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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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One thing I have thought about in regards to CE nades: What about a pretty strict damage cut-off? Same blast radius, but if you are in the outer ~50% of it, you only take half the damage or something. 

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Alternative idea: Melee completely ignores overshield and kills people like normal.  Meaning the guy with overshield actually has to think about his positioning.

 

Doing extra damage would be pointless.  The BEST case scenario is you manage to burn a bit of shield before getting your ass stomped into the ground.

what you said is what I had in mind.

 

This is sort of bandaid stuff though. It's all good for casual modes but in comp it's like "why not just take us out?"

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Honestly, I'd like to see halo CE with one nade starts that recharge even after death kind of like doom and destiny. No nades on map. Lower the radius too.

 

This way when you use a nade, you better make it count cuz you only got one and you won't have another for let's say 2 and half minutes.

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Honestly, I'd like to see halo CE with one nade starts that recharge even after death kind of like doom and destiny. No nades on map. Lower the radius too.

 

This way when you use a nade, you better make it count cuz you only got one and you won't have another for let's say 2 and half minutes.

In CE as is, this would suck ass

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In CE as is, this would suck ass

I'm just trying to think of ways that nade spam could be cut down. Lowering the amount of nades players spawn with is honestly a must imo, as is lowering the blas radius.
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You are purposely being dismissive here. You keep chalking it up to random guess work but it is not. When you consistently are able to kill people by predicting their map movement and preemptively nading it is no longer pure guess work. It is “educated guesswork” but with the emphasis on educated. The difference between a top level CE players ability to kill players with nades based on their ability to predict movement and a decent players ability to do the same is huge. In CE if you are able to keep tab of spawns, lanes, and player movement you can apply pressure from almost anywhere on the map with a well placed nade. It’s not like when you hit left trigger your spartan throws out a heatsesking rocket that kills any enemy that you even look in the general direction of. You still have to aim grenades. Where they go is determined by where your cursor is placed. You have to have an understanding of the physics of the grenade and work it to your advantage to gain the upper hand with them. I can’t believe you would be so dismissive of prediction nading as being skillful but then advocate for wall penetration claiming that it at least requires aim when it is the definition of shooting at the broad side of a barn and praying that you happen to hit whatever’s on the other side.

I'm dismissive of it in the scenario where it's presented as someone randomly nading a dude in camo when you're on the backfoot and the nade basically acts as a crutch that randomly blows someone to hell. Who, mind you again, is in camo. An ability designed to keep you off the radar and sightlines. Making the fact that a random nade killed them/revealed them even stupider. It's entirely guesswork predicated on a hunch, unless something was left out like "we saw them grab it and threw said nade", or "we blocked a spawn as a duo and could force a spawn here in X/have LoS" which turns it from a prediction nade, to a spawn kill, which is a different matter entirely, and not what I'm arguing against.

 

You don't really need any understanding of the physics (which are basic at best, and honestly easier to get than other Halos) to understand that throwing a hand nuke in smaller maps will most likely strike someone, especially on Prisoner. Which is small in scale and full of corridors. If wall penetration is barn shooting, then random nading/"predict nading", especially on Prisoner, is like firing an RPG at the barn's wall. Mind you, this only applies to CE, which also never set nade standards. Physics changed, nades changed, weirdly for the better in a situation where they still suck. And while I hate modern nades as we know them, CE's nukes aren't much better, and can be some of the most obnoxious. You may as well be throwing a heatseeker, lol. For hyperbole's sake.

And to contextualize wall penetration, my main thing with it (as a spitball, not exactly a super suggestion I'm too into) is how you actually need to see someone, or engage someone for it to be viable, on any consistent level. It requires a tad more thinking since you're not just firing and forgetting a nade and potentially killing or not killing someone. You're judging how someone may have moved and predicting movement based on that. You actually have something to go off of, which may turn into a hunch, but is still better than rando nades.

 

In Halo 5, no one's chucking nades and consistently killing people out of sheer prediction. They're throwing nades, potentially getting hitmarkers, and either collapsing on the area where the information came from, or going the opposite way. Pretty obvious by how people will fire off two nades and then move a completely different way without committing in a fashion that could be perceived as spawn blocking (With said nades), but obviously isn't when enemies end up arriving from the area, and the nades just didn't strike 'em. I've only seen something like that be viably and consistently used on Empire in 1v1s/2v2s, where you can nade a specific part of red and blue base for a sick spawn kill. Or standing top mid and being able to nade either bubble on Truth, again, in 1v1/2v2s. And those were the highest levels of brain use I've ever seen with nades. It was consistent, demonstrable, and not a hunch guess when you can count down spawns, block spawns yourself, and time a nade perfectly to kill your opponent off spawn. But also stupid when it worked since it cooks someone off spawn, lol.

