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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Well, they were...like, every single time...that's kind of what it is when every person on one team is better than every person on the other team, every single game, every single lobby. After about the 5th time of it, 30 seconds is about all i need to see.

 

I wish I would have recorded audio of your literally uninterrupted whining back when we played BTB. Not a single productive, helpful word came out of your mouth, despite talking from bell to bell every game. Your respawn screen was like a Pavlov's Bell that reminded you to bitch about whatever weapon killed you. And then you'd fill the time in between with crying about the movement and the maps and the art style and the vehicles and on and on and on. It was literally non-stop complaining. It would have been impressive if it wasn't so annoying. So you of all people do not get to point fingers at other people's temperaments.

 

The only sad thing here is how the only thing you take joy in is talking shit.

My friend, you’ve just described a stereotype halo player. I feel this is like 90% of the community now and why I’ve not really bothered with it for over 5 years.

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While CE nades could use a damage radius nerf, the only time I feel like they're obnoxious is in 4v4s.

 

Plus it's easier to dodge nades in CE if they're not well thrown. To each their own on it though I can see why they should be changed.

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I mean, no real reasons were given for why melees take no skill and why the grenades are overpowered, statements were just made about them. Don't mind me though, I'm just having fun playing Halo.

 

What exactly requires explaining? Melee requires you to hit your opponent anywhere on the body at close range. That is not particularly difficult (and momentum melee/variable hurtboxes don't really change that much). It's even more trivial with lunge. it's arguably situational, but really in the majority of cases in close range, melee is the best option, because CQC gun fights are incredibly awkward. Either to break the shields or the finish the fight. Why does this do more damage than the utility weapon? Double melee is a bit more interesting, but at that point it's a near immediate kill at close range, at full speed (for some reason) and I'm not sure I understand why that's much better than H5 spartan charge overall or what interesting decisions that adds. I do know it's annoying as hell to die that way.

 

Grenades? Again, when they have a giant blast radius and do tons of damage, they have all kinds of damage-dealing applications that are blatantly easier/better than a weapon that requires you actually aim at a fairly small target. Never mind the fact that you literally don't even need to see your opponent to nuke them. With basic spawn prediction, communication, and a bit of map awareness, it's not exactly hard to consistently mortar major areas of the map when it's even a bit likely your opponents will be there, which is why decent players in games like CE and H5 especially basically spam grenades all the time.

 

So, what exactly makes either of these particularly skillful and justifies the ability of either to make a player (or multiplayer players) immediately one shot, something that is quantifiably much harder to do with a precision weapon?

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A melee's just a single, simple button press for someone in front of you, that deals more damage in a short time than your starting weapons do. And not a single, simple action like firing a bullet. In the case of a weapon, you at least need to aim, strafe, etc to hit. When you melee, you immediately rip their shields down. Without firing your gun at all, or requiring any skill to get that one shot/kill. It's the epitome of a mindless action bar throwing a nade.

 

Grenades are mindless rocks you throw around. Hitmarkers certainly are their own issues with nades, but throwing a random nade and making someone one shot is hilariously dumb. Nade spam in general is stupid. Again, it's a weapon that deals more damage than your starting weapons in a shorter span in most cases, and you can have two to four of them, depending on your game, meaning if and when someone does nade spam you, they can just kill you without actually engaging you. You certainly don't need to aim them in most cases, either. Nades are generally nukes. And even the games where they're not are games where they're still super effective.

 

The worst comes when you're prediction naded by a dude you know didn't see you and just haphazardly naded the spot you were moving to. It makes you one shot, and now you can't fight, while someone knows you're there, down shots and is able to just clean you up. But they didn't get you down by actually engaging you, they just threw a random nade and got you. What an engaging fight. Losing to someone who's skill could range from bottom of the barrel to pro, because nades just insta down your shields and are stupid easy to use.

 

The issue is damage and easiness, alongside how they just forgo actually fighting someone with your gun, which more so boils into melee, but being double naded is just as infuriating.

