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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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@@TheIcePrincess People hate Fathom CTF because it's so fucking boring to watch and play that it hurts.It's not "broken" or imbalanced, it's just so bland (like H5 in general) that most people don't want it in the rotation. Of course it's better than most alternatives and with Oddball sucking, 343 being unwilling to make another HCS map and still no Forge maps on the rotation it's probably here to stay - together with some other hilariously bad gametypes - but that doesn't change the fact that Fathom CTF sucks huuuuge dick. You can pretend like it's anything close to decent, it's your opinion afterall but saying it's "good" and that people are crazy for wanting to remove it is a stretch. Again, lack of better alternatives doesn't make a bad thing good, it just makes removing/replacing it and ending up with a better outcome very hard.

Being boring doesn't make it terrible, however. You even acknowledge it's not broken or imbalanced, but also flip flop in saying it sucks huge dick. It's literally fine at the least, great at the best. It even has better alternatives, Coli CTF, and Truth. Better than it, but that doesn't make Fathom bad.

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Being boring doesn't make it terrible, however. You even acknowledge it's not broken or imbalanced, but also flip flop in saying it sucks huge dick. It's literally fine at the least, great at the best. It even has better alternatives, Coli CTF, and Truth. Better than it, but that doesn't make Fathom bad.

 

How is "it's fucking boring" to "it sucks huge dick" flip-flopping? Come on lol. And by alternatives I mean if we were to replace it, we'd have to use something like Oddball or Molten which is even worse. Fathom CTF is tolerable at best, but within the context of H5's never-ending laundry list of problems and lack of good maps and gametypes it might appear to be good even, but you calling it "great" is exactly what I have an issue with. Do you think 10 years from now people will be begging for a Fathom remake because of their fond memories of playing 15+ minute stalemate CTF matches? Hell no.

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How is "it's fucking boring" to "it sucks huge dick" flip-flopping? Come on lol. And by alternatives I mean if we were to replace it, we'd have to use something like Oddball or Molten which is even worse. Fathom CTF is tolerable at best, but within the context of H5's never-ending laundry list of problems and lack of good maps and gametypes it might appear to be good even, but you calling it "great" is exactly what I have an issue with. Do you think 10 years from now people will be begging for a Fathom remake because of their fond memories of playing 15+ minute stalemate CTF matches? Hell no.

Because commenting on how it's boring is how you perceive it, whereas how it actually functions is a matter of objective merit. And I won't take an appealing to a remake and general popularity as a means of determining how good a map is, either. What makes Fathom so terribad? Objective actual issues past a stalemate tendency. Which isn't a killing flaw, necessarily, given this is the game about flying in a way that tends to break the gametypes and maps in the first place, lol. Fathom being able to regulate and slow that the fuck down is fine by me. Especially when you compare it to the original HCS implementation of Empire CTF, which just allowed rapid, uncontested flag pulls through middle due to its size, and the ability to just slingshot yourself around the map. An actual garbage gametype that warranted being removed.

 

But to reiterate. What's actually bad about Fathom? Corridor based gameplay? In the treehouses, sure. An area you traverse to get to top-mid. A power region. Map geo's simple, map layout is the easiest to understand out of most, if not all maps, having two levels, and easy and few ways to access said levels. Predictable spawns, which are great for players who understand it. And not great when nuthugger plat kids run silo when others are trying to hold elbow, lmao. It's biggest flaw hypothetically would be how simple it is when the game allows you to fly, but given stalemates are a thing, it's obviously not a big issue and if anything, works in the game's favor by allowing people to actually slow the game's pace down.

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Dude everything you just said is literally flipped lol. H5 descope battles are awkward because the RRR/AA while scoped in absolutely dumps on WRR aim. WR is so inconsistent in this game and it has a much better reticle than past halos. To make descope feel less clunky aiming while unscoped needs to be more similar to aiming while scoped in. Otherwise the guy that was already scoped in sitting far away will demolish you. The gap between the 2 should absolutely not be so big.

If you are in a fight with another player who is using the same weapon, your job is to descope him, and keep him descoped until he’s dead. He’s going to try to do the same thing to you. As such, The player who shoots the best while descoped will win.

 

If you feel disadvantaged because you got shot first... well, that’s the cost of getting shot first! You now need to overcome that by shooting well unscoped, which would then put you both on the same playing field when it comes to assists.

 

Buffing unscoped RRR/AA to match scoped will just make aiming feel less intuitive. Now your reticle is sticking to players at a distance- making it take longer to shift to closer threats if neccisary. Now the dev has to decrease assists on closer enemies (which we know feels like shit) or else aiming at close range would require even less player input than it does now. At this point, the CPU is being asked to handle even more of the aiming duties, while making it harder to guage player intent. All this while arbitrarily changing the formula the cpu uses based on distance-to-target which makes Z-strafe fights feel like insanity.

