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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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The usefulness of the thruster decreases exponentially with how long gunfights drag out and the range at which they occur, and due to a large number of factors, most fights in modern Halo take place at a good distance, which makes for slow gameplay. 

 

I'm more bitter about the fact that the thruster isn't a creative gameplay option, rather it's something that you are EXPECTED to do. You need a creative framework for the entire system of combat, not just one cool option. Like I said in my beta review video, if Halo had a baby with Virtual-On, that would be incredible. 

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@@Sal1ent

 

A bit behind this discussion regarding shooting while thrusting, but I wanted to address your comment that it was "intentionally balanced to use in combat".

 

Disabling a player from shooting during any movement oriented action isn't balance, it's just a limitation. Thrusting doesn't make a weapon stronger, it only enables a more spatially intelligent player to win a 1v1 fight in the same way that fast strafing does. It creates a stronger player through skill of application in conjunction with other in game elements, not some arbitrary number in the game- (balance vs. limitation)

 

Using thruster is just as spontaneous as jumping, which is another form of spontaneous acceleration that has famously created skill gaps in individual play in Halo. Adding an additional dynamic to movement without sacrificing (but rather enhancing) the way Halo has always played is a perfect example of your team's philosophy applied correctly. With a more utilitarian, offensively oriented thruster pack, you are creating an even greater skill gap, without taking away the core experience. Players like to be in control, to be offensive, and to play a fast paced game. Its a small change that will make a big impact to the flow of Halo 5 at every skill level. THAT is all we can ask for.

 

Please consider it.

 

I concur.  Thruster was the one AA from H4 that I loved and hoped would be retained . . . but with the modification that you could still shoot.  I would have preferred that to the ground pound / hover.

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@@Sal1ent @@Frankie

 

 

What will be done about Halo having too much aim-assist and bullet magnetism? Halo has always been a skill full game requires the player to use a lot skill to get their frags. Newer Halo titles have abused the amount of aim-assist and bullet magnetism present in them. Lets remember the Halo 4 beam rifle...

 

Also, strafing NEEDS to be apart of Halo again. Can the movement acceleration be adjusted so that the player can make quick responsive strafes?

 

 

I understand you don't want to change "features" int he game, but the two things I just described above will be unnoticeable to ALL factions of Halo.  

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We've deliberately created an experience where team plays a more important role than in the past. This was a goal when we began making the game. I speculate that some of you may view that shift as detrimental to what you consider best for competitive play because you would prefer the game to focus almost exclusively on individual skill. 

 

Short question: Why?

Especially with how your ranking system works I think empowering the individual would be a much better approach.

When you're not expected to be able to outplay your opponents on your own and almost always need the help of your teammates it's next to impossible to carry your team.

It's not like teamwork disappears just because players are strong on their own.

 

 

 

The maps will play fine with sprint disabled, particularly now that the base movement speed has been raised.

 

 

So nothing stands in the way of just taking it out altogether :kappa:

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@@Sal1ent Another Halo 5 suggestion. Don't stop player movement when checking the scoreboard. Make it more clear who is dead and who is alive when checking the scoreboard. Move the scoreboard out of the center of the screen. 

 

Here are my old suggestions I posted 

 

 I have a few suggestions for Halo 5. It would be very cool to bring back the Halo CE pistol as a map pick up legendary weapon. It would be cool to have customized logo's for team play online and for the HCS. Halo 5 needs a instant replay feature added to the spectator mode. While watching the HCS tournament there were so many awesome plays that could have only been seen unless you were watching live or scavenge through hours of footage after the vid is archived. The casters should be able to just replay highlights as they happen or right after the game has ended. They did replay one highlight but they spent 10 min fast forwarding a film to watch a 10 second clip. Just looks unprofessional for a esport game. The amount of games it takes to be ranked should be raised to 20 with the first 10 not counting against you. No one should be ranked on a game they don't know how to play yet. It takes about 10 games just to get the feel for it. The max rank level achievable should be Onyx. No one should get the max rank in 10 games. Make them work for it. Keep people playing. This will still separate the good from the bad some what. Halo 5 visuals look very bad on recorded video or a live stream due to it being very dark or very bright or very foggy. If it is to be a esport that should be taken into consideration. One last thing bring back clans.

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Thruster is much more disruptive and unpredictable than jumping. You move more quickly, you can use it in any direction, and you travel pretty far when you do. The delay is very slight and it's been balanced against pro-level reaction times. We'll continue tuning this up until release, and possibly beyond.