 

 

 

Do you also take issue with the shotgun and sword? They're used very similarly and do more damage. Melee is only easy because:

You have to be extremely close to use it, which is a skill in itself

It's meant to alleviate awkward super-close range gunfights in a game with high hit points played on a controller. Nose to nose gunfights would be annoying as shit.

 

We agree about a lot of things in H3-onwards melees. They do too much damage, especially for their lack of depth. They are too easy. But both of those things can and have been better in the past. Standard melees should be 3HK imo, and lunge shouldn't exist outside of the sword/hammer. We can add depth with momentum melees which reward aggression. Jumping melees (apex and descent, not ascent) should do a lot of damage because they're difficult and require prediction. Ground pound can be replaced with falling melees because they're actually difficult to pull off and satisfying to connect with.

 

Grenades are absolutely necessary in a game with high hitpoints and recharging shields. If we didn't have grenades, hiding and waiting for shields would be a HUGE problem. Grenades are designed to end a fight that someone is trying to stall out for shields. They're designed to flush out campers. Prediction nades are a skill that costs a valuable resource. Getting prenaded means you're predictable. He's not closing his eyes and sending prayer bombs across the map at you. He made an educated guess on where you'd be and spent one of his two grenades on that guess. If he hit you and took your whole shield in the process, it was a pretty damn good guess.  Hitmarkers obviously are cancer and reward prediction nades with way too much information. 

 

You guys talk about nading like you're not vulnerable while you do it. If they see you throw it and they have a brain, they should be able to dodge it most of the time, and then they're up shots on you because they were shooting and you weren't. Nading your opponent prior to the fight is a skill that requires a lot of map knowledge and awareness. I know you know this. I don't know where the bitterness towards this is coming from.  I feel like your problem is more with radius (read: Thrust) and hitmarkers than it is with grenades as a concept. You didn't spawn with grenades on Backwash, and Backwash sucked asshole. Halo without grenades would be a horrible game. I'm honestly surprised this even needs to be explained.

 

Tune the radius for No Thrust and take away hitmarkers and they're fine. I think Halo 3 had them perfect. You could only carry 2 and the radius wasn't that big, and there were no hitmarkers telling you to throw a second grenade. What's your opinion on H3 grenades?

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I have literally, in my entire life, never heard such idiotic arguments as the ones I'm hearing for the removal of nades and melees in HALO in this thread. Jesus fucking christ this is bad. Boyo had way better ideas.

 

Some of the most amazing and out-skilled plays in the history of Halo were made possible by grenades and melees. I'm at a loss for words here.

 

Using the CE pistol is so fucking easy, it's literally just one button press! HUR DURRR

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The worst comes when you're PREDICTION NADED by a dude you know didn't see you and just HAPHAZRDLY NADED the spot you were moving to. It makes you one shot, and now you can't fight, while someone knows you're there, down shots and is able to just clean you up. But they didn't get you down by actually engaging you, they just threw a RANDOM NADE and got you.

 

Something doesn’t add up here. There’s a huge difference between four guys spamming pink tower in truth because one of them threw one and got a hitmarker and throwing a perfectly predicted nade to kill the camo/rocket guy on Prisoner to swing the momentum in a losing game of slayer in your favor. The former being dumb as hell and the latter being satisfying as fuck. Aiming is not the only skill that matters in an FPS. Predicting player movement is a huge skill. I have had the displeasure of running into some players in CE who are wickedly scary with their nade prediction, timing, and placement but I never feel cheated. I’m always impressed. Prediction nading is a skill and the gap is large.

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Cod took out knifing, which is QUINTESSENTIAL cod and not okay.

