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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Sprint is used solely as a defensive tool (you can't shoot your gun while sprinting), it allows players to escape situations in which they should have died, in combination with thruster it becomes even more useful. It also messes with the spawns since players can get faster into battle and effects map design in a lot of ways (which is why I doubt maps would play just fine without sprint).

It just creates a whole another kind of gameplay overall.

 

http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/5443-halo-5-guardians-discussion/page-303?do=findComment&comment=352999

 

 

That's probably one of the best posts on this matter.

Think about what you're actually saying:

 

Not being able to shoot does not make it a solely defensive tool

Should have died is an expectation based on the false idea that there was ever a consistency between punishment in Halo games

Not really relevant in discussing the negatives of that mechanic

Completely contradicts your original point of being used solely defensively

Given the intentions of the mechanic it categorically shouldn't affect map design, that is a problem with the map designers (and should be addressed as such) not the mechanic per se

 

and purple and blueeeeeeee. I can see a rainbow, see a rainbow, see a rainbow too. Speaking generally understand where people are coming from but the lengths and means of getting your points across (trying to win every battle, misquoting, general bullshittery) is clumsy and ineffective. If I'm rolling my eyes at posts and I'm relatively impartial then how are people who have a vested interest or preference in that mechanic/s going to react. Just going to quote this again because it was so bob-on.

 

Hey guys - what’s going on? 

 

In case you’re wondering, I stopped posting because whatever I say seems to get taken out of context and misconstrued. I don’t have time to pour over my posts to make them “bulletproof” and I don’t feel like I should have to. I was hopeful that we could have an ongoing, respectful dialogue about things without people leaping to conclusions and making hyperbolic characterizations.

 

For example, people keep throwing out #immersion as if that’s the only thing I mentioned in my post about sprint. I talked about the gameplay opportunities and combat choices that we wanted to offer players but hey, that was roundly ignored. Lets create a reductionist meme instead! Frank did an interview years ago where he mentioned that when we hired people to the studio, they had things about Halo that they didn’t like and wanted to change or improve. This gets reduced to “OMG they hired people that HATED Halo!” when in fact we hire with the exact opposite criteria in mind. People build and apply a narrative that suits their argument to stoke shit up.

 

I regret tweeting that link to self-selection bias without providing additional context. That was sent in response to a tweet linking to an online poll. It wasn’t meant to be some grand statement, just a reminder of the unreliable nature of open online polls. People self-select based on interest in the topic so it’s impossible to get an accurate representation of the response in context of the larger population. One of the big benefits of the HCFP is that participants are linked to their LIVE profiles so we can see exactly which Halo games they’ve played, how many hours they’ve spent, max skill achieved, etc. It also lets us present questions within a general survey context so that people don’t opt-in or out based on a particular issue they feel passionately about. It’s a more scientific approach to feedback run by the user research team and we value this tool a great deal.

 

@@Cursed Lemon: I’m not going to debate design decisions with the self proclaimed “Rush Limbaugh of Halo” who maintains an auto-sig featuring my studio’s logo on a background of Sauron’s Mount Doom. :) What would that accomplish? I understand you disagree with some of our design decisions. I respect your opinions and your passion. Obviously I am not going to convince you that the mechanics and choices we are bringing to the table make for compelling gameplay, because that’s a matter of subjective opinion and we disagree. Fair enough.

 

Even though I don’t post, I still come on here multiple times a week and read through all of the comments. I frequently share your perspective with our design teams (many of whom also read these forums regularly). I do this across many of the other Halo community sites as well because we’re building a game that serves a diverse community with varied interests. Understanding community perspective and sentiment is important to me. That doesn’t mean that we’ll always agree or that we’re going to make all of the design choices that you might want.

 

I want you to know I’m passionate about building a strong competitive experience in Halo 5: Guardians. There are a lot of big plans for competitive that I’ve been working on with teams across the studio and will be sharing over the next few months. I’m excited to hear what you guys think once they’re announced.

 

In the meantime, I’ll lurk on.

