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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Fathom ctf remained the soul thing I enjoyed about halo 5 back when I played it.

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You need to chill out. A lot. It's word on the internet about a game franchise. Calm down a tad. Even so, the competitive community hates Fathom CTF and are wanting it removed, the "competitive" community was a joke already, lmao. 

 

Do you even watch or play competitive Halo? as it is right now, Fathom CTF is terrible. It's the same shit over and over lol.

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The sniper is the only weapon that actually needs a scope to begin with.

Disagree, all precision weapons need a scope. We only need 2 precision weapons: the utility weapon and the sniper. But that still leaves us will 2 scopes guns not 1.

 

The whole point of the scope is to allow for fine adjustments at long range w/o making short/mid range adjustments unbearably slow.

 

This mechanic ultimately empowers the player who can fight in ranged duels w/o scoping, while at the same time empowering spawners to challenge long ranged precision weapons like the sniper.

 

Perhaps we wouldn’t need a scope utility if were playing on kb/m, but alas... this is a console game.

 

I'm confused. Is it because you like how descope feels, or didn't like no descope when you had to deal with it on sniper rifles in Halo 4, or because you genuinely feel it lessens an important aspect of gunplay outside of that.

 

I'm not advocating for removing descope I just want to know if it's something people actually like.

 

descope is a good way to balance precision weapons. we have too many precision weapons, but any that we do have need to have scope and descope.

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Do you even watch or play competitive Halo? as it is right now, Fathom CTF is terrible. It's the same shit over and over lol.

 

So, exactly like every other competitive gametype in Halo 5.

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However, my issue wasn't rendering your gun useless, my issue was how it makes you engage in combat without your gun, which is just personally dumb. More so that it's more effective. Again, melees rip your shields down faster than weapons do, so it's not like having no access to your gun's a punishment given you're just getting more power in a shorter timeframe. That's pretty dumb in almost every conceivable way.

It sounds like decent arena style strafing fixes some of your issues. If there's a decent opportunity for an opponent to juke your melee, melee has an opportunity cost associated with it. I'll try and look for some good examples from TF2, which I think has a really sound melee system.

 

 

And my issues with CE? Inconsistency.

 

I'd be interested in hearing how CE is inconsistent.

 

 

Remember, kids: you can't discuss significantly nerfing or removing mechanics that nerds on the internet have 100% arbitrarily decided are CORE PILLARS OF THE GAME'S IDENTITY. Only these newer things they don't like are allowed.

 

Oh please, stop pretending that removing melee as a concept is comparably significant to removing some arbitrary ability fad we know for a fact won't survive to the next game. Believe me, I've been in similar positions. TF2 has had random crits in matchmaking for longer than a decade. I've hated the concept since I first played the game. To say that random crits are a cancer upon a great game is an understatement. That being said, I recognize the status quo; Valve and a non-negligible part of the community have tended to be very change averse on the issue. Arguments against random crits have to be well constructed and convincing. I can't flippantly say "yeah no random crits aren't fair or balanced you plebs" and expect to convince anyone. Thankfully, random crits have been criticized by people who care even more than I do for longer than I've been playing, and most of the community that takes the game seriously doesn't like them. 

 

You don't have that advantage. Melee has a significant physical and psychological impact on people interact with the game, especially outside of competitive multiplayer. Saying that its 2ez and should be removed without much thought put into changing it or any sort of alternative isn't very convincing. Sprint, for example, is going to be difficult to surgically remove from the Halo franchise, but the argumentation that's been put out and effort put into showing what a stupid ability it is vast enough to turn some heads. I'd be interested in the argument that makes me abandon the concept of melee from the Halo franchise. Are you actually interested in convincing people here that melee should be 100% culled and that it is 100% not redeemable, or is this just some contrarian need to show that people might be attached to certain concepts because Appeal to Tradition, without much care or regard for fixing said concept and thinking about how it will effect the rest of the game?

 

 

 

I love how casually patronizing this summary is.