 

I've only watched the trailer so please excuse my ignorance, but aren't they going for a more Overwatch style with BO4? Didn't they raise the hitpoints pretty significantly to make the abilities more meaningful? If that's the case then I can understand them removing melee in CoD. It's always been an instant kill in a game full of nearly instant kill weapons. But if you could instantly kill with a melee in a game with higher hitpoints, it would break what the devs are going for as people just run around and go for melees. This is what happened in Splinter Cell Blacklist's SvM mode. Spies could OHK with a frontal melee and thats all they ever went for. It completely ruined the mode.  And if Treyarch left in the melee but just nerfed the damage, I think people would freak out because they expect CoD melees to instantly kill. Even if people could come to grips with it, it's still an awkward health pool to have a 2 hit kill melee, as you'll usually be killed before getting the second one off. It probably was for the best that they got rid of it in BO4.

 

But honestly it was a shitty comparison to begin with. Everything kills quick in CoD so melee was never a huge aspect of the game like it is in Halo.

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Do you also take issue with the shotgun and sword? They're used very similarly and do more damage. Melee is only easy because:

You have to be extremely close to use it, which is a skill in itself

It's meant to alleviate awkward super-close range gunfights in a game with high hit points played on a controller. Nose to nose gunfights would be annoying as shit.

I do, yes, because they're pretty dumb weapons in general, which is why I speak on power weapons being gone too, lol. That's its own topic.

 

Being close to someone isn't necessarily a skill either. You can happen upon someone in CQC and be nose to nose. Panic melee, oops, shield's goooone, double melee, dedtrade. 

 

Grenades are absolutely necessary in a game with high hitpoints and recharging shields. If we didn't have grenades, hiding and waiting for shields would be a HUGE problem. Grenades are designed to end a fight that someone is trying to stall out for shields. They're designed to flush out campers. Prediction nades are a skill that costs a valuable resource. Getting prenaded means you're predictable. He's not closing his eyes and sending prayer bombs across the map at you. He made an educated guess on where you'd be and spent one of his two grenades on that guess. If he hit you and took your whole shield in the process, it was a pretty damn good guess.  Hitmarkers obviously are cancer and reward prediction nades with way too much information.

 

You guys talk about nading like you're not vulnerable while you do it. If they see you throw it and they have a brain, they should be able to dodge it most of the time, and then they're up shots on you because they were shooting and you weren't. Nading your opponent prior to the fight is a skill that requires a lot of map knowledge and awareness. I know you know this. I don't know where the bitterness towards this is coming from.  I feel like your problem is more with radius (read: Thrust) and hitmarkers than it is with grenades as a concept. You didn't spawn with grenades on Backwash, and Backwash sucked asshole. Halo without grenades would be a horrible game. I'm honestly surprised this even needs to be explained.

Yeah, the issue here. If they're primarily made for campers, why not just equip people with a good weapon that rewards aggression and force the person to engage them once more. Hell, why not introduce wall penetration from CoD into Halo, so even if they duck behind a corner, you can still hit them by predicting where they go. At least then you need to not only aim AND actually predict, but also just open yourself up to retaliation from not only the person running, but others nearby. Have a damage drop off for every half meter the enemy is from said wall, so it isn't just over reliance on wallshooting, either. ANYTHING but mindless nades.

 

And "educated guess" is the keyword. It's a guess, it's not knowing for sure, and people being rewarded for guesswork is dumb, given it's not on the same line of predicting player movement based on your team's location and where the others could be. It's just you throwing a nade and being rewarded for it. There have been many times where I know I can't be seen, and am fine in relation to my teammates and people will just chuck a nade and hit me, randomly. I do it to other people way too much, too, especially on maps like Plaza and Rig. And I scoff to myself everytime it happens.

Tune the radius for No Thrust and take away hitmarkers and they're fine. I think Halo 3 had them perfect. You could only carry 2 and the radius wasn't that big, and there were no hitmarkers telling you to throw a second grenade. What's your opinion on H3 grenades?

I still hate them for how mindless they are. They don't need to exist, and wouldn't even more so if the player was empowered to be aggressive, over defensive, as many Halos cater to. Halo 3 pisses me off for the latter a lot, but nades fall into that category easily.

 

I have literally, in my entire life, never heard such idiotic arguments as the ones I'm hearing for the removal of nades and melees in HALO in this thread. Jesus fucking christ this is bad. Boyo had way better ideas.

