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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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On 12/21/2019 at 11:02 PM, SpitFlame said:

I don't understand, why replace anything? Why not just leave in every gametype? Is it to not spread the population too thin or something? If so that's stupid. I remember I really liked Halo 5's Grifball, but they removed it and I've never played it since.

Grifball was permanent for a very long time and was consistently H5's least popular playlist. #1 example of how too many playlists is a problem.

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Tried to give Mythic another shot but the cancerous aiming and atrocious MM makes it impossible. If only this project was made in a game that wasn't built in a literal turd of an engine. It's a shame because dammit these maps are so fucking good.

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Finally played Mythic, barring test matches, matching champs, too. As I thought, literally made for BKs, lmao. Why the fuck is this ranked. Why do we have autos, swords and fucking hammers, when HCS stopped putting them in years ago. Why did we use the H2BR. It's an inconsistent piece of garbage, at worst. And simultaneously will aim for you at its best. There should never be a lobby where every kid has a perfect. But it's happened here within my first games.

Gonna ream the PISS out of Oracle. CTF. It's ass on that map. The best gametype in the series, competitively, and it's broken, here. You don't spawn on your base, you have immediate portal access OUT of your base to the enemy's if you do, and shotguns spawn. So people, like me, hahaa, are just gonna abuse shotguns and watch portals so people don't flag hop. There's a reason we removed bullshit like this from Halo: Reach, as bad as that game could be. Because it's an unbeatable, braindead strat. Portals as a whole are stupid. Why are we killing people and enabling them to just regain map presence without any effort? Same for side spawns. You spawn in a dominant position half the time. That's shit.

Vengeance is another level of bad. Dunno who thought rockets in CQC was okay. But it's a thing. And it's bad. Nades are also pretty dumbly prevalent on that map, especially for KotH. Lines of sight are fucked. And there's a lot of unused space that just shouldn't exist. Poor lines of sight resulting in dumb engagement mentalities where you're forced to improperly over commit to anything to do shit. Meaning you will be auto-nuked provided you challenge. So base actions will just nuke you. Which couples with rockets. Five feet worth of angles to peek. And you'll be merked by a rocket in that space and time. Hell, even top mid/p2/car, a dominant region in most Midship esque maps, has no actual dominant lines of sight. Worse than Zealot, and that map SUCKS.

Played the Lockout inspired map too. First, why the fuck do we design maps around falling hazards. Shit's gotta stop. Second. Why in the fuck do we have so many power weapons on that map. Literally one for every niche of that map. Sniper, shotgun, sword. Reminder that swords and SMGs were removed from HCS for a reason. And shotguns were replaced by scatters a majority of the time. We shouldn't have power weapons that can dominate every niche.

Also love how thrust means nothing. Unironically should not exist, lol. May as well not. It's a detriment over an actual advantage because your thrust length is shorter than it takes to tug off the enemy's reticle. It doesn't actually do anything and just leaves you unable to shoot. It's not useful for movement, too. Dunno why it was even implemented. 

In short. H2BR unironically aims for itself. Pickups are undeniably ass for a ranked playlist. CTF and spawns suck, fix them. Maps are pretty toss, probably won't be fixed. This playlist actually doesn't learn from past mistakes that old games learned from. It doubled down on them. It's literally casual social shit, just ranked. It's almost offensive to me. Almost.

Makes me question why this doesn't get reamed for easiness, but H2A does. Who the fuck knows anymore, lol. Why we think this is good should be answered first.

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I also love losing a perfection to an unironic Silver 4, because he spawns on me with my back turned in Slayer, and there was no conceivable way to do anything to retaliate. Goes 5/20, with 9 of his deaths being a result of me. But gets a free kill, as I can't actually fight back or escape. Good game.

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6 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I also love losing a perfection to an unironic Silver 4, because he spawns on me with my back turned in Slayer, and there was no conceivable way to do anything to retaliate. Goes 5/20, with 9 of his deaths being a result of me. But gets a free kill, as I can't actually fight back or escape. Good game.

lol die mad.

1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Why do we have autos, swords and fucking hammers, when HCS stopped putting them in years ago.

I haven't played it yet but hearing this is hilarious.

Also the H2BR is dogshit in H5. I like having the old aesthetic but should be the classic BR if they're going that way, not the 200km radius headshot H2BR.

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1 minute ago, Shekkles said:

lol die mad.

I haven't played it yet but hearing this is hilarious.

Also the H2BR is dogshit in H5. I like having the old aesthetic but should be the classic BR if they're going that way, not the 200km radius headshot H2BR.