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Two and a half minutes is WAY too long to wait for a single grenade.  Maybe if it were more like 30 seconds...

 

I don't think reinventing the entire grenade system is necessary (plus aren't you forgetting the existence of Plasmas and other nades?). 

Just set spawn grenades to two, lower their radius, and call it good.

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Two and a half minutes is WAY too long to wait for a single grenade. Maybe if it were more like 30 seconds...

 

I don't think reinventing the entire grenade system is necessary (plus aren't you forgetting the existence of Plasmas and other nades?).

Just set spawn grenades to two, lower their radius, and call it good.

fair, maybe I'm over thinking it a tad or tads.

 

Edit: ok new idea guys, melee functions as a wall kick mechanic. You can hit the wall and push yourself backward a short distance. I can see the not having any shooting ability thing becoming a problem though.

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I'll be the first to admit melee has had some problems in competitive play in the past, and that's not even considering the advanced mobility shit we have now. That being said, nothing you described is some fundamental problem. Dumb melee fights are mostly caused by lunging. Trades are a networking compromise. Reloading and throwing grenades also render your gun "useless"; meleeing is decision that should have some opportunity cost, and its cost is making your gun unable to fire. Double pummeling and other stupid shit that determines the outcome of the fight before its over is linked to lunge and garbage utility weapons.

 

I think it would be more productive if you described what you thought was wrong with CE's melee system. 

Reloading is also a dumb mechanic, too. This may just be the Turok me speaking, but I hate reloading in a comp environment. Like, what purpose does it serve? Just added punishment for missing shots when shots missed are punished enough by the opponent gaining more of an upperhand on you? It's like, yeah, both render your gun useless, but I also dislike both mechanics just as much in their own ways, lmao. It's another topic entirely, but yeah, hate 'em.

 

However, my issue wasn't rendering your gun useless, my issue was how it makes you engage in combat without your gun, which is just personally dumb. More so that it's more effective. Again, melees rip your shields down faster than weapons do, so it's not like having no access to your gun's a punishment given you're just getting more power in a shorter timeframe. That's pretty dumb in almost every conceivable way. Sure, no one runs around meleeing, but in the same breath, there's no such thing as a CQC gunfight because they have braindead melee systems in place for that.

 

And my issues with CE? Inconsistency. 

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Destiny 2 is an excellent case study on what happens if melee and grenades are removed and or reduced. It's not pretty.

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Reloading is another mechanic that exists in games almost solely for "muh realistic immersion" reasons that has no real gameplay benefits (aside from niche cases like the Rockets  or Sniper where it does somewhat serve as a balance factor). 

 

They aren't going to remove reloading obviously but they could at least make it near instant for weapons that don't need it to be balanced.

 

While we're still sharing unpopular opinions I'm not a huge fan of descope either.  Flinch is far worse, but still.  I don't need to be constantly knocked out of scope for ranged weapons to be balanced.  You can argue it adds more potential for reversals and ehhhh...I guessssss that's true....still annoying though.

 

Edit: ok new idea guys, melee functions as a wall kick mechanic. You can hit the wall and push yourself backward a short distance. I can see the not having any shooting ability thing becoming a problem though.

 

That makes sense but is probably best left to weapon's fire and/or just a straight up wallkick mechanic.

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Reloading is another mechanic that exists in games almost solely for "muh realistic immersion" reasons that has no real gameplay benefits (aside from niche cases like the Rockets  or Sniper where it does somewhat serve as a balance factor). 

 

They aren't going to remove reloading obviously but they could at least make it near instant for weapons that don't need it to be balanced.

 

While we're still sharing unpopular opinions I'm not a huge fan of descope either.  Flinch is far worse, but still.  I don't need to be constantly knocked out of scope for ranged weapons to be balanced.  You can argue it adds more potential for reversals and ehhhh...I guessssss that's true....still annoying though.

