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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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@Sal1ent

 

Ugh, it doesn't even make movement more fluid... Infact, it's a downgrade in every single fashion from previous games all to appease cod kids (Yea, that's right, CoD. Don't insult us by claiming a "cod fixation" when any intelligent person knows things being added to Halo only exist because you want cod kids to play it. News flash, they never will and all it accomplishes is chasing away people who want to play HALO). How can we go from being able to make jump ups from any direction with never needing to drop our weapon and now we have to turn to virtually every single jump, stop shooting just so we can get to a slightly higher location. How is that in any way, shape or form more fluid? How does that make us feel "more like a spartan"?

 

And by far the most offensive thing about "clamber" is the fact that 99% of jumps are deliberately tuned to require it's use.

 

 

 

You actually believe that? That really is sad...

 

We've seen with our own eyes the maps are gigantic due to sprint. Base speed would have to be increased to absurd levels to make them play properly.

Why would Josh lie about that?

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I like Thruster, but the main problem is it makes mid to long range fights are R3TARTEDDDDD.

 

 

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Why would Josh lie about that?

 

Not reallying lying, more a delusional belief that maps 343 makes actually play anything like they think they do.

 

Did you forget how they put complex into small team games? Did you forget that Haven was the only map in Halo 4 that was serviceable and everything else was pure hot garbage? Did you forget just how god awful the maps in the Beta played because everywhere there just had to be a thrust/sprint/clamber route that completely nullified any semblance of map flow?

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Explain to me how that's a big difference? If the maps are not affected by sprint or not sprint...I don't understand why it's a big deal.

 

You'd need to adjust the player's base speed. The maps in Reach for v7 were also not changed (in terms of size), but play Countdown with v7 and one time with default Slayer pro settings and tell me it's not a difference like day and night.

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You'd need to adjust the player's base speed. The maps in Reach for v7 were also not changed (in terms of size), but play Countdown with v7 and one time with default Slayer pro settings and tell me it's not a difference like day and night.

Josh already stated that the increase in base player movement speed will compensate for no sprint on Halo 5 maps.

 

@@SatansReverence I didn't think sprint honestly added that much more speed to the game...sprinting with a sword definitely did, but the sprint speed itself wasn't anything fast in my opinion.

 

If anything, I'd prefer Halo 5 to be faster than it was. Clamber and thrust combos provided for some very quick map movement, which in my opinion gave a quake-feel to the game, further adding arena-feelings to the game.

 

Speed has been lacking in Halo since Halo CE. The series has progressively gotten slower over time.

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Why all the unintended CQC options from H2 weren't seen as an opportunity for future titles I well never understand.

 

BXR is an insanely balanced mechanic. You have to have full ammo, you have to be close to the target and the target can duck the BXR and you are screwed if they do.

 

BXB is an alright mechanic, it's just timing to make your beatdowns faster. I don't really have a problem with it and it adds depth to the game.

 

Gears of War has a fast reload mechanic and the fact that you need a second weapon to YY reload in Halo 2 makes it more balanced and gives you a reason to pick up a second weapon.

 

The double shot is really is the only glitch in Halo 2 that I have a problem with. It's way too abusable with a programmable controller and it was really frustrating in Halo 2 matchmaking when you were getting shot with a machine gun BR. But they could have changed the mechanic to make it a little bit easier to do, but your gun "jams" and you can't shoot or change weapons for 2-3 seconds after doing it. Making it so you could come back from being 1 shot down, but if you missed, you lost the fight.

 

I agree that it's a lost opportunity that Bungie and now 343 thinks of button glitches as bad for the game, when they could be implemented officially and correctly to add depth to the game.

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Speed has been lacking in Halo since Halo CE. The series has progressively gotten slower over time.

 

Yes, and Halo 5 is the slowest of them all just behind default Reach.

 

You don't seem to get my point, though. No sprint and sprint are two different games, regardless of the maps.

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Yes, and Halo 5 is the slowest of them all just behind default Reach.

 

You don't seem to get my point, though. No sprint and sprint are two different games, regardless of the maps.

Explain to me how they're different.