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Think about what you're actually saying:

 

Not being able to shoot does not make it a solely defensive tool

Should have died is an expectation based on the false idea that there was ever a consistency between punishment in Halo games

Not really relevant in discussing the negatives of that mechanic

Completely contradicts your original point of being used solely defensively

Given the intentions of the mechanic it categorically shouldn't affect map design, that is a problem with the map designers (and should be addressed as such) not the mechanic per se

 

It does (except when you have a sword)

Where you should have died if there was no sprint

It brings you faster into areas where your enemy is, you don't use it in the actual battle itself

You can't design a good map in Halo if you have to make it with two different player speeds in mind. It's fundamentally flawed.

 

Maybe it could "work" with kill times like CE, where you couldn't sprint away from combat anyway. But in "Team BR" Halo it will never work

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It does (except when you have a sword)

Where you should have died if there was no sprint

It brings you faster into areas where your enemy is, you don't use it in the actual battle itself

You can't design a good map in Halo if you have to make it with two different player speeds in mind. It's fundamentally flawed.

 

Maybe it could "work" with kill times like CE, where you couldn't sprint away from combat anyway. But in "Team BR" Halo it will never work

You're kind of exemplifying exactly what I'm talking about. Are you really arguing with me on an absolute statement that you continue to contradict yourself? Similarly circle jerk labeling such as "fundamentally flawed" just isn't helpful when you're talking about mechanics. When you think about it and I mean really think about it can level design not work with two movement speeds?

 

HINT: It not only can but does in a wide spectrum of games

 

Sorry if it seems like I'm picking on you but I'm just a little bored of it all.

 

It is used offensively to move offensively through the map, if I'm rushing your sniper / obj on Pit am I doing offensively or defensively? What's more you've actually brought up offensive options out of / combined with the mechanic in the sword / body check. Basically it's not "solely defensive" as you put it.

Died with no Sprint in which Halo game though? Because radically different kill times equate to radically different rates of punishment.

See the above.

Erm... Yes you can, see Quake where the maps were designed without strafe jumping in mind. Are they broken? Solid designs have elements that work with a variety of mechanics / speeds - what became Aerowalk or Downrush has been and continues to be played across a wide spectrum of mechanics including movement speeds and punishment rates (specifically quake / quake closes i.e. reflex / CE / HR / H4)

 

EDIT; to preempt the "but Quake isn't Halo", I'm using Quake because it is probably the most extreme example of the difference between base movement vs increased movement options.

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In general our tournaments have a pretty low prize pool for the pro's, as many of you will know Smite had a huge tournament a few months ago for, in the region of I believe 1.5million, most of it all based on in game purchases that went towards the prize pool.

 

In game purchases should never give a wealthy person an advantage. But "Skins" could be a good idea to rip off from CS GO. Imagine a few thousand people buying a skin for a dollar? It could help the competitive scene out alot.

 

Bigger prize pool = more dedicated pro's and more interested orgs.

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It is used offensively to move offensively through the map, if I'm rushing your sniper / obj on Pit am I doing offensively or defensively? What's more you've actually brought up offensive options out of / combined with the mechanic in the sword / body check. Basically it's not "solely defensive" as you put it.

Died with no Sprint in which Halo game though? Because radically different kill times equate to radically different rates of punishment.

See the above.

Erm... Yes you can, see Quake where the maps were designed without strafe jumping in mind. Are they broken? Solid designs have elements that work with a variety of mechanics / speeds - what became Aerowalk or Downrush has been and continues to be played across a wide spectrum of mechanics including movement speeds and punishment rates (specifically quake / quake closes i.e. reflex / CE / HR / H4)

 

EDIT; to preempt the "but Quake isn't Halo", I'm using Quake because it is probably the most extreme example of the difference between base movement vs increased movement options.

 

 

It's never used to actually rush enemies if these have thumbs. The delay between getting out of sprint and being able to shoot again prevents this. Alright, when considering the sword and melee it's not solely defensive (but even these offensive aspects of sprint are pretty dumb).

Halo 5. There were plenty of situations in the beta where I would have been dead without sprint. Also Reach for example since you can play it with or without sprint.

I'm talking specifically about "Team BR" Halo, there it is fundamentally flawed, the kind of gameplay we had since Halo 2. As I said sprint wouldn't be as bad as it is in CE (although it would certainly not make the game any better).

 

As long as we have the kind of gameplay where it's all about teamshooting and weak individual players (and we know that this won't change) sprint won't work in Halo.