I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed.

Also, fucking, dude. There's NEEDLERS. And dual casters. AND DUAL SNIPERS. Weapons based on Halo 5's movement.

What the fuck is this playlist, unironically. It's bad.

On THAT, why do we not have stabilization BRs. It's harder to use, is more consistent, and fits the same role. The H2BR is asscheeks. 

Also, just played Goliath. Holy SHIT is that one of the worst maps in Halo history. HOW the FUCK is that in game.

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You can talk shit about the H2BR and the meme weapons all day but leave Goliath alone. That would would be gold if it was ported to a good game.

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7 minutes ago, Basu said:

You can talk shit about the H2BR and the meme weapons all day but leave Goliath alone. That would would be gold if it was ported to a good game.

Maybe in Halo 5, where you have movement, because it's so brokenly vertical with so many rooms and clamber spots. But it's terrible in any game where you don't. Like this. Actual ass. 

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Yes because vertical maps work best when people have infinite access to top off spawn by using a gimmicky ability. See Solitary in unranked Reach, truly a masterpiece of a map.

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Also, fucking, dude. There's NEEDLERS. And dual casters. AND DUAL SNIPERS. Weapons based on Halo 5's movement.

NEEDLERS. 

It's almost 2020 and we have Needler in a competitive playlist.

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3 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Finally played Mythic, barring test matches, matching champs, too. As I thought, literally made for BKs, lmao. Why the fuck is this ranked. Why do we have autos, swords and fucking hammers, when HCS stopped putting them in years ago. Why did we use the H2BR. It's an inconsistent piece of garbage, at worst. And simultaneously will aim for you at its best. There should never be a lobby where every kid has a perfect. But it's happened here within my first games.

Gonna ream the PISS out of Oracle. CTF. It's ass on that map. The best gametype in the series, competitively, and it's broken, here. You don't spawn on your base, you have immediate portal access OUT of your base to the enemy's if you do, and shotguns spawn. So people, like me, hahaa, are just gonna abuse shotguns and watch portals so people don't flag hop. There's a reason we removed bullshit like this from Halo: Reach, as bad as that game could be. Because it's an unbeatable, braindead strat. Portals as a whole are stupid. Why are we killing people and enabling them to just regain map presence without any effort? Same for side spawns. You spawn in a dominant position half the time. That's shit.

Vengeance is another level of bad. Dunno who thought rockets in CQC was okay. But it's a thing. And it's bad. Nades are also pretty dumbly prevalent on that map, especially for KotH. Lines of sight are fucked. And there's a lot of unused space that just shouldn't exist. Poor lines of sight resulting in dumb engagement mentalities where you're forced to improperly over commit to anything to do shit. Meaning you will be auto-nuked provided you challenge. So base actions will just nuke you. Which couples with rockets. Five feet worth of angles to peek. And you'll be merked by a rocket in that space and time. Hell, even top mid/p2/car, a dominant region in most Midship esque maps, has no actual dominant lines of sight. Worse than Zealot, and that map SUCKS.

Played the Lockout inspired map too. First, why the fuck do we design maps around falling hazards. Shit's gotta stop. Second. Why in the fuck do we have so many power weapons on that map. Literally one for every niche of that map. Sniper, shotgun, sword. Reminder that swords and SMGs were removed from HCS for a reason. And shotguns were replaced by scatters a majority of the time. We shouldn't have power weapons that can dominate every niche.

Also love how thrust means nothing. Unironically should not exist, lol. May as well not. It's a detriment over an actual advantage because your thrust length is shorter than it takes to tug off the enemy's reticle. It doesn't actually do anything and just leaves you unable to shoot. It's not useful for movement, too. Dunno why it was even implemented. 

In short. H2BR unironically aims for itself. Pickups are undeniably ass for a ranked playlist. CTF and spawns suck, fix them. Maps are pretty toss, probably won't be fixed. This playlist actually doesn't learn from past mistakes that old games learned from. It doubled down on them. It's literally casual social shit, just ranked. It's almost offensive to me. Almost.

Makes me question why this doesn't get reamed for easiness, but H2A does. Who the fuck knows anymore, lol. Why we think this is good should be answered first.

 

2 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I also love losing a perfection to an unironic Silver 4, because he spawns on me with my back turned in Slayer, and there was no conceivable way to do anything to retaliate. Goes 5/20, with 9 of his deaths being a result of me. But gets a free kill, as I can't actually fight back or escape. Good game.

Good. Let the hate flow through you. I can feel your anguh. It gives you focus... makes you strongah.

