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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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start requesting hcs be no sprint. simple solution.

I figure this is the optimal solution for all parties.

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I figure this is the optimal solution for all parties.

pretty much. josh confirmed maps are fine without sprint so... theres nothing else to argue about. request hcs be no sprint if its that important. honestly, i dont think there will be great divide unless starting weapons and weapons on map end up being drastically diff.

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Am I really the only one who thinks that adding a close combat button combo akin to bxb/bxr to balance thrust, sprinting melees, cqc power weapons, and overall to give more option to the player is the way to go?

 

Like Lemon said, thrust shouldn't be expected to be used, there should be options. And no, none of the other spartan abilities currently function as combat options - they are all situational.

 

Why all the unintended CQC options from H2 weren't seen as an opportunity for future titles I well never understand.

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running away is running away, I don't see difference in running away slowly and running away quickly and not shooting, they both have the capacity to accomplish the same result, the latter just makes the same tactic easier, making sprint redundant. If you see that as a choice, then fine but I don't consider it a significant one, if one at all.

I don't know how you don't see the tradeoff? You run and shoot at the cost of not moving as quickly, or you move quicker but you have no chance of fighting back and doing more damage, possibly helping your team take him down or taking him down yourself if the opponent chokes.

 

Getting away is easier if you sprint, but then you don't hurt any enemies. You may not be dying, therefore not penalizing your team, but you're not assisting your team by dealing damage.

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When you empower individuals so that they can hold down an area or time a power weapon without needing another BR to assist them, teamwork is allowed to evolve beyond teamshooting.

 

When you increase individual skill, you do not lose teamwork. In fact, you enrich the teamwork meta. Why is this competitive model inferior?

 

Furthermore, it is not fun to feel weak in a video game. Players feel weak when teamshooting is absolutely necessary.

 

This x10000

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This thread gave me a whole new level of respect for Frankie and Josh. Good discussion. (For the most part)

 

@sal1ents. How much have you guys toyed with sprint in terms of speed difference? What do you think about the ability to shoot and sprint?

 

Also, we are getting spectator mode. Have you guys considered an overview map where spectators can view team movements and strategies? I'm sure a lot of people are just going to spectate their favorite teams instead of tune in to streams for cups.

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start requesting hcs be no sprint. simple solution.

 

Because requesting things from 343 has worked so well in the past.

And even if no sprint was used in tournaments, we still had a split community.

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Am I really the only one who thinks that adding a close combat button combo akin to bxb/bxr to balance thrust, sprinting melees, cqc power weapons, and overall to give more option to the player is the way to go?

 

Like Lemon said, thrust shouldn't be expected to be used, there should be options. And no, none of the other spartan abilities currently function as combat options - they are all situational.

I'd give my first born child for official button combos. 

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@Sal1ent

 

I don't think anyone has a problem with "CoD" features being implemented into Halo simply because they are "CoD features". Adding things from CoD, or ANY other shooter is sometimes necessary and beneficial as long as it is beneficial to Halo. The problem 99% of us have is when features from other popular games are shoe-horned into Halo without taking into consideration the after effects of doing so.

 

In my opinion, Kill Cams are a good addition to Halo because they don't affect gameplay in any way really, yet they are a "cool" addition. If I no-scope someone or pull off an amazing play, I like how my victim can watch how I just wrecked them. That's cool. There are lots of other examples, such as taking Horde mode from Gears and creating Firefight. Halo 3 took a map editing feature that was very similar to Far Cry and made Forge. Halo took great ideas from other games, and nobody had a problem with them because they made Halo better. With spectator mode, nobody is bashing you because its taken from other games because it is a GOOD feature that benefits Halo.