 

If WR is inconsistent- then the solution is to make WR more consistent. Also, ranged precision weapons need to be projectile so that travel time can make it harder to hit ranged targets, even when scoped.

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And on another note. I think double melees from CE are a good addition. Are they completely balanced? lol no. But they're fun and exciting and skillful with a bit of risk. It balances weapons like rockets/shotgun/sniper/pistol because you can't just take your time lining up your shot if you get in close range. One does not lightly travel down pink hallway on chillout with rockets. Getting a clutch double melee feels good and it's something that would make people get up off their feet like a noscope headshot would in halo 3. it's skillful in the aspect that you have to dodge your name, get close to the opponent without him knowing or beat the opponent who has the same option to double melee as you do, and has a decent technical skill. It's not easy to press y b l b while keeping your reticle on the person (no bumper jumper). the high fov makes spartans really fast up close so they go off your screen quickly. Just watch any vods.

 

here is one i saw on my feed the other day.

 

https://streamable.com/3fk1y guy who missed this? ranked #13 on the PR in 2014.

 

http://teambeyond.net/forum/topic/6963-halo-1-players-power-rankings-current/

Lmfao at that clip. That’s why you switch to AR, boys.

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Yes. Good, Kelly. Shift the blame away from me. They'll never see it coming when my contrarian anti-Halo sentmients take over the community. Soon everyone will hate essential, defining elements of Halo like pressing a button to instantly punch stuff and throwing nukes across the map to “do shitloads of damage to people you can't see.” All going as planned.

 

:simms:

This coming from the same guy who praises counter strike when that’s the exact thing that happens all the time. It’s only not frequent grenade spam because unlike halo you don’t spawn with a whole bunch and there’s no map pick ups.

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You know it’s great you’re all trying to figure ways to improve the melee system, but none of you are thinking how a casual would take this system? Button combos (unless they’re an implemented mechanic and have a tutorial on how to perform them) won’t be favored by the majority just the competitive one. I truly believe the solution is decreased melee lunge, but does only 50%. Oh and do not believe a casual would be ok with zero melee damage without waypoint and twitter being filled with rants of rage that melees don’t do shit. Now if we’re talking about the hcs/mlg playlist only then that’s great but I know that you aren’t. There’s all this talk of what CE got right yet I’m curious oh how many would view it as so? Obviously everyone here is in LOVE with ce so obviously most of you would deep it so. yet it makes me wonder why no one ever looks at halo 3 and sees what it did right since the only improvement h3 needed was removal of random spread from its precision wespone.

At the end of the day my question is what did h3 do right that we needed implemented into newer halo games or just h6.

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Button combos (unless they’re an implemented mechanic and have a tutorial on how to perform them) won’t be favored by the majority just the competitive one.

Just make them into an alternate technique that Spartans can perform because of they're supersoldiers and have years of combat experience. Tada you now have a semi-reasonable explanation for including double shot, bxr, etc...

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H3 got stuff right around the gameplay. All the social stuff, custom games, forge, theater, etc. That stuff is what should be brought into newer Halos from H3.

 

And is Fathom really fine, or is it like the Haven effect in H4 where it was more popular than it would have been in other Halo games just because it was the least bad in a game?

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Just make them into an alternate technique that Spartans can perform because of they're supersoldiers and have years of combat experience. Tada you now have a semi-reasonable explanation for including double shot, bxr, etc...

lol, that’s a good one. All those lore faggots need to stfu tbh. They’re responsible for the bullshit in halo since they need lore implemented into the dumbass multiplayer when in Lore you hold two snipers(kelly does this in one issue). And even then they’re all hypocrites since in halo lore zoom works through the Spartans helmets when in h5 we ADS.

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H3 got stuff right around the gameplay. All the social stuff, custom games, forge, theater, etc. That stuff is what should be brought into newer Halos from H3.

 

And is Fathom really fine, or is it like the Haven effect in H4 where it was more popular than it would have been in other Halo games just because it was the least bad in a game?

fathom definitely has a haven affect. But I like coliseum, that map has a very unique halo style.
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People liked Halo 3 because:

-It had tons of marketing hype.

-It had tons of new features for it's time.

-It was a relatively easy game.

 

The first two are no longer relevant (hype has passed obviously, modern games have the same features) and the last point is not worth recreating.  No one looks at Halo 3 and sees what it did right because nothing about the gameplay itself is better than it's predecessors aside from projectile weapons.  Which would be significant if spread didn't render it largely irrelevant.