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The mechanics aren't "pointless" - they have plenty of point. They allow us to give players (who enjoy that kind of thing) new ways to traverse maps, allow us to increase the verticality in some map styles and will allow us to do a bunch of things in campaign and as yet undiscussed MP stuff, that require those mechanics.

 

And that's all besides the usual evolution of a game to prevent it from being stale or redundant.

 

There's this infinitely popular game called Counter Strike that has hardly evolved, and is far from stale. Apparently you also suffer from the detrimental delusion that the future of FPS is Call of Duty, or I'll sugar coat it and just call it "modern". 

 

 

According to my superior tastes, Reach, becaused I hate armor lock and jetpack.

 

 

v7 Reach >

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Explain to me how they're different.

Sprint is used solely as a defensive tool (you can't shoot your gun while sprinting), it allows players to escape situations in which they should have died, in combination with thruster it becomes even more useful. It also messes with the spawns since players can get faster into battle and effects map design in a lot of ways (which is why I doubt maps would play just fine without sprint).

It just creates a whole another kind of gameplay overall.

 

http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/5443-halo-5-guardians-discussion/page-303?do=findComment&comment=352999

 

 

That's probably one of the best posts on this matter.

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Ugh MCC is just too big a disappointment for me to come back from.  I just can't think of anything that would make me come back except a population resurgence.  But it is pretty clear 343 isn't allocating enough resources to MCC to fix it quick enough and make this happen.  It's sad, but the glory days of Halo are gone.  I hope for everyone that continues to give this franchise a chance that they come back.  I just can't see it happening with Halo 5.  The game is a shell of what Halo used to be.  For me Halo is just Halo 1-3.  I'd prefer to forget about everything else.

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All FPS developers share some common goals. We are all trying to represent combat from the perspective of an individual human character.

 

#NoElitesConfirmed

 

Jokes aside, this might look premature, but would 343i support No Sprint tournaments (assuming HCS will support H5:G) if the Pros explicitly asked for it?

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This is the kind of dialogue we've been asking for and it's lovely. Thank you, Josh.

 

When more is revealed about the larger scope of H5, I hope you'll be able to fill us in on how these new concepts slot into the larger scope, provided we can't figure it out ourselves. Some of the people here may still not buy H5 because it isn't the kind of Halo they like anymore, but they'll still be less sour when they can understand why it isn't what they like anymore.

 

And inversely, the people who will buy H5 will appreciate it that much more.

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The double shot is really is the only glitch in Halo 2 that I have a problem with. It's way too abusable with a programmable controller and it was really frustrating in Halo 2 matchmaking when you were getting shot with a machine gun BR. 

Assuming people aren't cheating though, doubleshot was the best button combo mechanic to exist in Halo 2 in terms of adding to the game's competitive depth. 

 

I had a problem with BXR since players who got the first shot off in a gun fight were not allowed to use the combo. If I get outflanked and start taking shots from behind, I can run around a corner. The kill times being so long in Halo 2 allowed for players to escape like this, and if the player that outflanked this player attempts to chase down the kill, he is punished by not being able to use the button combo. Punishing players for doing something right (like giving away their position when a power weapon is picked up in Halo 5) takes away from the game's competitive depth. 

 

BLB was a better offensive close range mechanic because the risk was much greater- you drop an atomic grenade at your feet if you screw it up. I would have preferred this to be in Halo 2 instead of the BXR, or just had no BXR and only RRBX in Halo 2. 

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@@Frankie @@Sal1ent When will we hear more about starting weapons and weapon balancing? Lot of attention on the spartan abilities, but weapon balancing should be just right before launch. 

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Sprint is used solely as a defensive tool (you can't shoot your gun while sprinting), it allows players to escape situations in which they should have died, in combination with thruster it becomes even more useful. It also messes with the spawns since players can get faster into battle and effects map design in a lot of ways (which is why I doubt maps would play just fine without sprint).

It just creates a whole another kind of gameplay overall.

 

http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/5443-halo-5-guardians-discussion/page-303?do=findComment&comment=352999

 

 

That's probably one of the best posts on this matter.

So what you described is bad for competitive play/esports...so ask for sprint to be disabled in HCS.