 

There seems to be a ton of features added in Halo 5 just for the sake of making it similar to other shooters. Not just CoD. Smart Scope is a perfect example of this. It literally is ONLY aesthetically pleasing. There are ZERO benefits to gameplay that SS brings. In fact, SS actually feels worse and clunky. It may look cool, but its taking away the classic scope from other Halo's that worked so well and felt amazing. Now, you can say "SS is part of our vision blah blah blah..." or give any reason to justify its implementation but the fact remains - it hurts gameplay and to the fans, it looks like you copied every other shooter. There is no benefit to SS besides making it look more familiar to the non-Halo player. Nobody was asking for an ADS in Halo. I don't even think non-Halo fans care if ADS is in Halo. When there's no benefit to gameplay yet a feature from another game is added, it looks like a rip-off.

 

Another example of this is clamber. This one is more arguable because it does affect gameplay. You may tell us that its to help "immersion" or help the "fluidity" of the game. That's fine. I believe those were your intentions for adding it. But to 90% of the halo fanbase, it looks like you ripped off a CoD/BF mechanic in an attempt to make jumping easier. That's what the fans see. That's why things like SS and clamber are getting more hate than other features.

 

To me, and to most Halo fans, it looks like almost every change or addition to Halo 5 has been taken from another shooter. Yet there are a very few additions that seem to be original AND beneficial to the game. Notice that the "changes" such as static weapon spawns, reduced aim assist, nading weapons, etc. are getting universal praise? That's because they are original ideas that benefit Halo. Almost no modern FPS use static on-map weapon spawns, so its something that customers will come to Halo for. It's market niche. Almost no modern FPS have the ability to grenade weapons to you, so having that "feature" in Halo 5 makes it different and gives it a niche. The Hydra is an amazing addition to Halo because it is unique in it's function. The way you have to "hook shot" with it is skillful AND original. It's damn cool actually. These are the types of things that NOBODY will hate on or accuse you of copying. I wish Halo 5 had more of these types of additions.

 

You can get annoyed at the whole "CoD fixation" thing, but its not just Beyond, its every community saying the same thing, and its for good reason:

 

Halo 4 introduced Weapon loadouts, "killstreaks" (ordinance), removed on-map weapons, included JIP, etc. and all of those things were hated by the majority of fans. These were all "CoD" things.

 

Halo 5 is now implementing ADS, spartan chatter, clambering, thruster, ground pound, sprint is returning, etc. Thats a LOT of features from CoD being thrown at us. Like I mentioned earlier, some of these additions are justified and beneficial, yet a lot of these just feel like rip-offs or copycats. That's where the whole "CoD" fixation is coming from. People see almost every addition Halo 5 brings and coincidentally they are things that already exist in CoD. CoD is also the most popular console FPS, so no wonder these fixations are happening.

 

People want to see additions that have never been done before, things that Halo 1-3 introduced. Here's an example. Custom Game browsers. Fans have been asking for this for YEARS. Custom games are something Halo does that others don't. Why not add in a feature thats never been done before on console FPS and support the custom game community? NOBODY would argue this addition. It doesn't hurt any aspect of Halo. it wouldn't be a controversial addition to the frnachise. It would be like Forge and Theater - universally praised by all fans. That's just ONE example.

 

I think we all know borrowing features from other franchises is necessary and beneficial for the evolution of the genre as a whole, but there needs to be a better balance between these "borrowed" additions and original additions. 

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A button glitch would be just as situational as say ground pound though. Every spartan ability is situation.

 

An mid-combat offensive option is what I mean. Thruster is primarily a mid-combat defensive option.

 

None of the other abilities are useful mid-combat apart from to aid escape. Thus there are limited combat options, the rest are all used to enter or escape combat, but not for use during. I think that's why Thrust is mostly accepted by the competitive community because it can be used in combat, giving combat depth.

 

Adding a skill-requiring offensive mid-combat option would increase combat options and balance all of the defensive abilities. Yes Ground Pound and Charge are technically offensive, but they are so situational that they hardly get used, and for me personally I used GP to escape more than I used it to kill. Their overall, averaged affect on actual combat is very minimal, compared to Thrust, BXB, BXR, and BLB. I hope that makes more sense?