I mean, if weapons were just hard, I wouldn't see the issue no descope, no flinch. Like, I don't see a reason for descoping, personally. Again, kinda like reloading, the punishment for being hit is you losing health. The fact you can lose a vital element in a gunfight is pretty dumb on its own, especially given how jarring a transition it can be from scoped to unscoped. Say you aim at someone, and they potshot you with an AR bullet, resulting in you losing range, even if you had the upper hand or element of surprise. They get a potential easy escape or even reverse kill you, and you kinda get miffed out of a kill, especially if they're able to scope in and get range on you where you just lost it. It's hilarious descoping someone in Halo 5 especially. People will not only lose range, but windmill.

 

It's worse with stuff like Carbines existing, because a semi-auto, rapid fire precision weapon can literally just lay the hate on you from range, and you can't scope in at all to even contest, even though it IS possible to outgun a Carbine with another precision weapon within range. It's not a matter of the gun being OP, it's just a matter of not being able to get range on the damn thing.

 

I always played Halo 4 with stability active. While the guns are easier than your standard Halo, it just feels crisp to be able to aim in, anytime, and not lose anything but health in a gunfight. Crisp.

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holy shit guys.

 

1) while grenade implementation hasn't been perfect (and is really bad in h5), you are general overselling how brainless they are in theory. yes they do a lot of damage when you connect, but the user needs to account for: long animation recovery time, long projectile travel time, fuse time, the opponents movement, and the use the maps geometry to create good placement.

 

ideally there would be no grenade hitmarkers, high damage for well placed grenades, but aggressive damage dropoff.

 

2) reloading isnt just about "muh realism". it's about resource management. having a limited mag and a unique reload time gives the player something to think about with regards to how they approach a given situation. while you might prefer to be able to focus purely on dealing damage - that doesn't mean reloading brings nothing to the table.

 

3) the penetration perk in COD isn't skillful. you shoot, you look for hitmarkers, you act accordingly. it's just as bad as h5 grenades, if not worse because bullets land instantly, and you can fire a lot in a short amount of time.

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I mean, if weapons were just hard, I wouldn't see the issue no descope, no flinch. Like, I don't see a reason for descoping, personally. Again, kinda like reloading, the punishment for being hit is you losing health. The fact you can lose a vital element in a gunfight is pretty dumb on its own, especially given how jarring a transition it can be from scoped to unscoped. Say you aim at someone, and they potshot you with an AR bullet, resulting in you losing range, even if you had the upper hand or element of surprise. They get a potential easy escape or even reverse kill you, and you kinda get miffed out of a kill, especially if they're able to scope in and get range on you where you just lost it. It's hilarious descoping someone in Halo 5 especially. People will not only lose range, but windmill.

It's worse with stuff like Carbines existing, because a semi-auto, rapid fire precision weapon can literally just lay the hate on you from range, and you can't scope in at all to even contest, even though it IS possible to outgun a Carbine with another precision weapon within range. It's not a matter of the gun being OP, it's just a matter of not being able to get range on the damn thing.

I always played Halo 4 with stability active. While the guns are easier than your standard Halo, it just feels crisp to be able to aim in, anytime, and not lose anything but health in a gunfight. Crisp.

no descope was extremely gay in halo 4. Not being able to contest a scoped weapon like the sniper was ass.
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Honestly, I'd like to see halo CE with one nade starts that recharge even after death kind of like doom and destiny. No nades on map. Lower the radius too.

 

This way when you use a nade, you better make it count cuz you only got one and you won't have another for let's say 2 and half minutes.

If any sort of an ability needs to be on an extended cooldown, it's too powerful as-is.

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While CE nades could use a damage radius nerf, the only time I feel like they're obnoxious is in 4v4s.

 

Plus it's easier to dodge nades in CE if they're not well thrown. To each their own on it though I can see why they should be changed.

 

I stopped hating CE grenades as soon as i realized they have to come to rest before exploding.  A random throw will likely bounce around for a while and you can clear out of the blast area.  Its harder to chuck a well thrown nade that comes to rest quickly right at someones feet.  Maybe the radius could be toned down a bit, but i really think nades in CE are only truly OP to people that don't know/care about how they work.

 

There's no real merit to guessing like that, no. If you don't have line of sight and haven't seen someone, and all you go off of is a guess, where's the merit? You guessed. It's a lucky hit. Why give credit to a guess.