 

It's disruptive for both parties though, that's its inherent trade off. Another thing we've brought up around here is that it's distance is far, one of the things that makes it too easy to use defensively, maybe limiting it's distance traveled to equal that of height covered when jumping, and reducing aim assist, or magnetism and increasing the speed at which the player thrusts to make it harder for the shooter, but not impossible, meaning only good players are going to use it to its maximum effectiveness.

 

And as for increased teamwork, that's fine, as long as players aren't forced to work as a team because individually it's impossible to do well, having a game that highlights individual skill doesn't nullify team work, but having a game that highlights team work can nullify individual skill. There are multiple ways to promote team work, power ups, power positions, weapons, it doesn't have to be encouraged by the traits of the player.

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You can focus on creating a competitive game that balances individual skill and team skill. Halo CE's individual skill was very high, but so is the team skill in ways that are different from other Halos. Halo 2 had a very high level of team skill, but still gave the individual some power and still had a good balance between the two. From there out individual skill has been overshadowed by a forced team skill. When I say forced, I mean if you don't play peak a boo/bait and switch team BR shooting then you won't win. It's how team games are "supposed" to be played, but also because there wouldn't be any other way to play them. As an individual, you are too weak in later Halos do to do anything significant unless you have a power weapon and their entire team seems to be not paying attention.

 

I certainly wasn't expecting a full focus on team skill and lack of individual skill when Halo 5 was announced to be going back to an arena shooter. I mean I guess technically it kinda is but it does seem way more of a squad based shooter than anything. I know that with bad teammates in Halo CE, it's an uphill battle but I at least have a chance as an individual to control some of the pace of the game.

 

I just hope somehow through the given options or modders we are able to somehow tweak or influence the balance of skill in this game to reflect a better individual vs team skill balance.

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The maps will play fine with sprint disabled, particularly now that the base movement speed has been raised.

 

 

 

 

thank the gaming gods.

 

well this should end any further arguing about sprint.

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my vote is for  allow shoot while you sprint and thrust ,  is a simple thing that would make the game an arena shooter again with original features ( the premise of halo ) ,  i don´t see why not :7  ( is fun , offensive, inmersive and unique)

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@@Sal1ent, great post. Much appreciate the response.

 

Can I touch on some of my concerns with Clamber and Stabilizers?

 

Both of these abilities, in my opinion, suffer from the same design choice. I believe they both have a ton of competitive merit but in their current state they become redundant and reduce the skill gap.

 

The design I'm referring to is 'Hold to Clamber' and 'Auto Stabilize'

 

These two options completely remove the necessity of understanding the mechanics. I had both disabled during the beta.

 

Stabilize in particular (due to its somewhat difficult command input on the controller) seemed like an awesome tech-skill that players could use to diversify Halo 5's gunplay and strategies. But if it is automatic, what is the point of even having it? There is no learning curve with an automatic ability. Instead of using it to gain the upper hand or strategically, Auto-Stabilize holds the players hand while they are aiming during vertical combat. Perhaps you could shed some light on why this was designed this way. I encourage Stabilizers to be assigned for MANUAL use only.

 

Same goes for Clamber. With Hold to Clamber on by default (or even an option in the first place), you simply introduce a transparent cosmetic mechanic that requires no skill. If hold to clamber weren't and option, players would have to practice the correct patience to hit the jump button during the correct window of opportunity to land the clamber (this window and timing could be tuned). At the moment, you are making jumps easier to make by having this automatic option available. I enjoyed clamber but I don't see any purpose behind its inclusion unless there is a skill based component to it.

 

These are just my opinions, I appreciate any response you may have :)

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@@Sal1ent

 

Any chance the team could stream some pro team vs dev matches? I think it'd be incredibly interesting to see how the people who have had the most time with the game play and use the new mechanics. For instance, almost no one was using the Hydra properly when it was first included. For me, it took Quinn posting some clips of him using it before it clicked.

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So we agree you can run, and you can fight. If you choose not to sprint, and just keep your normal walking pace, you can still shoot while trying to get away. That's a choice. You can get away in the most effective way possible (sprint/thruster), run while doing some damage (walk away and shoot), or you can just fight (well, shoot).

 

You can technically strongside in other Halo games to run away without fighting, but I would argue it's not nearly as important as using sprint/thruster.

running away is running away, I don't see difference in running away slowly and running away quickly and not shooting, they both have the capacity to accomplish the same result, the latter just makes the same tactic easier, making sprint redundant. If you see that as a choice, then fine but I don't consider it a significant one, if one at all.