 

Do I really have to formulate everything so that you can't deliberately misunderstand it? When I say map design with two movement speeds doesn't work I'm of course talking about a Halo game with mechanics that build upon Halo 2 (speak: every Halo game that isn't CE).

 

 

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As long as we have the kind of gameplay where it's all about teamshooting and weak individual players (and we know that this won't change) sprint won't work in Halo.

 

Do I really have to formulate everything so that you can't deliberately misunderstand it? When I say map design with two movement speeds doesn't work I'm of course talking about a Halo game with mechanics that build upon Halo 2 (speak: every Halo game that isn't CE).

I'm not misunderstand anything, merely challenging the literal meaning of what you're saying to show how far you're reaching to try and make your points seem absolute.

 

In general our tournaments have a pretty low prize pool for the pro's, as many of you will know Smite had a huge tournament a few months ago for, in the region of I believe 1.5million, most of it all based on in game purchases that went towards the prize pool.

 

In game purchases should never give a wealthy person an advantage. But "Skins" could be a good idea to rip off from CS GO. Imagine a few thousand people buying a skin for a dollar? It could help the competitive scene out alot.

 

Bigger prize pool = more dedicated pro's and more interested orgs.

They should definitely rip off CSGO with the skins if they can. Everyone benefits in a system that Halo already implements.

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There are some things about the H5 beta that concern me.  The first is the switch to the ADS-style zoom.  ADS obscures more of the important parts of the screen than the traditional Halo zoom, which I feel is a bad idea, and is a counter-incentive to run-and-gun style of play due to more easily losing sight of the enemy due to your own movement.  SmartScope also decreases spread, which makes no sense from a physical standpoint, and encourages scoping in situations that otherwise would not incentivize that.  And given the aforementioned counter-incentive to certain movements when scoped, this encourages more stop-shoot-go kind of play.  Admittedly the effect was not huge because the benefit is not huge, but it worries players like me who see the benefit being further expanded in future titles.  Please reconsider the ADS-style zoom.  It really isn't necessary, and a mostly cosmetic ADS screen overlay cannot possibly be a big draw for newer players.

 

First of all pretty much everything you've said is 100% correct, I love the way you've dissected everything but there is one minor issue I have with it. 

 

I agree with some of the things you've mentioned involving ADS. It impacts base movement from what I can see which is wrong but with an amendment ADS is simply a cosmetic difference because of descope. With descope scoping in for all short range battles is not the main incentive in Halo 5. From a social stand point I find a lot new comers dislike the lack of ADS implementation actually especially younger players. It does increase immersion, it slightly imapcts balance because of sprint and shields being tied together but it's certainly not significant enough to be considered in Halo 5. In almost all close quarters battles ADS can't be abused and it's only strong points are long range (obviously) where it's literally the same as click to zoom in classic Halo but actually more fluid because of its retraction. Where as if I were clicking and holding the right thumbstick to zoom it would only make things frustrating (more skillful obviously harder) but annoying none the less for newer lesser skilled players and casuals and kind of counter intuitive. Given the fact that I have been playing FPS virtually the same amount of time as you (since doom) and haven't had breaks from my analysis of Halo 5 I think it is quite balanced and is being criticized simply because it is different to classic Halo. What you said about ground pound and other implementations however was spot on. 

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and no sprint is not going to stop someone from purchasing halo 5. I wish 343 realized this.

You're probably right...but like I've said before, whatever the Halo 5 single player story is, it's already been written, designed, etc. No doubt that sprint plays a vital role in the lore aspect of Halo 5. Whether it should belong in mutliplayer is a different discussion, but I really don't see the need to discuss it any further because Josh flat out said that no-sprint will not affect the maps. If you don't believe him, then fine. The sprint discussion in my opinion is a moot point now. I've made suggestions on what to ask for in HCS.

 

Why does it matter to you guys so much if vanilla Halo 5 has sprint and HCS doesn't?

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Why does it matter to you guys so much if vanilla Halo 5 has sprint and HCS doesn't?

 

Because we don't solely play HCS? Aside from this I can almost guarantee you that HCS will have sprint.