 

Removal of spread from precision weapons is far from being the only thing Halo 3 needed.  Even putting my Ce bias aside:

-The aiming system is still awful.

-Movement is still slow and floaty, FoV is still very tight.  All things Halo 2 did much better.

-Killtimes are too slow.  Shifting from hitscan to projectile is always going to slow killtimes in itself so if anything the theoretical killtime should be faster than Halo 2's to balance it out.  Not even slower by default.

-Melee is still braindead press B to win due to ridiculous lunge.

-The weapon balance still has several problems.  Every dual-wieldable weapon except the SMG is varying degrees of trash regardless if they're used on their own or dual wielded.  Equipment that is largely annoying and rewarding of defensive play.  The Shotgun sucks past a few inches.  Brute Shot is less interesting and useful than H2 version.

-The map quality is generally pretty poor outside of remakes.

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People liked Halo 3 because:

-It had tons of marketing hype.

-It had tons of new features for it's time.

-It was a relatively easy game.

 

The first two are no longer relevant (hype has passed obviously, modern games have the same features) and the last point is not worth recreating.  No one looks at Halo 3 and sees what it did right because nothing about the gameplay itself is better than it's predecessors aside from projectile weapons.  Which would be significant if spread didn't render it largely irrelevant.

 

Removal of spread from precision weapons is far from being the only thing Halo 3 needed.  Even putting my Ce bias aside:

-The aiming system is still awful.

-Movement is still slow and floaty, FoV is still very tight.  All things Halo 2 did much better.

-Killtimes are too slow.  Shifting from hitscan to projectile is always going to slow killtimes in itself so if anything the theoretical killtime should be faster than Halo 2's to balance it out.  Not even slower by default.

-Melee is still braindead press B to win due to ridiculous lunge.

-The weapon balance still has several problems.  Every dual-wieldable weapon except the SMG is varying degrees of trash regardless if they're used on their own or dual wielded.  Equipment that is largely annoying and rewarding of defensive play.  The Shotgun sucks past a few inches.  Brute Shot is less interesting and useful than H2 version.

-The map quality is generally pretty poor outside of remakes.

*triggered*

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You know it’s great you’re all trying to figure ways to improve the melee system, but none of you are thinking how a casual would take this system? Button combos (unless they’re an implemented mechanic and have a tutorial on how to perform them) won’t be favored by the majority just the competitive one. I truly believe the solution is decreased melee lunge, but does only 50%. Oh and do not believe a casual would be ok with zero melee damage without waypoint and twitter being filled with rants of rage that melees don’t do shit. Now if we’re talking about the hcs/mlg playlist only then that’s great but I know that you aren’t. There’s all this talk of what CE got right yet I’m curious oh how many would view it as so? Obviously everyone here is in LOVE with ce so obviously most of you would deep it so. yet it makes me wonder why no one ever looks at halo 3 and sees what it did right since the only improvement h3 needed was removal of random spread from its precision wespone.

At the end of the day my question is what did h3 do right that we needed implemented into newer halo games or just h6.

Aside from the sniper, Halo 3 did nothing right in terms of gameplay really. This coming from the biggest H3 fanboy. H3 IMO did everything else right in terms of features a game should have like theater, fileshare, forge..etc as previously mentioned.

 

CE and H2 are the games people should be looking at when trying to take away something gameplay wise.

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This coming from the same guy who praises counter strike when that’s the exact thing that happens all the time. It’s only not frequent grenade spam because unlike halo you don’t spawn with a whole bunch and there’s no map pick ups.

I'm still waiting for one post from you that demonstrates that you have functional knowledge of any topic whatsoever, but I suspect that I'll be waiting quite some time.

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You know it’s great you’re all trying to figure ways to improve the melee system, but none of you are thinking how a casual would take this system? Button combos (unless they’re an implemented mechanic and have a tutorial on how to perform them) won’t be favored by the majority just the competitive one. I truly believe the solution is decreased melee lunge, but does only 50%. Oh and do not believe a casual would be ok with zero melee damage without waypoint and twitter being filled with rants of rage that melees don’t do shit. Now if we’re talking about the hcs/mlg playlist only then that’s great but I know that you aren’t. There’s all this talk of what CE got right yet I’m curious oh how many would view it as so? Obviously everyone here is in LOVE with ce so obviously most of you would deep it so. yet it makes me wonder why no one ever looks at halo 3 and sees what it did right since the only improvement h3 needed was removal of random spread from its precision wespone.