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25 minutes ago, Mr Grim said:

Good. Let the hate flow through you. I can feel your anguh. It gives you focus... makes you strongah.

I mean it's Halo 5

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55 minutes ago, S0UL FLAME said:

Image result for well there it is

Lmao. The effects make this fucken' art.

1 hour ago, Basu said:

Yes because vertical maps work best when people have infinite access to top off spawn by using a gimmicky ability. See Solitary in unranked Reach, truly a masterpiece of a map.

Yeah, you'd be able to properly fly to people and you'd make use of the verticality for all the right reasons. Running around on it with 5's default movement feels 10x more natural. Especially with the weirdly exposed open walkways and spaces and conveniently clamberable ledges. Shit you just can't move in normally. Mythic makes it play super slow because you'll just be merked for movement with a piss-easy gun.

Solitary is bad because of its back hallways, even if jetpacks can be bollocks. The height isn't as much an issue as the layout itself is. Much like Goliath is bad because every room may as well be equivalent to those hallways.

There's also a binary on it, lol.

1 hour ago, Mr Grim said:

 

Good. Let the hate flow through you. I can feel your anguh. It gives you focus... makes you strongah.

Thanks, Mr. Sidious.

1 hour ago, Shekkles said:

NEEDLERS. 

It's almost 2020 and we have Needler in a competitive playlist.

I feel sarcasm. 

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20 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Solitary is bad because of its back hallways, even if jetpacks can be bollocks. The height isn't as much an issue as the layout itself is. Much like Goliath is bad because every room may as well be equivalent to those hallways.

I imagine the version that has the blocked off hallways would be just as bad with jet pack. 

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Just now, Nokt said:

I imagine the version that has the blocked off hallways would be just as bad with jet pack. 

Sure, but the hallways sure blew a fuckload of dick more than just ascending the map did. I can hear and see where a jetpacker is coming from. But you'll have kids sneak around a maze of corridors with shotguns, just corner camping if you back down a bit. Or move to bait a new angle.

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5 hours ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Played the Lockout inspired map too. First, why the fuck do we design maps around falling hazards. Shit's gotta stop. Second. Why in the fuck do we have so many power weapons on that map. Literally one for every niche of that map. Sniper, shotgun, sword. Reminder that swords and SMGs were removed from HCS for a reason. And shotguns were replaced by scatters a majority of the time. We shouldn't have power weapons that can dominate every niche.

First: Because they influence movement and positioning, the goal of a map pool is to offer different experiences with each map. Some gametypes played in "competitive" Halo also relied on that in the past, mainly oddball.

Second: 3 power weapons per map is not something I would call "so many" with 8 players in mind, sure the sword isn't my fav thing to appear on any map but using HCS decisions for your reasoning is just as off I would say.
 

From the limited time I saw you commenting on maps and settings I feel like you would enjoy sprinting/thrusting around on a map pool made up of 7 midship remixes and non of them should have power weapons that are any stronger than the pistol you spawn with.
Feel free to correct me if I got that wrong but to me that does sound pretty boring no matter how fair or "competitive" it appears to be.

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40 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

I feel sarcasm. 

I am but a humble purveyor. 

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1 hour ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Thanks, Mr. Sidious.

Hey that's Dr. To you. I didn't spend 8 years in sith medical school to be called 'Mr'

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2 hours ago, Warlord Wossman said:

First: Because they influence movement and positioning, the goal of a map pool is to offer different experiences with each map. Some gametypes played in "competitive" Halo also relied on that in the past, mainly oddball.

Second: 3 power weapons per map is not something I would call "so many" with 8 players in mind, sure the sword isn't my fav thing to appear on any map but using HCS decisions for your reasoning is just as off I would say.
 

From the limited time I saw you commenting on maps and settings I feel like you would enjoy sprinting/thrusting around on a map pool made up of 7 midship remixes and non of them should have power weapons that are any stronger than the pistol you spawn with.
Feel free to correct me if I got that wrong but to me that does sound pretty boring no matter how fair or "competitive" it appears to be.

Oddball, something that's barely played competitively, now. And if that's your goal in a map pool, I'd argue that's flawed. More so for ranked playlists. Because, again, ranked. It shouldn't be about offering "new experiences". It should be about ensuring viability in a comp setting. I don't wanna play bullshit with a rank attached to it for variety. I want to play THE BEST you have, and ONLY the best. 