 

Some of the most amazing and out-skilled plays in the history of Halo were made possible by grenades and melees. I'm at a loss for words here.

 

Using the CE pistol is so fucking easy, it's literally just one button press! HUR DURRR

Yes, passive aggressive mockery certainly gets the point across over actually debating. Nice contribution. All because I don't like nades and melee, mind you. Cool your jets, lmao. Besides, it's like you didn't even read what I said. Lemme quote.

 

A melee's just a single, simple button press for someone in front of you, that deals more damage in a short time than your starting weapons do. And not a single, simple action like firing a bullet. In the case of a weapon, you at least need to aim, strafe, etc to hit.

 

Something doesn’t add up here. There’s a huge difference between four guys spamming pink tower in truth because one of them threw one and got a hitmarker and throwing a perfectly predicted nade to kill the camo/rocket guy on Prisoner to swing the momentum in a losing game of slayer in your favor. The former being dumb as hell and the latter being satisfying as fuck. Aiming is not the only skill that matters in an FPS. Predicting player movement is a huge skill. I have had the displeasure of running into some players in CE who are wickedly scary with their nade prediction, timing, and placement but I never feel cheated. I’m always impressed. Prediction nading is a skill and the gap is large.

Is there really a difference? In the case of the former, you at least know, in the case of the latter, you threw a nade towards a player you didn't see, and didn't know if they were there, and managed to presumably kill them. Predicting player movement is one thing if you actively are pushing forward and engaging enemies, and are able to keep tabs on spawns, lanes, etc and keeping pressure on enemies. It's not skillful by just chucking a nade where someone may be and hitting someone. Anyone can do that. 

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You're given only two of an extremely valuable tool, and choose to spend one of them on a prediction, and you're right. You give that no credit? You make it sound like we have unlimited grenades, and that people are just walking around chucking them at everything. They get two. They used half of them based on intuition and experience and guessed correctly. Theres merit in that.

 

You'd rather render map geometry meaningless by shooting through walls then give credit to accurate grenades. It's like you're going out of your way to deny merit where it's obvious. You've never aimed a grenade at something in particular to get a specific bounce and hit a certain spot, and missed? Lord knows I have. It's a different type of skill, and I'm glad Halo forced me to learn some creative bounces in addition to aiming a gun. The game would be so boring if every engagement required line of sight.

 

As for happenstance "oops" melee fights, again, this can be alleviated with better melee systems like the ones we've been discussing the last few days. I'd rather have that than fumble over an awkward nose to nose pistol fight that would drag on for 5 seconds and have red reticle friction go apeshit. If CE didn't have players littering grenades in tight quarters melee fights and let players duck under melee's, that'd be pretty similar to what I'd like to see.

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You're given only two of an extremely valuable tool, and choose to spend one of them on a prediction, and you're right. You give that no credit? You make it sound like we have unlimited grenades, and that people are just walking around chucking them at everything. They get two. They used half of them based on intuition and experience and guessed correctly. Theres merit in that.

 

You'd rather render map geometry meaningless by shooting through walls then give credit to accurate grenades. It's like you're going out of your way to deny merit where it's obvious. You've never aimed a grenade at something in particular to get a specific bounce and hit a certain spot, and missed? Lord knows I have. It's a different type of skill, and I'm glad Halo forced me to learn some creative bounces in addition to aiming a gun. The game would be so boring if every engagement required line of sight.

 

As for happenstance "oops" melee fights, again, this can be alleviated with better melee systems like the ones we've been discussing the last few days. I'd rather have that than fumble over an awkward nose to nose pistol fight that would drag on for 5 seconds and have red reticle friction go apeshit. If CE didn't have players littering grenades in tight quarters melee fights and let players duck under melee's, that'd be pretty similar to what I'd like to see.

There's no real merit to guessing like that, no. If you don't have line of sight and haven't seen someone, and all you go off of is a guess, where's the merit? You guessed. It's a lucky hit. Why give credit to a guess.