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What bothered me the most during the H5 beta was not sprint, but the way the shooting in the sandbox.

It felt to me like all the game mechanics functioned in such a way that is is incredibly easy to kill someone who isn't looking/aware of you, and incredibly hard to kill someone if you get into what you could call a "legit 1v1 situation", especially the further away you get.

The balance of aim magnetism and bullet magnetism is the most important in my opinion. Bullet magnetism, especially on the BR is incredibly high. Aim magnetism on the other hand, is very low.

CE had the best shooting in the series and had it exactly the other way around, so that should been the first clue that this isn't a good idea, but let me expand on this.

The low aim/high bullet magnetism combo essentially leads to a worst of both worlds, even if it does provide the illusion of harder aiming. What the minimal auto aim in H5 does is punish you too severly for not keeping a completly steady reticle at all times.As soon as you drop out of the sticky aim zone, you are going to have a hard trouble getting back in. On the other hand, the massive bullet magnetism means you don't have to be precise with your shots in general, because as long as you sort of hit your opponent, you are going to get a hit, which is further facilitated by the ease of aiming with hitscan.

In essence, you get overly punished for making a big  mistake infrequently ( keeping a steady reticle the vast majority of the time, and slipping occasionally), while not getting punished enough for consistently making a small mistake ( not having to be maximally accurate because of the bullet magnetism).

This means that if you catch someone in any sort of situation where they cannot immediatly back out and run away, you profit from getting first shot and having no trouble dealing with low auto aim because he isn't strafing or sprinting and thrusting for his life, and because of the massive bullet magnetism it is an easy perfect kill.

 

On the other hand, if the other player knows you are there, whoever lets his reticle slip slightly first because of the low aim magnetism is going to lose because the bullet magnetism makes it next to impossible to catch up when you are down shots.

Now, with the multitude of movement options players have in H5, they have the choice of risking to attempt to win the battle with bad odds ( because of the way aim and bullet magnetism in H5 works) if they are caught off guard or miss a shot, or attempt to run instead of gun, and turn the situation around by getting by instead themselves being the one who can get the trivial kill by catching someone exposed.

The automatics are even worse offenders here because of the head shot bonus ( that was fortunately removed), the fact they are even easier to use, and  the fact that with the way smart scope tightens the spread the more shots you can get out before getting unscoped the easier the kill is.

 

With three team mates, the whole situation just gets exponentially worse because you can now point 4 weapons instead of one at an opponent, and anyone who is trying to run and gun ( read : out of position) is going to get melted because aiming is easy.

However, players aren't stupid and are going to anticipate that happening, so nobody ever moves unless they have a reason to, which wasn't very much back in the beta because of the horrible slow power weapon spawn timers.

The only other time people ever made a push is to steamroll the other team when they get 2+ down, because they can now put in shots from anywhere and everywhere because of sprint.

Again, this leads to the the teams just turtling up more and more to stop that situation from happening, and movement comes to standstill.

 

This was easily evident in games because they either turned into minute long stand offs that either ended 25-26 at time limit or one time seizing the opportunity when one team failed to turtle and then steamroll them ending the game that was just 25-23 with 50-32.

 

So in summary, most of the gameplay in H5 is just a chain of cascading advantages. This still means the better player will win most of the time, but he is going to be losing plenty of times because of a bad start that is unnecessarily hard to compensate for.

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I think the conversation of gameplay mechanics, as it relates to both MP AND SP is an important yet often overlooked one.

 

Some aspects of gameplay design in halo are clearly meant for MP, whereas others are meant for SP, AA's and bloom for example made a hell of a lot more sense in reach's SP than it did in its MP, and vice versa the grenade launcher was great in its MP but terrible in its SP. Why does this matter? because not ALL decisions in every halo game deserves to be given the same perspective as do others, not every single choice was made for the same reason.

 

All of that being said to say that sprint is meant for halo 5's SP is just ludicrous, in fact sprint made halo 4's SP (spartan ops more in particular) a chore because you had to keep pressing that button over and over again, now I believe they made it unlimited so maybe that will alleviate how tedious it was, but regardless it added practically nothing to halo's SP so to use that as an argument is just silly.