I learned it from you dad.

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So, exactly like every other competitive gametype in Halo 5.

He's right you know

 

As in Arg is right

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I feel like if your ideal Halo game removes reloading, melee, grenades, power ups and descoping, then you should probably just play a different FPS. Never mind what you think exemplifies competitive merit... At some point, you just have to realize that you have a bias against concepts that fans already have a strong affinity towards. Thes are concepts that have already been positively received commercially, critically, and competitively. the consequences of removing them ultimately won’t be worth whatever “objective” benefits you think it would bring to pvp combat.

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I just don't want nades to be nukes. And I don't want melees to leave you one shot. Reloading isn't even a thing to defend lol it's not really a good mechanic. It's actually one of the worst things about the H5 magnum. I understand descope has always been in halo and I guess it's not that bad but to say you NEED to scope in is kinda funny. Most games that have ADS use it as a means to make your gun more accurate, mainly spread wise. Without spread you don't NEED it you can just adjust AA and bullet mag to be more consistent at range. Isn't that what CE does too lol? The bigger the delta between unscoped ease of use and scoped ease of use the more janky it will feel.

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I just don't want nades to be nukes. And I don't want melees to leave you one shot. Reloading isn't even a thing to defend lol it's not really a good mechanic. It's actually one of the worst things about the H5 magnum. I understand descope has always been in halo and I guess it's not that bad but to say you NEED to scope in is kinda funny. Most games that have ADS use it as a means to make your gun more accurate, mainly spread wise. Without spread you don't NEED it you can just adjust AA and bullet mag to be more consistent at range. Isn't that what CE does too lol? The bigger the delta between unscoped ease of use and scoped ease of use the more janky it will feel.

Still sounds like you should be playing Quake or UT. Cause the vast majority of shooters require some form of reloading.

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Still sounds like you should be playing Quake or UT. Cause the vast majority of shooters require some form of reloading.

the only reason I can see as a justification for reloading is that its supposed to encourage good shooting because if you're bad, you shoot too much and have to reload, crippling yourself mid fight. Basically punishment for being a shit shot, or rather as a reward for good strafing, you deplete the other guys ammo.

 

It's not a terrible argument, but you could accomplish this in different ways that don't involve turning your gun off. Honestly, I can take or leave reloading. I'm not bothered by it's inclusion or exclution too much.

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the only reason I can see as a justification for reloading is that its supposed to encourage good shooting because if you're bad, you shoot too much and have to reload, crippling yourself mid fight. Basically punishment for being a shit shot, or rather as a reward for good strafing, you deplete the other guys ammo.

 

It's not a terrible argument, but you could accomplish this in different ways that don't involve turning your gun off. Honestly, I can take or leave reloading. I'm not bothered by it's inclusion or exclution too much.

In a game like Halo I think reloading is part of the skill gap for shooting. It's just dumb in H5 cause you can kill at most 2 people with a full magnum without nades or teamshot. In every other Halo game this wasn't the case and reloading was something you did every 2 seconds.

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Still sounds like you should be playing Quake or UT. Cause the vast majority of shooters require some form of reloading.

They don't require it lol they just have it. It's absolutely not necessary and really doesn't add anything to the game. Especially with your spawn weapon in a 4v4 game. It's a great way to weaken the individual by not allowing them to annihilate a team if they make the proper play. Being forced to reload makes 1v- situations near impossible simply because the gun cannot shoot enough bullets. It's dumb.

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They don't require it lol they just have it. It's absolutely not necessary and really doesn't add anything to the game. Especially with your spawn weapon in a 4v4 game. It's a great way to weaken the individual by not allowing them to annihilate a team if they make the proper play. Being forced to reload makes 1v- situations near impossible simply because the gun cannot shoot enough bullets. It's dumb.

you could kill an entire enemy team in a 4v4 with the pistol. 3 shots, 12 in the mag. 4 kills if you're good.