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We've deliberately created an experience where team plays a more important role than in the past. This was a goal when we began making the game. I speculate that some of you may view that shift as detrimental to what you consider best for competitive play because you would prefer the game to focus almost exclusively on individual skill. 

 

If the goal of all the movement mechanics is to make people feel more like a Spartan, then why would you make it so they can't kill effectively. Those two seem very counter intuitive. If I need a team mate to help me with the majority of my kills, then I won't feel powerful and in turn I won't feel like a Spartan. Being a powerful wrecking force that can hold his own against 2+ people at once makes people feel powerful. Thrusting around while Sprinting doesn't make me feel powerful at all.

 

Also, it's not so much that the game should revolve around individual skill, but the game should allow the individual skill to shine if it's there. With all the different mobility options that limit an individuals ability to attack, it's a run around circus that makes it extra difficult to finish off players who put themselves in a bad situation to begin with. From my standpoint, if the ability is used to escape, then you should be able to shoot with it. Sprinting away, thrusting away, clambering up walls, all of them shouldn't limit your ability to shoot because then the pursuer won't have to interrupt his attack just to keep up with someone who has no intention of fighting. It's the constant running away that really slows down the entire game for everyone and it's the most annoying thing about Modern Halo. I literally put the beta down after a week because I couldn't take it. I wanted to throw my controller through my tv. Games are supposed to be tough and challenging, but not infuriating.

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Thrusters are the only ability I would like to see not changed/removed from the game. I hated H4 thrusters but the first person thrusters made me a fan. I have seen far too many clips showing how thrusters can be used creatively and situational that can allow an individuals skill to shine. I think not being able to shoot while thrusting is a pretty good trade off. The other abilities I could do without or maybe deal with if there is some serious tweeking.

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Thrusters are the only ability I would like to see not changed/removed from the game. I hated H4 thrusters but the first person thrusters made me a fan. I have seen far too many clips showing how thrusters can be used creatively and situational that can allow an individuals skill to shine. I think not being able to shoot while thrusting is a pretty good trade off. The other abilities I could do without or maybe deal with if there is some serious tweeking.

Doogles above points out my thoughts on the thruster.  If someone can use it to escape, then someone else should be able to use it while shooting.  That is the proper balance (in my opinion).

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Doogles above points out my thoughts on the thruster. If someone can use it to escape, then someone else should be able to use it while shooting. That is the proper balance (in my opinion).

That very well may be better balanced. I dont think so, but I have only used it as it is.

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When you empower individuals so that they can hold down an area or time a power weapon without needing another BR to assist them, teamwork is allowed to evolve beyond teamshooting.

 

When you increase individual skill, you do not lose teamwork. In fact, you enrich the teamwork meta. Why is this competitive model inferior?

 

Furthermore, it is not fun to feel weak in a video game. Players feel weak when teamshooting is absolutely necessary.

 

yes, i would agree, yoy wwnt teamwork but forcing players to have to depend on teammates to just get kills defeats the purpose of individual skill.

 

halo ce and counter strike are best examples of high teamwork games with individuals able to fiend for themselves.

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thank the gaming gods.

 

well this should end any further arguing about sprint.

 

Hell no. We will just have Reach all over again. A good game with our own settings, but a bad default game (that will be used for tournaments).

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forcing players to have to depend on teammates to just get kills defeats the purpose of individual skill.

 

Not only that, it limits teamwork since it isn't allowed to evolve past teamshooting. The meta never changes.

 

Hindering individuals benefits no side of the game- individual skill or teamwork.

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Am I really the only one who thinks that adding a close combat button combo akin to bxb/bxr to balance thrust, sprinting melees, cqc power weapons, and overall to give more option to the player is the way to go?

 

Like Lemon said, thrust shouldn't be expected to be used, there should be options. And no, none of the other spartan abilities currently function as combat options - they are all situational.

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Am I really the only one who thinks that adding a close combat button combo akin to bxb/bxr to balance thrust, sprinting melees, cqc power weapons, and overall to give more option to the player is the way to go?

 

Like Lemon said, thrust shouldn't be expected to be used, there should be options. And no, none of the other spartan abilities currently function as combat options - they are all situational.

A button glitch would be just as situational as say ground pound though. Every spartan ability is situation.

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Hell no. We will just have Reach all over again. A good game with our own settings, but a bad default game (that will be used for tournaments).

start requesting hcs be no sprint. simple solution.

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