 

And to clarify, combat options are thing like Shooting, Meleeing, Ducking, Jumping, Strafing, Grenading. Thrust can be added to that list, but the others can't really as they are mostly mobility abilities (not combat abilities). We need more than just spamming the melee button in CQC.

 

Thoughts on adding a mid-combat offensive option @Sal1ent?

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Because requesting things from 343 has worked so well in the past.

And even if no sprint was used in tournaments, we still had a split community.

343 has done pretty well with listening to the overall community. The divide won't be that much and the competitive crowd always sort of siphoned itself off anyways. Although ideally you want a streamlined experience throughout all modes, at least when it comes to core gameplay. This is done obviously for accessibility to the scene and then that leads to viewers.

 

So if we can get a streamlined experience that would be nice. Sprint I guarantee needs to be in other modes so the best bet would be tweaks for HCS. But if it comes to it, the split won't be that big if we get a NS HCS.

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@@Sal1ent

 

Nice responses. No questions here, just saying that I like what I'm hearing more and more when y'all frame it in the context of game development/pro-level feedback. My opinion on Halo 5 hasn't changed much since I haven't played it post-beta--I still have my issues with some things--but my hype meter (and respect meter) is building the more I hear the tweaking that's going on behind the scenes and the reasoning. Nicely done.

 

EDIT: Huh, intentional button-combo Spartan abilities? That might be something to look into sometime. Just a thought.

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I don't know how you don't see the tradeoff? You run and shoot at the cost of not moving as quickly, or you move quicker but you have no chance of fighting back and doing more damage, possibly helping your team take him down or taking him down yourself if the opponent chokes.

 

Getting away is easier if you sprint, but then you don't hurt any enemies. You may not be dying, therefore not penalizing your team, but you're not assisting your team by dealing damage.

I'm saying the trade off doesn't add any new tactics, or enhance the game, everything sprint accomplishes could already be accomplished before, it's pointless, you could just be fast to begin with and shoot at the same time and the same amount of strategy would be there, if you wanted to just solely run away, you would strong side, sprinting is just essentially strong siding on crack.

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343 has done pretty well with listening to the overall community.

 

Yet there are still mechanics that break the game.

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Because requesting things from 343 has worked so well in the past.

And even if no sprint was used in tournaments, we still had a split community.

 

youre right, there's and esport audience and then there's not one. whats your point?

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youre right, there's and esport audience and then there's not one. whats your point?

My point is that we'd have two different games which we already had in Reach. I don't think I have to explain why this is bad for the competitive community and also new players.

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The second concern relates to the new movement options.  I am not opposed to clamber; I won't complain about that one.  But ground pound, charge, and slide - to me - are not particularly valuable adds.  Ground pound / charge are kind of cool when they work, but the usage is so situational that it doesn't add much to gameplay.  I would prefer time had been spent adding a quick-180 capability (useful, for example, when being shot from behind), a wall push-off (no additional vertical, just rapid direction change), using thrusters to get an extra upward boost after a jump (pseudo double-jump), being able to crouch-thrust through small openings (giving some neat map design options), and any other possibilities.

 

The reason is because ground pound is the attack.  You - the designer - have already decided how the players will use it.  There is one situation in which it is useful.  The other options mentioned above allow the player to use them creatively.  And that is a lot more satisfying.  Perhaps the upward thrust could be combined with a rapid 180 to access a level of the map in a way unanticipated by the enemy.  Perhaps crouch-thrusting could be used mid-air to avoid that last BR headshot when charging with a sword.  Perhaps the wall-push could be used for a ninja or an added strafing element . . . there are lots of possibilities.  If you wish to expand the movement options, give us things like that.  Those enhance the replayability of the game.  Ground pound does not.  It's a brief crowd-pleaser; nothing more.  And to achieve that, it adds to the complexity of the controls.  This is not a good tradeoff from an accesibility standpoint.

 

 

This is all pure gold. 