Second, not 8. 4. We're talking as if you split this between 4 of your teammates. To reference how many exist. Because, remember, you don't always have maps set up to where both sides get say, a dual snipe. So you can more reliably stack the weapons in your favor off a beginning rush. And, you know, describe your pickups by how many teammates it takes to reliably hold/use them. If you're nearing the point where your entire team can't reliably use/hold them all without swapping or holding them, that's a problem. Hence why going to 3/4 is a lot. Because on top of just basic juggling being a problem, you can have a team all using stronger, straight upgrades compared to your team. Of course, you know, it's just as ridiculous to say 3 or 4 players, of 8, half in your game all have upgrade weapons.

How would using HCS reasoning be off? Wouldn't decisions made by THE playlist based on settings we competitively run for money be what we'd want to follow for other ranked playlists we newly introduce, ideally? That's my thing. This shit is ranked. And it's straight up adding shit that was removed from actual comp for being dumbly bullshit, under circumstances that make it dumber bullshit. To me, that doesn't deserve to be in the playlist, let alone a rank. This is making grave errors by repeating mistakes we actually refined and rectified at one point.

And that last paragraph's a hyperbole. I do enjoy Halo 5's movement. But. Ideally I'd just have good maps, movement, and a good utility. With little in the way of uncompetitive bullshit so I can properly duel other players. It could literally be a one map, one gun game. If that's what's competitive, so be it. I just never wanna deal with shit, lol. Make it as even as possible if you're promoting a comp experience. Don't fluff me. If that's boring to you, that's fine. I don't really care. I just want competitive. And competitive isn't for everyone.

Here's my thing past that, and this is an unrelated tangent. WHY should pickups be stronger than the weapon you spawn with? This has always fucked with me since Halo 5's launch when we lambasted the settings of the game, because rifle pickups existed as straight upgrades, but for some reason we love weapons that are more powerful and present under the same circumstances. It isn't fully relevant, I'm just curious as to how a weapon you're only picking up and holding for a few minutes per game suddenly adds to the "fun" of the game. Just something to consider or think on.

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14 minutes ago, TheIcePrincess said:

Oddball, something that's barely played competitively, now. And if that's your goal in a map pool, I'd argue that's flawed. More so for ranked playlists. Because, again, ranked. It shouldn't be about offering "new experiences". It should be about ensuring viability in a comp setting. I don't wanna play bullshit with a rank attached to it for variety. I want to play THE BEST you have, and ONLY the best. 

Second, not 8. 4. We're talking as if you split this between 4 of your teammates. To reference how many exist. Because, remember, you don't always have maps set up to where both sides get say, a dual snipe. So you can more reliably stack the weapons in your favor off a beginning rush. And, you know, describe your pickups by how many teammates it takes to reliably hold/use them. If you're nearing the point where your entire team can't reliably use/hold them all without swapping or holding them, that's a problem. Hence why going to 3/4 is a lot. Because on top of just basic juggling being a problem, you can have a team all using stronger, straight upgrades compare to your team. Of course, you know, it's just as ridiculous to say 3 or 4 players, of 8, half in your game all have upgrade weapons.

How would using HCS reasoning be off? Wouldn't decisions made by THE playlist based on settings we competitively run for money be what we'd want to follow for other ranked playlists we newly introduce, ideally? That's my thing. This shit is ranked. And it's straight up adding shit that was removed from actual comp for being dumbly bullshit, under circumstances that make it dumber bullshit. To me, that doesn't deserve to be in the playlist, let alone a rank. This is making grave errors by repeating mistakes we actually refined and rectified at one point.

And that last paragraph's a hyperbole. I do enjoy Halo 5's movement. But. Ideally I'd just have good maps, movement, and a good utility. With little in the way of uncompetitive bullshit so I can properly duel other players. It could literally be a one map, one gun game. If that's what's competitive, so be it. I just never wanna deal with shit, lol. Make it as even as possible if you're promoting a comp experience. Don't fluff me. If that's boring to you, that's fine. I don't really care. I just want competitive. And competitive isn't for everyone.

Here's my thing past that, and this is an unrelated tangent. WHY should pickups be stronger than the weapon you spawn with? This has always fucked with me since Halo 5's launch when we lambasted the settings of the game, because rifle pickups existed as straight upgrades, but for some reason we love weapons that are more powerful and present under the same circumstances. It isn't fully relevant, I'm just curious as to how a weapon you're only picking up and holding for a few minutes per game suddenly adds to the "fun" of the game. Just something to consider or think on.