 

Not that I disagree, in recent games it's a real problem that mags don't hold enough. Is the solution to just discard reloading or is it to simply make the mag bigger.

 

Then again, if it's big enough to where you're never reloading in combat, removing it would take care of a redundant mechanic since reloading isn't coming into play anyway.

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They don't require it lol they just have it. It's absolutely not necessary and really doesn't add anything to the game. Especially with your spawn weapon in a 4v4 game. It's a great way to weaken the individual by not allowing them to annihilate a team if they make the proper play. Being forced to reload makes 1v- situations near impossible simply because the gun cannot shoot enough bullets. It's dumb.

Then you make the gun better? 1v2 in CE is possible if you have a better shot. And by 'require' I mean you HAVE to reload in most shooters, it's something they all have built in.

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Then you make the gun better? 1v2 in CE is possible if you have a better shot. And by 'require' I mean you HAVE to reload in most shooters, it's something they all have built in.

CE is also 2v2 where you aren't firing nearly as much. 4v4 CE requires so much relaxing especially with the dumb spawns to the point where it's still just something punishing you for no reason.

 

Okay what is it that you guys LIKE about reloading? What does it add to the game that taking it out would simply make the game worse? I promise you if CE launched with no reloading and H2 added it in you would all hate it. As a mechanic it's just a hindrance. It's used to force you to not engage multiple people and it's so counter-intuitive in games where you literally always shoot your gun. It's a handicap that if removed would allow better players to further dominate the game.

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CE is also 2v2 where you aren't firing nearly as much. 4v4 CE requires so much relaxing especially with the dumb spawns to the point where it's still just something punishing you for no reason.

 

Okay what is it that you guys LIKE about reloading? What does it add to the game that taking it out would simply make the game worse? I promise you if CE launched with no reloading and H2 added it in you would all hate it. As a mechanic it's just a hindrance. It's used to force you to not engage multiple people and it's so counter-intuitive in games where you literally always shoot your gun. It's a handicap that if removed would allow better players to further dominate the game.

In Halo I like reloading because I know if that guy misses a bunch of shots he's going to get punished with the need to reload. I can see where no reloading could separate the best, but it'd also empower spamming shots. Games that don't require reloading don't, from what I've played, give you a weapon that's supposed to a utility weapon. It'd make sniping for example extremely difficult against competent players.

 

In H5 if you could just keep shooting the sniper couldn't peak to shoot back. CE is a bit different because the pistol is harder to use but it still would cause the same sort of issues. It eliminates rechallenging for the majority of players, even the high level players. Shotzzy who has the best pistol in H5 arguably would have significantly less chance to jump out and challenge because the player prefiring never has to reload. Rechallenging when you think someone is reloading is part of the, dare I say, mental games in Halo. People can stop shooting to make others think they're reloading, I do it all the time in CE, so when their opponent challenges they have an advantage.

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I just don't want nades to be nukes. And I don't want melees to leave you one shot. Reloading isn't even a thing to defend lol it's not really a good mechanic. It's actually one of the worst things about the H5 magnum. I understand descope has always been in halo and I guess it's not that bad but to say you NEED to scope in is kinda funny. Most games that have ADS use it as a means to make your gun more accurate, mainly spread wise. Without spread you don't NEED it you can just adjust AA and bullet mag to be more consistent at range. Isn't that what CE does too lol? The bigger the delta between unscoped ease of use and scoped ease of use the more janky it will feel.

ADS is about getting an accuracy buff in other games... that's NEVER been the primary purpose of zoom in Halo.

 

its never been about an accuracy buff. zoom primarily allows you to make finer adjustments. the same input that turns your reticle 10 actual degrees when unscoped, moves it 5 degrees at 2x zoom. this allows you to track targets who are further away.

 

the benefit of scope it has NOTHING to do with spread (which shouldn't even be a thing) and everything you do with allowing you to be more precise at range. there is no delta between scoped and unscoped ease of use.