At the end of the day my question is what did h3 do right that we needed implemented into newer halo games or just h6.

the glorious part about casuals vs comp is that the casuals wont care as long as the mechanics are solid. Halo2 is probably the 2nd (maybe 1st) most beloved halo game by the masses and it has a million button combos. Same thing about super smash bros melee. This is where skilled matchmaking comes in. These casuals wont be matching mlg pros so they wont care. Getting 50-0'd vs mlg pros is going to be just as frustrating with or without button combos.
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Aside from the sniper, Halo 3 did nothing right in terms of gameplay really. This coming from the biggest H3 fanboy. H3 IMO did everything else right in terms of features a game should have like theater, fileshare, forge..etc as previously mentioned.

 

CE and H2 are the games people should be looking at when trying to take away something gameplay wise.

I'll maintain that h3 is the best casual halo experience. Not the best designed but certainly fun and allows for creative experiences .
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Aside from the sniper, Halo 3 did nothing right in terms of gameplay really.

 

H3 really nailed aim assist values for most weapons. Next to CE H3 is the only game without excessive aim assist and magnetism and IMO does it even better than CE. Agree that the sandbox, movement etc were utter trash though.

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Chiming in late here, but isn't practically every PvP game about predicting your opponent?

 

Prediction. Resource management. Space management. Execution.

 

Using those 4 things to make plays that have a high probability of being favourable is pretty much how almost every PvP game works (including board and card games). You could make a lucky guess about an opponent's spawn location in Starcraft or their response after a hard knockdown in a fighting game and do something cheesy that pays off in a big way occasionally, but that doesn't necessarily reduce the competitive merit of those games just because lucky guesses can be a thing; they're just part of playing with and against other humans. The effect is more significant in team games where the players don't consistently play with each other but isn't that just an inherent part of team games set up by a matchmaking system?

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H3 really nailed aim assist values for most weapons. Next to CE H3 is the only game without excessive aim assist and magnetism and IMO does it even better than CE. Agree that the sandbox, movement etc were uttertrash though.

Exactly this. Aim assist in H3 is near perfect. Probably the best game I've ever played in that regard. Low enough for a good aiming skill gap and strong enough that it's not impossible to aim.
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H3 got stuff right around the gameplay. All the social stuff, custom games, forge, theater, etc. That stuff is what should be brought into newer Halos from H3.

 

And is Fathom really fine, or is it like the Haven effect in H4 where it was more popular than it would have been in other Halo games just because it was the least bad in a game?

No Fathom is not fine lol. OE off of every spawn because the settings don't allow for players to be dead for long enough for a cap to happen without multiple rounds of perfect slaying or incredibly amazing/bad plays. End result is flag standoffs that last for minutes and usually result in a double return. Its like Onslaught except players fly off spawn, respawn faster, and the map is huge by comparison. It basically is just full of really drawn out situations that usually result in stalemate. That is NOT okay. Someone should make a list of "most replayed" in tournament gametypes and explain how Fathom being leagues above everything else ever is okay or decent.

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I feel like i'm at Thanksgiving dinner, and my parents, aunts and uncles are all drunk, swearing at each other with me sitting in the corner just thinking "well this is totally unsurprising".

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H3 really nailed aim assist values for most weapons. Next to CE H3 is the only game without excessive aim assist and magnetism and IMO does it even better than CE. Agree that the sandbox, movement etc were uttertrash though.

Yeah was gonna edit that in but figured it was too late.

 

I mean the spread and shitty aiming still harm that point, but still the values themselves were good.

I'm still waiting for one post from you that demonstrates that you have functional knowledge of any topic whatsoever, but I suspect that I'll be waiting quite some time.

To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Halo. The mechanical depth is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of competitive gameplay most of the intricacies will go over a typical player's head. There's also Halo's minimalist approach, which is deftly woven into it's gameplay- it's sandbox attributes draw heavily from AFPS roots, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of this franchise, to realise that it's not just entertaining- it says something deep about VIDEOGAMES. As a consequence people who dislike Halo truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the merit in Halo's existing "utility weapon" which itself is a spiritual successor to Counter-Strike's primary M4A1. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Max Hoberman's genius wit unfolds itself on their television screens. What fools.. how I pity them.

 

And yes, by the way, i DO have a CSGO tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 Ranks of my own (preferably lower) beforehand. Nothin personnel kid

 

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Definitely surprised reading these opinions and the logic behind them. Pretty eye-opening to be honest lol. We have a ton of games in our series that have continued to make changes with each iteration. Some improved in the next game and some things were made worse. If you think there's no possible way to at least "improve" on these areas rather than remove them all together than I agree with Nick and others, you are playing the wrong game.

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