 

Grenades already render most geo meaningless when they can be ricocheted off walls and the radius of the explosion kills players, easily. Sometimes even through it. Not to mention radar can allow you to see enemy positions through walls. I don't see how bullet penetration is somehow the killer there. And unlike nades, games with bullet penetration don't have players relying on it barring those situational parts of the game where someone darts behind a wall. Why waste ammo and give your position on someone you can't see/don't know are there. Nades allow you to rely on them for free damage and information, especially since they respawn.

 

Again, in the event it's used, with penetration you at least need to aim and rely on your skill to kill someone behind a wall in CoD, for example. Weirdly enough, it's one of the few portions of the game involving skill, lmao. But then nades don't require you to engage or anything, and there's little worthy or notable mechanical skill behind a nade toss. Just bounce a nade and hope for the best. Again, rather than designing a game that allows players to just play aggressive and engage them head on.

 

I also don't get this assumption that two players meeting nose to nose means the entire conflict goes that way, either. Not like people jump and back off, because mobility is a thing, negating fucky RRR.

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Thank god Bungie or 343 were never this dumb.

Seriously, are you six? Insulting other people because they disagree with what you think works in a video game? You're the same person who strawmanned one of my prior arguments and then proceeded to not respond to it when I had to correct you, and then just responded to a newer post with insults. Regardless of how valid or invalid my ideas or claims may be, you're flawed and out of line, here.

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@@TheIcePrincess, this is just a fundamental disagreement at this point. I am surprised how someone that enjoys Halo as much as you do/did arrived at this mindset, seeing as your issues are such a core part of the game. It sounds like you would like Quake and Unreal Tournament a lot. Have you played them?

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@@TheIcePrincess, this is just a fundamental disagreement at this point. I am surprised how someone that enjoys Halo as much as you do/did arrived at this mindset, seeing as your issues are such a core part of the game. It sounds like you would like Quake and Unreal Tournament a lot. Have you played them?

I don't mind disagreements, I just hate being insulted, or passive aggressively mocked over my dislike of something in a game. That's where the line's crossed. Civility. We can have a disagreement without devolving into childish retorts that offer nothing.

 

And no, I haven't. I probably will in the future, given my PC's capable, now.

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I don't mind disagreements, I just hate being insulted, or passive aggressively mocked over my dislike of something in a game. That's where the line's crossed. Civility. We can have a disagreement without devolving into childish retorts that offer nothing.

 

And no, I haven't. I probably will in the future, given my PC's capable, now.

No problem with disagreements. We've always been cool and I intend to keep it that way.

You should. Its a lot closer to what you're describing, and they are both fun as fuck.

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you guys do know that you can have melee in the game but just not have it in pro settings right? i dont see an actual issue in removing something that doesnt actually add anything to the skillfulness of the game from a gametype thats designed to be a skillful as possible.

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The Golden triangle is an inherently limiting and insufficiant way to describe the way halo plays.

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The Golden triangle is an inherently limiting and insufficiant way to describe the way halo plays.

 

the depth of my knowledge when it comes to the intricacies of Halo's gameplay is that sprint bad, no sprint good. 

 

and CE magnum is the best.

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I disagree. When I think of gameplay mechanics to make Halo, Halo, the last thing I think of is melee, bar how annoyingly dumb melee fights are, how stupid melee trades are, and why a single button press basically renders your gun useless and/or can fuck you out of a gunfight even if you ARE better than the other person who's meatsmacking you, and they happen to only do it out of the fact you're sitting right next to them. And I don't even think the general community thinks this, mind you.

 

Halo's effect on console game design is extremely well known. Regenerating shields, two weapon limit, melee and grenades linked to buttons, not weapon slots, etc. That IS Halo's legacy, that's undeniable. Whether that's good or bad is subjective.

 

I'll be the first to admit melee has had some problems in competitive play in the past, and that's not even considering the advanced mobility shit we have now. That being said, nothing you described is some fundamental problem. Dumb melee fights are mostly caused by lunging. Trades are a networking compromise. Reloading and throwing grenades also render your gun "useless"; meleeing is decision that should have some opportunity cost, and its cost is making your gun unable to fire. Double pummeling and other stupid shit that determines the outcome of the fight before its over is linked to lunge and garbage utility weapons.