 

you cant replace the fine adjustment with AA and bullet mag buffs without simultaneously making close range combat easier or having weird fucking AA solutions like H5s DMR after the tuning.

 

as far a reload... i don't know what to say... it's resource management. its a part of the game. you not liking it doesn't make it bad. the h5 magnum clip being to small doesnt make reloading inherently bad. there's value in having think about how much damage they and their opponents have the capacity to deal.

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ADS is about getting an accuracy buff... that's NEVER been what the scope has been for in Halo.

 

its never been an accuracy buff, it just allows you to make finer adjustments. the same input that turns your reticle 10 actual degrees when unscoped, moves it half that at 2x. this allows you to track targets who are further away.

 

the benefit of score it has NOTHING to do with spread (which shouldn't even be a thing) and everything you do with allowing you to be more precise at range. there is no delta between scoped and unscoped ease of use.

 

you cant replace the fine adjustment with AA and bullet mag buffs without simultaneously making close range combat easier.

Yes you can lol they even tried it in H5 (although poorly). And no, scoping isn't ONLY about that the biggest reason to scoping in has pretty much always been the increased RRR. If scoping only allowed finer adjustments it'd be fine but it also gives a lot more RRR which is why long range descope battles can get clunky as hell especially in H5 if you get first shot.

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In Halo I like reloading because I know if that guy misses a bunch of shots he's going to get punished with the need to reload. I can see where no reloading could separate the best, but it'd also empower spamming shots. Games that don't require reloading don't, from what I've played, give you a weapon that's supposed to a utility weapon. It'd make sniping for example extremely difficult against competent players.

 

In H5 if you could just keep shooting the sniper couldn't peak to shoot back. CE is a bit different because the pistol is harder to use but it still would cause the same sort of issues. It eliminates rechallenging for the majority of players, even the high level players. Shotzzy who has the best pistol in H5 arguably would have significantly less chance to jump out and challenge because the player prefiring never has to reload. Rechallenging when you think someone is reloading is part of the, dare I say, mental games in Halo. People can stop shooting to make others think they're reloading, I do it all the time in CE, so when their opponent challenges they have an advantage.

Literally everything has "mind games" lol that's part of it being a game. But endless pre firing isn't even like some super OP thing lol. If we are talking "mind games" then someone pre firing a wall you backed down from tells you about 10 things. 1) he's still there. 2) he's still looking at that same angle. 3) you're in a game with multiple people. Shots are loud. Your team can hear him and know exactly where he is. Pre firing and baiting with a reload obviously are part of the skill now but that doesn't mean it's a skill that's worth having over what no reloading has. There's tons of things and mind games you can play when no one has to reload and people will adjust their playstyle accordingly.

 

I do have to say though it's weird seeing you defend those mind games but criticize H5 mechanics. As annoying as H5 is the "mind games" you are capable of doing in this game are 100x more complex than what reloading adds.

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I feel like if your ideal Halo game removes reloading, melee, grenades, power ups and descoping, then you should probably just play a different FPS. Never mind what you think exemplifies competitive merit... At some point, you just have to realize that you have a bias against concepts that fans already have a strong affinity towards. Thes are concepts that have already been positively received commercially, critically, and competitively. the consequences of removing them ultimately won’t be worth whatever “objective” benefits you think it would bring to pvp combat.

Orrrrrrrrr, I could voice what I'd like to see given I still enjoy playing Halo in its current state, even with some garbage added in. My ideal Halo is what I consider a perfect Halo, and what I consider perfect per game hasn't happened with any game I've enjoyed. Unrealistic expectations, sometimes, but it won't stop me from voicing them, be it extremely or subtly. It's not like any of this shit I vouch against makes me quit, because it doesn't, nor am I actively fighting for this sort of Halo. Because I know what to and what not to expect. 

 

Do you even watch or play competitive Halo? as it is right now, Fathom CTF is terrible. It's the same shit over and over lol.

I both watch and play, yes. It's not terrible, at all. It's one of the few bearable gametypes alongside Coli and Truth CTF. Everything else bar these three are garbage.