It's an educated guess though... at which point does it become "merit based"?  What type of mental calculation of possible routes an enemy could take flips it enough from "random" to "predictive"?  Personally, one of the ways i can tell i am playing a more highly skilled team is by how fucking quickly i get naded off spawn.  Good players can predict pretty reliably based on where their teammates are, where they last saw the opponents, when they went down etc etc where the enemy is going to spawn and when.  

 

Granted, in Halo 5 this shit got turned on its head because of grenade hit markers.  That is so dumb.  They aren't semi-surgical damage dealers anymore, they are sonar.  Throw all your nades at random paths and see which one get a hitmarker then call it out.  THAT is fucking stupid.  Halo 5 grenading specifically is more of a stupid spamfest than all but maybe Halo 2. And Halo 2s biggest problem was that you could load up to 8 grenades at a time. Halo 5's grenade implementation is not good, primarily because of thrust and hitmarkers.

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Reloading is also a dumb mechanic, too. This may just be the Turok me speaking, but I hate reloading in a comp environment. Like, what purpose does it serve? Just added punishment for missing shots when shots missed are punished enough by the opponent gaining more of an upperhand on you? It's like, yeah, both render your gun useless, but I also dislike both mechanics just as much in their own ways, lmao. It's another topic entirely, but yeah, hate 'em.

However, my issue wasn't rendering your gun useless, my issue was how it makes you engage in combat without your gun, which is just personally dumb. More so that it's more effective. Again, melees rip your shields down faster than weapons do, so it's not like having no access to your gun's a punishment given you're just getting more power in a shorter timeframe. That's pretty dumb in almost every conceivable way. Sure, no one runs around meleeing, but in the same breath, there's no such thing as a CQC gunfight because they have braindead melee systems in place for that.

And my issues with CE? Inconsistency.

 

it doesn't bother me that there are more ways to damage a player without a gun. It bothers me when it's just too easy or powerful to do so. Like, let's take halo ces melee, reduce the power a fair amount, and reduce aim assisting. That way you encourage using a gun more often but introduce s risk/reward dynamic in using melee to quicken the kill time if you connect. Remove the differing damage values based on movement. All of that plays a miniscule role tbh.

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Any game with explosives is going to use them in a similar manner.

 

And I'm not trying to be an ass, or combative, but if you hate/dislike so much of things that make up Halo (ie Nades, Power Ups, Descope, Power weapons, melee) Why not play something more your liking? Quake & UT are good, sometimes better, alternatives but they still have rockets and stuff. People are just happier playing things they enjoy, and I just want y'all to have fun. Or something.

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Any game with explosives is going to use them in a similar manner.

 

And I'm not trying to be an ass, or combative, but if you hate/dislike so much of things that make up Halo (ie Nades, Power Ups, Descope, Power weapons, melee) Why not play something more your liking? Quake & UT are good, sometimes better, alternatives but they still have rockets and stuff. People are just happier playing things they enjoy, and I just want y'all to have fun. Or something.

tbf, I don't think they're arguing for that stuff to be removed from the game completely. Just from the most comp settings.

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Alright, I've read a few pages of responses. I'll quickly throw in my two cents and then I have a question for everyone who said they want most of this stuff removed.

 

I think melees in Halo 1, and maybe Halo 2, are harder than you guys give it credit for. I've definitely dodged out of the way in both games against people trying to melee me. In Halo 2 it's definitely harder due to lunge but it's doable.

 

As for grenades, I don't think they're that easy but I'll concede to it for this next point. I feel their use for denying parts of the map is too important in terms of controlling space to simply remove. I enjoy the way they can be used to create an opening with well placed grenades and block areas of traversal. Their threat also means that players are nervous to stick close together melting everything in their path because one or two well placed grenades could wipe an entire team.

 

Finally, I'm not sure if you think any current Halo game would play well with removed melees and grenades or if you think one would need to be built ground up. Trying to take over P2 with no grenades on midship though sounds almost impossible to me, and I feel a lot of maps would have some sort of impenetrable area without grenades. Maybe 1v1s could work with no grenades or melees, even then I would prefer having them though.

 

Alright two questions for the people who don't like melees and/or grenades (feel free to refute anything else I said too). If you don't like melee, what's your opinions on backsmacks? Also are these things you absolutely hate, or just find annoying and you're being hyperbolic? I'm just surprised you have stuck around Halo so long, when more than half the features of the game you despise.

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tbf, I don't think they're arguing for that stuff to be removed from the game completely. Just from the most comp settings.