 

Josh said no-sprint won't kill the maps...so really the final issue we have is this fabricated fear that billy bob average halo player will be so turned off by Halo esports because it won't have sprint. It's such a non-issue...Halo fans are making it out to be something it's not.

 

To me it's like the player movement speed MLG increased from the default game...it was pretty damn subtle and that's how I personally view sprint in Halo 5.

 

Guess what players will do if they really want to get into HCS if it doesn't roll with sprint...they'll adapt. If players want sprint so bad, they can stay in default candyland...it's not going to negatively affect HCS by not having sprint.

 

I've said this before, but if you start to strip other things away such as weapons on map, starting weapon alterations, the spartan abilities, player gravity, player movement speed, player damage, power ups, custom powerups (if this still exists), screwing around the weapon placement on the maps, etc....those added up will contribute to a great divide in the Halo community. MLG Halo 3 was so fucking drastically different from vanilla (and I'm not blaming MLG...they had to do what they did), it turned new people off from giving MLG a try.

 

Josh and company need to make sure vanilla Halo 5's starting weapon set is the EXACT same as HCS, plus the additional things I listed in my previous paragraph. Whether sprint is on or not isn't going to make someone stop playing HCS...if HCS decides to not have sprint.

 

Get out from under the rock.

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@@Frankie @@Sal1ent When will we hear more about starting weapons and weapon balancing? Lot of attention on the spartan abilities, but weapon balancing should be just right before launch. 

 

Starting weapons is the most important decision to grace Halo. If you get this right (BR/AR, AR/BR), you win Halo.

@@Sal1ent.

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I'm finally caught up on all the posts. It took a few days, with my schedule.

 

Let's stop talking about Sprint for a bit, shall we? Unless Josh posts something about no-sprint as a possibility for HCS or responds to our points that the dynamic choices Sprint creates are unempowering, choppy, unskillful, and detrimental to a faster game, especially when tying into the shield mechanics, there isn't much use debating. Note to 343: Sprint is still an incredibly important topic, and we believe its removal would benefit Halo's actual gameplay and therefore everyone that appreciates good gameplay.

 

I fully intend to respond (tomorrow, during Lockdown TS when I have time to think) to the topic of teamwork versus individual skill. Even though I don't like what they're saying, I love that they are actually saying something about it. Their design is at least intentional, although not ideal. My initial rough draft thought, which was expressed earlier by others, is that promoting teamwork, in Halo 5's case, simply means limiting individual power unnecessarily, which actually reduces the depth and complexity of the work a team of empowered individuals can accomplish.

 

- - -

Moving on: let's talk about Halo 5's weapon sandbox. Most of us here will agree that the game needs a strong matrix of unique weapons that will enhance not only competitive play but also the fun factor (they're surprisingly similar).

 

To kick off the discussion, let me propose an idea for a unique weapon trait. In Halo CE, plasma weapons had plasma stun, which slowed the target's reticle speed and movement speed. While the first component might be considered too jarring in this modern age by the developers and a significant portion of the community, the second could still work. It also occurred to me that the plasma stun could temporarily disable Spartan Abilities.

 

I've made the complaint before that despite Halo 5's more complex movement system, there is not enough firepower to control that movement. I have also argued that it is a common theme for Halo games starting with Halo 2 to have unbalanced movement with respect to the minimum to low-average kill times of the utility weapon, but in case the community is not ready for such a dynamic addition as a sub-one second minimum kill time, the Spartan Ability-busting plasma stun would provide a unique and powerful way to control and balance Halo 5's extended movement.

 

It's also not too much of a stretch from a lore perspective, so it would fit into the immersion model. Feel free to use this idea, Josh/Frank. I'm not planning on using it in any current or future project, as I'm looking even deeper into the relationship between movement and shooting.

 

Edits for clarity.

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I fully intend to respond (tomorrow, during Lockdown TS when I have time to think)

 

During last tournament I played in, I found myself in a Lockdown game in the grand finals, and held a conversation about said game in the twitch chat as it was being played.

63b6b35d_DEAL-WITH-IT.jpeg

 

Also I second the notion of bringing back plasma rifle stun and adding temporary ability disable to them - this is a fair balance for not being headshot capable.

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