 

It sounds like decent arena style strafing fixes some of your issues. If there's a decent opportunity for an opponent to juke your melee, melee has an opportunity cost associated with it. I'll try and look for some good examples from TF2, which I think has a really sound melee system.

If you could literally and consistently dodge melee, I'd be good with it. Dodging garbage. Gucci.

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Literally everything has "mind games" lol that's part of it being a game. But endless pre firing isn't even like some super OP thing lol. If we are talking "mind games" then someone pre firing a wall you backed down from tells you about 10 things. 1) he's still there. 2) he's still looking at that same angle. 3) you're in a game with multiple people. Shots are loud. Your team can hear him and know exactly where he is. Pre firing and baiting with a reload obviously are part of the skill now but that doesn't mean it's a skill that's worth having over what no reloading has. There's tons of things and mind games you can play when no one has to reload and people will adjust their playstyle accordingly.

 

I do have to say though it's weird seeing you defend those mind games but criticize H5 mechanics. As annoying as H5 is the "mind games" you are capable of doing in this game are 100x more complex than what reloading adds.

I don't personally think it's a huge part of the game, these 'mind games', but I do think a Halo game without reloading would suffer in other ways. There's plenty of things Halo could change in every game to be better, there's just more in Halo 5 to fix.

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Yes you can lol they even tried it in H5 (although poorly). And no, scoping isn't ONLY about that the biggest reason to scoping in has pretty much always been the increased RRR. If scoping only allowed finer adjustments it'd be fine but it also gives a lot more RRR which is why long range descope battles can get clunky as hell especially in H5 if you get first shot.

the reason it's clunky in h5 is because it's a bad, counter intuitive idea to give more hipfire aim assists to a target that's far away. it doesn't make any sense, and will always have arbitrary poorly communicated dropaway points

 

the increased rrr when zoomed is a function of keeping the ease of use consistant when zoomed. this makes for a smooth aiming feel when transition between states.

 

"clunky descope battles" are avoided by shooting accurately enough w/o your scope to keep your opponent unscoped while also outshooting him. ultimately, the winner is the guy who's better with the white reticle.

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the reason it's clunky in h5 is because it's a bad, counter intuitive idea to give more hipfire aim assists to a target that's far away. it doesn't make any sense, and will always have arbitrary poorly communicated dropaway points

 

the increased rrr when zoomed is a function of keeping the ease of use consistant when zoomed. this makes for a smooth aiming feel when transition between states.

 

"clunky descope battles" are avoided by shooting accurately enough w/o your scope to keep your opponent unscoped while also outshooting him. ultimately, the winner is the guy who's better with the white reticle.

Dude everything you just said is literally flipped lol. H5 descope battles are awkward because the RRR/AA while scoped in absolutely dumps on WRR aim. WR is so inconsistent in this game and it has a much better reticle than past halos. To make descope feel less clunky aiming while unscoped needs to be more similar to aiming while scoped in. Otherwise the guy that was already scoped in sitting far away will demolish you. The gap between the 2 should absolutely not be so big.

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Don't have much too add but I'm loving the amount of discussion here after many weeks of this thread being a ghost town. Waking up to 7+ pages is awesome.

 

@@TheIcePrincess People hate Fathom CTF because it's so fucking boring to watch and play that it hurts.It's not "broken" or imbalanced, it's just so bland (like H5 in general) that most people don't want it in the rotation. Of course it's better than most alternatives and with Oddball sucking, 343 being unwilling to make another HCS map and still no Forge maps on the rotation it's probably here to stay - together with some other hilariously bad gametypes - but that doesn't change the fact that Fathom CTF sucks huuuuge dick. You can pretend like it's anything close to decent, it's your opinion afterall but saying it's "good" and that people are crazy for wanting to remove it is a stretch. Again, lack of better alternatives doesn't make a bad thing good, it just makes removing/replacing it and ending up with a better outcome very hard.

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