 

Now I'm going to go over the whole "immersion" perspective, to KISS that's a load of bull. Halo is a futuristic scifi game, people running arround doesn't really fit well in this context IMO, as I suggested before a more powerful thruster would be a far better fit immersion (and gameplay) wise.

 

The lore argument is also bad, lore should never be used to make a game worse, it should be used to improve the gameplay instead. If sprinting were a pivotal aspect of the halo universe this would be different but it is not, at no point in any of the halo's featuring no-sprint was that an issue.

 

Just accept the fact that sprint is meant to make more money and nothing more, its literally just a waste of a button.

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  • How do you guys define competitive?
  • We've deliberately created an experience where team plays a more important role than in the past. I speculate that some of you may view that shift as detrimental to what you consider best for competitive play because you would prefer the game to focus almost exclusively on individual skill. 

 

Competitive:  "as good as or better than others of a comparable nature."

 

"more important than in the past" The thing I'd like to know is, more important than in exactly what part of the past?  More so than in Halo 4 and Reach?  Or more so than in any other previous Halo title?

 

If Halo 5's being created with the goal of making it perhaps the most team-oriented game of all Halo titles, I can't help but question why this is even the goal if it causes you to speculate this notoriously competitive community might find it detrimental to H5's competitiveness.  

 

Name one team sport in which two teams can match up, and it be impossible for one or two players to essentially win the game for their team.  There are star players on all great teams, and that's so even within the most heavily team-oriented sports.  

 

LeBron's elite talent was not forgotten while playing with D-Wade and Chris Bosh, nor was it any less noticeable.  They and the Heat just won a hell of a lot more games while those three were playing together.  Now, basketball's certainly a team-oriented sport, right?

 

In a "competitive, team-oriented" Halo game, if I play exceptionally well and/or bad, then I expect both me and my team to benefit or suffer as a result.   Obviously, one of my teammates could offset my performance in either direction.  In more ways than one, this is what team sports are about.  Picking up your teammate if/when they have a bad game.  MVP's are named as such solely because they demonstrate an uncanny ability to single-handedly carry their teams to victory when they're needed to do so.

 

"Team-oriented" does not mean marching side-by-side, and team-shooting for each and every kill.  Teamwork starts with communication and it ends with execution.  Most of the time, the execution's ultimately accomplished or failed by just one player.  Still, that doesn't mean successful execution did not require a team effort.  

 

Not everybody gets every kill...in fact, just one person gets each kill.  Not everybody is good at using a Sniper Rifle.  Not everybody is equal, nor should the goal be to make them equal portions of their teams.  Not only would an attempt to do such a thing be unwise, it's literally impossible.

 

Please forgive me for my skepticism here, but I honestly have an extremely hard time believing Halo 5 will present a more team-oriented experience, when Spartan chatter and weapons' spawn placement indicators practically eliminate the very need for the single most important element of teamwork-communication.  That's not my subjective opinion either.  It does not matter if we're talking Blue Team, 343 industries, Harvard's rowing team, Red Team, or the New York Yankees.   All successful/winning teams do one thing exceptionally well, and that's communicate.  

 

By the way, Babe Ruth played with some of the greatest baseball players of all-time on his Yankee teams, and yet his individual performance is something I can refer to here in a Halo forum with no doubt the reference will be understood.  Team sports are played together by individuals.  There are great teams, great players, and there are still great players even on great teams.  

 

I think a better question would be, what's your definition of competitive?  Though, I think the best question is, why do you even suppose our definition of such a common word might be something other than what's plainly offered in a dictionary?  

 

Being new to posting here, I don't want to overstep my bounds.  Don't get me wrong, I think it's awesome that you're communicating with players, and offer us a chance speak back and forth . . . but at the same time, I personally don't feel you're offering us a fair shot at getting what we'd love to from this either.  Whether this is because you simply can't speak much about the game yet, I don't know.  All I know is that I've read tons of great, simple questions asked between your posts, yet I've only read a couple (maybe a few) direct answers thus far.  

 

I need one question answered - If I were to buy Halo 5 the day it released, would I be able to play the most popular game types in a ranked playlist that does not include sprint? 

 

If it's no, then I'll move along. That's how simple it is for me.  You say maps will play fine without sprint, and I have a hard time believing that, but I have faith in the community to make quality non-sprint maps even if it's not the case.  I'd love to see clamber either entirely erased, or dramatically changed, but sprint remains the deal-breaker for me.  