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My point is that we'd have two different games which we already had in Reach. I don't think I have to explain why this is bad for the competitive community and also new players.

that wont be the case here. josh said the maps will play just fine without sprint, so technically if someone plays with and without... the difference will be subtle.

 

it wont be like halo 2 and halo 3 where the diff between vanilla and esports was night and day.

 

not the case with halo 5, at least not yet.

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that wont be the case here. josh said the maps will play just fine without sprint, so technically if someone plays with and without... the difference will be subtle.

 

it wont be like halo 2 and halo 3 where the diff between vanilla and esports was night and day.

 

What are you even talking about? Having sprint in one gametype and no sprint in the other is already a big difference.

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The second concern relates to the new movement options.  I am not opposed to clamber; I won't complain about that one.  But ground pound, charge, and slide - to me - are not particularly valuable adds.  Ground pound / charge are kind of cool when they work, but the usage is so situational that it doesn't add much to gameplay.  I would prefer time had been spent adding a quick-180 capability (useful, for example, when being shot from behind), a wall push-off (no additional vertical, just rapid direction change), using thrusters to get an extra upward boost after a jump (pseudo double-jump), being able to crouch-thrust through small openings (giving some neat map design options), and any other possibilities.

 

The reason is because ground pound is the attack.  You - the designer - have already decided how the players will use it.  There is one situation in which it is useful.  The other options mentioned above allow the player to use them creatively.  And that is a lot more satisfying.  Perhaps the upward thrust could be combined with a rapid 180 to access a level of the map in a way unanticipated by the enemy.  Perhaps crouch-thrusting could be used mid-air to avoid that last BR headshot when charging with a sword.  Perhaps the wall-push could be used for a ninja or an added strafing element . . . there are lots of possibilities.  If you wish to expand the movement options, give us things like that.  Those enhance the replayability of the game.  Ground pound does not.  It's a brief crowd-pleaser; nothing more.  And to achieve that, it adds to the complexity of the controls.  This is not a good tradeoff from an accesibility standpoint.

 

Also quoting for truth

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The answer to your question is simple and he has answered it a million times.  They are not making the game just for us.  There are other communities and players they need to consider as well.

 

I am not sure why most of this community is not understanding this.

 

Yeah, they should consider the millions of players who quit the franchise because of sprint and all the other game-breaking gimmicks.

 

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I like Thruster, but the main problem with it is that combined with Sprint makes escaping from fights too easy.

 

I would like it to be balanced this way, when a player have low shields:

 

- Disable Sprinting for several seconds after using Thruster.

- Deplete/Reset Thruster cooldown if player is Sprinting.

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What are you even talking about? Having sprint in one gametype and no sprint in the other is already a big difference.

Explain to me how that's a big difference? If the maps are not affected by sprint or not sprint...I don't understand why it's a big deal.

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@Sal1ent

 

Another example of this is clamber. This one is more arguable because it does affect gameplay. You may tell us that its to help "immersion" or help the "fluidity" of the game.

 

@Sal1ent

 

Ugh, it doesn't even make movement more fluid... Infact, it's a downgrade in every single fashion from previous games all to appease cod kids (Yea, that's right, CoD. Don't insult us by claiming a "cod fixation" when any intelligent person knows things being added to Halo only exist because you want cod kids to play it. News flash, they never will and all it accomplishes is chasing away people who want to play HALO). How can we go from being able to make jump ups from any direction with never needing to drop our weapon and now we have to turn to virtually every single jump, stop shooting just so we can get to a slightly higher location. How is that in any way, shape or form more fluid? How does that make us feel "more like a spartan"?

 

And by far the most offensive thing about "clamber" is the fact that 99% of jumps are deliberately tuned to require it's use.

 

 

Explain to me how that's a big difference? If the maps are not affected by sprint or not sprint...I don't understand why it's a big deal.

 

You actually believe that? That really is sad...

 

We've seen with our own eyes the maps are gigantic due to sprint. Base speed would have to be increased to absurd levels to make them play properly.

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