I never talked about "new" experiences, I said that the goal of a map pool is to bring different stuff to the table for each map entry, otherwise there is no reason to provide multiple maps to begin with.
The fact that you constantly bring up the word competitive should get you thinking that it requires more skills and strats to be able to beat teams consistently on maps that play differently, so in a way the map pool and gametypes can ensure that the better teams have to be able to adapt to more than a single gametype on a single map which would be rather trivial.

Well you got what I meant, there are 8 players in a 4v4, you don't need to enlighten me that the size of each team is 4 people in that case.
Idk why you declare 3 or 4 players holding power weapons as ridiculous, this again to me sounds like you have a problem with people having a stronger weapon than the one you spawn with which is the nature of the game, if the weapons were weak there would be no reasons to control them and thus a team wouldn't have to move around the map since you can effectively ignore stuff that doesn't give a major advantage over using the gun you spawned with.
I can recommend looking into shooters with no items spawning on the map if it's such a big problem for you that people don't shoot each other with the guns they spawned with, it might be hard to find one with longer times to kill but many games with items spawning on the map (arena shooters) and games like Halo which are effectively a hybrid of AFPS and CoD-type game with passive health regen like to give the items that spawn on the map some advantage and value to create a control aspect which rewards movement around the map over sitting around / camping.
That is also the reason that many AFPS and Halo have TDM (team deathmatch) aka slayer played in their competitive settings because that mentioned dynamic of controlling items that spawn on the map which have a certain significance on the outcome of the game prevent the sort of camping you would get in CoD, CS, R6S etc. if your main objective was set to only getting kills.

No, just because HCS is the format played for money doesn't mean their settings ensure the most potential for competitive.
It's pretty easy to show why with a little logic and a contradiction: If I hosted a Fiesta tournament for 10 million dollars somebody could come along with your reasoning and say "oh look that is what they play in this tournament for a lot of money, surely those settings were carefully chosen with all the money on the line". I get that you personally like what they did with HCS or could see their reasoning for doing something but at the end of the day esports are often used to keep a game relevant and gain viewers on streaming platforms, it's more about promotion than crafting the perfect environment for people to compete against each other with the most skillful and fair settings.
Remember the Halo 4 FFA/1v1 worldcup? I don't think H4 BR 1v1s on Skyline with 1 concussion rifle in the middle are what many people would call ideal and yet it was taken seriously and has been played by all the pro players because they did just throw a ton of money onto it.

Again the one map one gun comment "if that's what's competitive" doesn't make a lot of sense, a lot of potential in competitive shooters besides the aim (which - let's be honest - doesn't really exist in console Halo in a way that creates a big skillgap) comes from decision making, when to have the right gun out, what angle to watch/hold, what routes to take. A lot of this stuff would get lost in a game with only a single map and gun.
I am aware you can't truely messure the competitiveness of a game in an objective unit but if you take Halo and strip away most of the guns and maps you would most likely end up with a much more bland version of it based on the lack of complexity alone. Not saying every needler or sword effectively adds to the depth of the game since some are - as you said -  not very viable in a competitive environment and purely exist to satisfy people that play campaign or the Mario Party sort of gametypes in matchmaking but most people would agree that under the line there is more to think about, more potential for strats and decisions in a game with a proper map pool and a variety of guns to control and apply in the right situation.
Ironically your comment "competitive isn't for everyone" works both ways as you seem to project your opinions as a player onto what is considered "competitive" more so than trying to view it from a more theoretical viewpoint where it's more about considering consistency, the impact of rng etc. than how the game makes you feel if you fell off the map on Lockout...

I already answered the last part of your message essentially but again it involves a dynamic where you have to give up positioning to control items which in turn gives the out of control team a chance to contest map and/or item control. Generally camping is not considered fun by most players in the gaming community and that is also why you don't see a TDM tournament in CS.
Don't want to sound rude here but if you cannot wrap your head around a design decision / mechanic this essential to the game series I wonder why you argue so much about it. I am not saying it's impossible to make a good game without that mechanic but it's part of the games identity and has been for nearly 2 decades now...

To me it honestly just sounds like Halo isn't really the right game for you, ofc I can't make that decision but that's what comes to mind when i read your posts a lot of the time. That said I have not played a lot of H5 and since that seems to be your prefered title I could be missing something you consider Halo by playing that game a lot but I think it's fair to say that the legacy of the series and its design decision can outweight most of the things in Halo 5 purely based on the fact that more games released with design decisions mentioned through my post (keep in mind I am not even a fan of most of those games, I purely base it on the number of releases rather than personal preference).

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We need to start enforcing tl:dr for anything over 2 paragraphs.

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