 

I think it would be more productive if you described what you thought was wrong with CE's melee system. 

 

I will not understand keeping a dumb function in Halo for the sake of "identity", when it's not good. Or trying to make it better over just dropping it when it's a lost cause.

Having melee is so fundamentally ingrained into Halo its bizarre to imagine Halo without it. The Covenant species core design is balanced around having melee. Speedrunners and trickers abuse melee to setup skips and tricks. Infection gametypes use it to setup barricades to fight the infected, among other things. Its how all players manipulate the environment around them. It touches every aspect of the game in some way.

 

You might think its a dumb, irredeemable function, but that opinion isn't shared by many. imo its far more productive for you to suggest fixes for the melee system that improve it rather than just proclaim that it should be removed without some kind of extraordinary or compelling evidence that melee truly is irredeemably broken. I'm not saying you can't hold a controversial opinion, but ask yourself how likely it is that 343 or the community at large (or even this community) will ever even come close to considering simply removing melee from the game.

 

To go on, a utility weapon is key to Halo's identity in part. We've had a string of shitty utilities, leading up to the Magnum which is the first 100% accurate, single shot weapon we've got on launch. Going to that from the BR, which is inconsistent and a skill-gap killer is an example of a good change in something that is core to Halo, even if it wasn't executed 100% properly. Any change you make to melee will most likely either make it a redundant "why is this even here" function, or just keep it as stupid and mindless as it is, now. And I would gladly strip this element of Halo's "identity" when it's nothing but bullshit.

Why do you believe this beyond all doubt? "Easier to use than the UW, slower to kill than the UW" is one balancing mechanic that keeps the AR relevant and interesting in CE's sandbox. Surely melee can be kept in check by that same paradigm?

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Remember sword clashes in reach? Where you could melee and clash with a sword? Imagine that but with vehicles, where if you meleed at the right time on a oncoming vehicle, you could stop it.

 

Boom, I'm solving both the melee problem AND the vehicle problem. Fuckin get on my level cock sleeves lmao

 

Edit: what about melee doing extra damage to overshields? Still brainless but counters another brainless mechanic.

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Is there really a difference? In the case of the former, you at least know, in the case of the latter, you threw a nade towards a player you didn't see, and didn't know if they were there, and managed to presumably kill them. Predicting player movement is one thing if you actively are pushing forward and engaging enemies, and are able to keep tabs on spawns, lanes, etc and keeping pressure on enemies. It's not skillful by just chucking a nade where someone may be and hitting someone. Anyone can do that.

You are purposely being dismissive here. You keep chalking it up to random guess work but it is not. When you consistently are able to kill people by predicting their map movement and preemptively nading it is no longer pure guess work. It is “educated guesswork” but with the emphasis on educated. The difference between a top level CE players ability to kill players with nades based on their ability to predict movement and a decent players ability to do the same is huge. In CE if you are able to keep tab of spawns, lanes, and player movement you can apply pressure from almost anywhere on the map with a well placed nade. It’s not like when you hit left trigger your spartan throws out a heatsesking rocket that kills any enemy that you even look in the general direction of. You still have to aim grenades. Where they go is determined by where your cursor is placed. You have to have an understanding of the physics of the grenade and work it to your advantage to gain the upper hand with them. I can’t believe you would be so dismissive of prediction nading as being skillful but then advocate for wall penetration claiming that it at least requires aim when it is the definition of shooting at the broad side of a barn and praying that you happen to hit whatever’s on the other side.

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Edit: what about melee doing extra damage to overshields? Still brainless but counters another brainless mechanic.

 

Alternative idea: Melee completely ignores overshield and kills people like normal.  Meaning the guy with overshield actually has to think about his positioning.

 

Doing extra damage would be pointless.  The BEST case scenario is you manage to burn a bit of shield before getting your ass stomped into the ground.

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