And my counter to that is, all that stuff is either needed or not going anywhere. Objective gametypes can work without power weapon/power ups, but some maps would be worse for it. Slayer (regardless of how I think it shouldn't be in competitive) would slow to a snail's pace without a reason to move, and even then it slows way down on maps like Damnation.

 

I can understand wanting to get rid of stuff like sprint, thruster, spartan ability x, but not something like nades. Considering they're used as more than free damage.

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Destiny 2 is an excellent case study on what happens if melee and grenades are removed and or reduced. It's not pretty.

 

What? Destiny has all kinds of problems. None of them are weak melee/grenades.

 

If anything, the main reasons people think nuke grenades and melee are such a big deal for "outplays" in Halo (and they aren't exactly wrong) are:

 

1. Excessively long kill times.

2. Small shooting skill gap.

 

1vX scenarios without one of these abilities that instantly deal large amounts of damage go downhill very quickly, even if you have superior positioning and the element of surprise. Head to head gun fights against decent (and even not-so-decent) players in any Halo game are practically guaranteed to leave you one shot. CE fares the best here, as a result of its faster kill time, but even being generous with its aim assist skill gap you're still dealing with 2/3 body shots in a perfect kill. Nuke them with a grenade and now you have a much bigger advantage. Same goes for getting a melee in and being lucky enough not to trade.

 

These are much the same reasons button combos were in H2 were so influential. Kill times were long and shooting was easy as hell, but button glitches empowered individuals to make plays in a way that the intended core design didn't really allow. In context, it's arguably a positive addition, but why not just address the problems it is ultimately a band-aid for: long kill times and a small shooting skill gap? That's basically the same question I'm asking about the accepted tuning of grenades and melee in Halo.

 

Halo grenades. You're guaranteed 2 on spawn in 4v4. There is often a healthy supply of them on the map or from dead bodies. There is minimal risk in most cases to using them. One button press at any time. Short animation. Regularly mortar likely spawns and common routes and hope you get some poor bastard you couldn't see one shot ("prediction nades"). Get really lucky and you might end up with a SICK cluster-luck (sick as in it makes me nauseous). Chuck one at the beginning of a gun fight to skip 60-80% of the shooting (depending on the game), might even hit multiple players. Hell might as well chuck one as a last ditch effort in a gun fight and hope the enemy misses or you get a kill from the grave. The nonlethal utility in CE is the most interesting thing grenades have ever done and that's literally the only game that really did it (lol H5 weapon nading).

 

​Granted, they are probably at their worst in H5, but I think people are too fixated on the arbitrary "golden triangle" model as some timeless gospel of essential Halo pillars to examine problems some of these mechanics might have.

 

 

Finally, I'm not sure if you think any current Halo game would play well with removed melees and grenades or if you think one would need to be built ground up. Trying to take over P2 with no grenades on midship though sounds almost impossible to me, and I feel a lot of maps would have some sort of impenetrable area without grenades. Maybe 1v1s could work with no grenades or melees, even then I would prefer having them though.

 

Alright two questions for the people who don't like melees and/or grenades (feel free to refute anything else I said too). If you don't like melee, what's your opinions on backsmacks? Also are these things you absolutely hate, or just find annoying and you're being hyperbolic? I'm just surprised you have stuck around Halo so long, when more than half the features of the game you despise.

 

You may very well be right, so I guess it's worth noting that two of my pre-requisites for melee/grenade nerfs would be faster kill times and a meaningful shooting skill gap. I'm also fairly interested in the possibilities for expanding non-lethal grenade utility (e.g. CE item-nading, or CS:GO utility in general). My problem is with high damage, large blast radius frag spam and "walk forward and punch" melee in particular. That said, Halo 5 grenades are just absurd and melee lunge was never necessary or a good idea.

 

I don't have any real problem with backsmacks.

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Just a hilarious snippet of the conversation I'm have on fb with halo friends about this asinine topic.

 

"You get a guy weak on top mid, and he strongsides to P2, with no shields. You chase after him. You fully auto spray your AR through the wall you saw him hiding behind. Not many bullets land, but enough to keep him one shot. You go to throw your grenade, but in Halo 6 they've been removed. You have to do it the hard way. You run inside of p2 to finish your kill. The shieldless person has jumped behind you, for the ninja. But melees have been disabled in Halo 6 as well. Your teammate then clens up the kill from across the map with his endless clip AR with headshot bonus."

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I don't think anyone here likes accurate autos with headshot damage...

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