 

If 343i will allow me to play traditional Halo in ranked playlists, then I'll happily purchase Halo 5.  If not, then I'll disappointedly begin to do my Halo/Cubs thing and 'wait till next year'.

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Why does it matter to you guys so much if vanilla Halo 5 has sprint and HCS doesn't?

 

Two reasons

 

1. 343 will more than likely try to keep HCS and default the same to not alienates new players and viewers. They are currently doing this with H2A, default is the same game as competitive.

 

2. If we remove sprint for HCS it will alienate players like Reach all over again and h4 to a certain extent.

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We need more varied playlists, like I understand a bare bones playlist, but what about a playlist were just sprint was removed, or one with just thruster and everything else is removed and so forth? I like thruster, and slide, and ground pound, but what if I don't want to play with sprint and smart scope? Allowing players to tailor their play style is one thing but allowing us to tailor our game experience is something else entirely, things like custom game bots, or a custom game browser, ensure that the game is whatever the player makes it out to be, maximizing longevity by encouraging major creativity. The quality of a players experience is solely in the players hands.

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Did they give us a toggle for all spartan abilities, or just sprint?

 

All.

 

 

We need more varied playlists, like I understand a bare bones playlist, but what about a playlist were just sprint was removed, or one with just thruster and everything else is removed and so forth? I like thruster, and slide, and ground pound, but what if I don't want to play with sprint and smart scope?

 

The game will have no identity when you do things like this. Remember when the only issue ppl had with how they enjoyed halo was radar? sigh. The game is changing way too much.

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2. If we remove sprint for HCS it will alienate players like Reach all over again and h4 to a certain extent.

I'd say it even happened during Halo 3 since competive maps were so vastly different from default. 

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Two reasons

 

1. 343 will more than likely try to keep HCS and default the same to not alienates new players and viewers. They are currently doing this with H2A, default is the same game as competitive.

 

2. If we remove sprint for HCS it will alienate players like Reach all over again and h4 to a certain extent.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I can't come to grips with sprint being the end all be all of alienating players.

 

Not to be rude, but it's ridiculous.

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I'm sorry, but I can't come to grips with sprint being the end all be all of alienating players.

 

Not to be rude, but it's ridiculous.

 

Never underestimate a gamer. We've seen and heard players complain about how different Reach/H4 were and to a certain extent MLG in H3. This is nothing new. If you are able to sprint on regret in default but then search the HCS playlist and can't do it, you may or may not enjoy this change and if it's the latter you may want to stop playing in that playlist. It's happened before.

 

Also, sprint might not be the only thing we push to remove with a toggle since all the abilities with have it.

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Never underestimate a gamer. We've seen and heard players complain about how different Reach/H4 were and to a certain extent MLG in H3. This is nothing new. If you are able to sprint on regret in default but then search the HCS playlist and can't do it, you may or may not enjoy this change and if it's the latter you may want to stop playing in that playlist. It's happened before.

 

Also, sprint might not be the only thing we push to remove with a toggle since all the abilities with have it.

 

Compared to 3/Reach/4 where movement speed, weapon layouts, map spawns, objective rules, bloom, sprint, etc. were all removed and modified, I consider No Sprint H5 to be a very small change, under the condition that we keep majority of the base game.

 

Removing Sprint will only remove two abilities, Charge and Slide. Slide is redundant, I think we can all agree on that, and Charge's only purpose is to chase down players Sprinting.

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Compared to 3/Reach/4 where movement speed, weapon layouts, map spawns, objective rules, bloom, sprint, etc. were all removed and modified, I consider No Sprint H5 to be a very small change, under the condition that we keep majority of the base game.

 

Removing Sprint will only remove two abilities, Charge and Slide. Slide is redundant, I think we can all agree on that, and Charge's only purpose is to chase down players Sprinting.

 

True.

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But then we won't have montage clips of sliding-under-rocket noscopes.

 

I remember mentioning this before...during the beta I went for a snipe on this callout I got...kid slid under my shot and 4'd me...hilarious. It was crazy, but I won't miss the feature if sprint has to go.

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