprint "better" than the next person because 1) it requires no skill to push a single button with no other factors involved, and 2) there is no cerebral component. Maybe if Halo maps were structured like platformers where running/jumping/etc. became a skillful element, but no. You sprint where you want to go because getting there as fast as possible is always the goal.

 

The argument that ‘sprint lets you get away so it’s bad’ is fairly invalid, because getting away 1-shot in a sprint game is exactly the same as getting away 1-shot in a non-sprint game. The only difference is the scale; in a sprint game you can move further from cover than in a non-sprint game.

It is both harder to hit a sprinting opponent running across your field of view, as well as easier to escape a botched push with sprint. Your comparison would work IF the kill times were increased to make the total time of vulnerability proportional, but they never were.
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No there isn't. lol

The Almighty Lemon has spoken!

 

I'd say that the fact thats Instinct dominated Reach with sprint and Ambush dominated H4 with sprint that shows that there is a certain skill to sprint. Watch Pistola Halo Reach and Halo4 gameplay, he used sprint better than any other player and it showed. 

 

Now IMO it's a pretty lame and boring skill to have but it certainly existed. 

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I'd say that the fact thats Instinct dominated Reach with sprint and Ambush dominated H4 with sprint that shows that there is a certain skill to sprint.

Or they were some of the best Halo players ever regardless

 

Either or I guess

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No there isn't. lol

 

If there was skill in it, there would be a clear and distinct difference between times where you shouldn't sprint and times where you should sprint. No such thing exists. It is impossible to use sprint "better" than the next person because 1) it requires no skill to push a single button with no other factors involved, and 2) there is no cerebral component. Maybe if Halo maps were structured like platformers where running/jumping/etc. became a skillful element, but no. You sprint where you want to go because getting there as fast as possible is always the goal.

You are treating this as if there is no such thing as judgemental skill. Of course the act of sprinting isn't a skill, picking up a power weapon isn't a skill either, but you agree there is skill surrounding the act? Knowing when and when not to attempt to obtain a power weapon is a judgemental skill- do it too early and risk being killed, do it too late and forfeit the weapon. Power weapons can also be similar to spirnt in terms of deminishing the shooting percentage of total skill-gap. As out-killing someone because your weapon was stronger isn't exactly skill. Yes there is skill in setting up, obtaining, and in some cases using the power weapon, but having them in the game takes some of the shooting importance/skill requirement, and converts it to timing, strategy and execution skill in obtaining power weapons. Sprint does the same except adds skill in knowing when and when not to sprint, and where and where not to sprint to. The same as knowing when and when not to duck or jump.

 

I understand you dislike the gameplay sprint provides, as do I. But ignoring judgemental factors in one element, but not in others isn't a very good way to argue.

 

Again, for the record I am not an advocate for sprint. I just want us to start discussing it with a bit more sense and logic rather than using annoyances and comparisons as reasons against it.

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If there was skill in it, there would be a clear and distinct difference between times where you shouldn't sprint and times where you should sprint. No such thing exists. It is impossible to use sprint "better" than the next person because 1) it requires no skill to push a single button with no other factors involved, and 2) there is no cerebral component. Maybe if Halo maps were structured like platformers where running/jumping/etc. became a skillful element, but no. You sprint where you want to go because getting there as fast as possible is always the goal.

 

 

You know you're getting good at explaining this. It's more refined each time I see it.

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The overall skillgap is the same, if not higher as there are more elements to become proficient in.

The objective detriment imposed on the skill gap by loss of punishment for making bad decisions and gunplay outweighs anything that sprint gives. You lose much more from the competitive side of the game than you gain. We can say the same thing in regards to long kill times.

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You are treating this as if there is no such thing as judgemental skill. Of course the act of sprinting isn't a skill, picking up a power weapon isn't a skill either, but you agree there is skill surrounding the fact? Power weapons can also be similar to spirnt in terms of deminishing the shooting percentage of total skill-gap. As out-killing someone because your weapon was strong isn't exactly skill. Yes there is skill in setting up, obtaining, and in some cases using the power weapon, but having them in the game takes some of the shooting importance/skill requirement, and converts it to timing, strategy and execution skill in obtaining power weapons. Sprint does the same except adds skill in know when and when not to sprint, and where and where not to sprint to. The same as knowing when and when not to duck or jump.

When in the hell do you decide "I'm NOT going to duck right now"?

 

Like, answer that before we even attempt to continue this.

 

I understand you dislike the gameplay sprint provides, as do I. But ignoring judgemental factors in one element, but not in others isn't a very good way to argue.

 

Again, for the record I am not an advocate for sprint. I just want us to start discussing it with a bit more sense and logic rather than using annoyances and comparisons as reasons against it.

If you're saying I'm biased, I'm going to disagree with you. Obviously.

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You know you're getting good at explaining this. It's more refined each time I see it.

 

He has more practice than anyone. That poor horses family.

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All I'm saying is that different elements change what the total skill requirement for the game is made up of. In previous titles there were less elements to learn, giving a higher percent of the total skill gap to acts like shooting, timing power weapons, strafing/ducking/jumping, map movement and spawn prediction/control. Whenever something is added, all previous skill requirements are lessened.

 

To make it more simple- if halo was just a 1v1 shooting in a flat square room with no jumping and ducking, half of the skill would be in shooting, and half would be in the strafing (give or take, depending on the aim assist and strafing mechanics).

Now if you add jumping and a team mate for each player. They now have to focus on shooting, strafing, jumping and team shooting. Each element will make up a certain percent of the overall skillgap of the game, but this time shooting skill will have a lower requirement for success- you could out-jump,strafe, and teamshoot to beat players with better aim than you, where in the former more basic example, youd be hard pressed to beat someone with better aim than you if all you had to combat it was strafing.

 

That is what sprint does to the game- further lowers all of these elements' requirements, and adds a lot of judgemental skill in terms of when and where to sprint to. This cannot be argued- a player with sprint has FAR more movement and positioning options to chose from than a non-sprint player, making the optimum choice less obvious (more judgementally skill requiring).

 

I am not saying sprint adds more skill to the game. Do not misconceive what I am saying. I am just saying that sprint makes the game less about shooting and more about movement and positioning - and that isn't as exciting or enjoyable. Thats how we should be arguing against sprint, not "oh but he escaped when he shouldn't have, sprint is bad"

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When in the hell do you decide "I'm NOT going to duck right now"?

 

 

At the point when you're no longer crouching with a shotgun on BR 2.

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He has more practice than anyone. That poor horses family.

 

1185.gif

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I can't tell if I'm more hyped by the Season 2 team change suspense or the KurtiZ vs. Lemon war.

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That is what sprint does to the game- further lowers all of these elements' requirements, and adds a lot of judgemental skill in terms of when and where to sprint to. 

The skill gap isn't equal between the two cases because losing all of those elements is not fully compensated by the increase in judgement skill of when/where to sprint. It makes the game more one-dimensional because there aren't as many skills to master and the enriched skill isn't as demanding of the player as the skills which have been lost. This reduces the skill gap. 

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It's what sprint does to map design that makes me very opposed against it.

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It's what sprint does to map design that makes me very opposed against it.

This. I can bear every issue it presents except map expansion.

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so is the generally consensus that snd/whatever its called in cs:go absolutely not work in Halo? Even with full health and shields?

Quite the opposite. I think SnD with normal Halo gameplay would be flames.

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