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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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And how do you intend to fix or diversify a mechanic that acts as nothing more but a shield dropper in CQC?

 

I mean, finding the best solution could take some effort, but its not as monumental a task as you seem to think it is.

 

 

alternative to firing your gun, the primary goal of the game

Melee is firing a short-lived projectile.

 

over trying to hamfist said dumb mechanic in.

 

TIL, melee, in the Halo franchise, is a "hamfisted" mechanic. I mean, you could definitely argue lunge is a bit ham-fisted, but the simple ability to melee is integral to Halo's identity.

 

Sorry, but I like actually shooting in shooting games. I'm weird like that. Same reason I don't like giant blast radius nuke grenades (another staple of the CE experience).

 

It kind of sounds like Halo isn't the game for you then.

 

Of course taking pure competitive merit to it's logical extreme I could just as easily make (largely subjective) arguments against recharging shields and health, only carrying two weapons at a time, reloading, descoping, all sorts of other Halo gameplay staples.  We're not here to make a pure competitive shooter, we're here to make Halo as competitive as it can be while still being identifiable as Halo.

 

Nah, you were right. Remove all that, and then remove melee, remove vehicles, remove controllers, and remove any map that doesn't support high level gameplay. Let's race Halo to the AFPS graveyard as fast as possible.

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We should be iterating on that by letting crouch/jump dodge melees, narrowing the hit box from left to right so strafing matters, and creating niche uses for certain weapons in the sandbox that deepen the melee game. For example, weapons with faster draw times could create a faster melee combo by switching to them, like a BYB.

Alright everybody, time for round 2 of "Silos' cool or dumb idea".

 

I don't mind having a secondary in Halo as long as it kind of sucks, which sounds counter-intuitive but if it was something like the AR in H1 I really wouldn't care. It can clean up a kill if you run out of ammo with your pistol, and it has a faster melee, it would allow a YY in Halos past Halo 1. I also wouldn't mind it for something like a BYB.

 

I like BLB because you have a surprisingly good chance of killing yourself, so it has a risk reward. If we did a BYB you would need a second weapon to execute, but what if we made the player drop their first weapon to execute a BYB, would that be cool or dumb? I'm thinking it would make the player more vulnerable as they have to chase down their BR or pistol, so there's a bit of a risk if your melees don't kill or if somebody else is around they have a good chance of cleaning you up. If a player is prepared though, they could switch to their secondary first, and they'll just drop that and keep their primary weapon.

 

I'm almost imagining it like dual wielding, when you start shooting at somebody but go to melee for the last part of the kill and it drops your dual wielded weapon. But instead you'll drop the weapon you had out when starting your melee. In terms of "lore", you hit somebody but are in a rush to do more damage, so you drop your weapon and quickly pull out your other weapon instead of putting away the first, I don't know.

 

So, cool or dumb? Would you prefer just keeping all of your weapons? Would you want any sort of risk added?

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Alright everybody, time for round 2 of "Silos' cool or dumb idea".

 

I don't mind having a secondary in Halo as long as it kind of sucks, which sounds counter-intuitive but if it was something like the AR in H1 I really wouldn't care. It can clean up a kill if you run out of ammo with your pistol, and it has a faster melee, it would allow a YY in Halos past Halo 1. I also wouldn't mind it for something like a BYB.

 

I like BLB because you have a surprisingly good chance of killing yourself, so it has a risk reward. If we did a BYB you would need a second weapon to execute, but what if we made the player drop their first weapon to execute a BYB, would that be cool or dumb? I'm thinking it would make the player more vulnerable as they have to chase down their BR or pistol, so there's a bit of a risk if your melees don't kill or if somebody else is around they have a good chance of cleaning you up. If a player is prepared though, they could switch to their secondary first, and they'll just drop that and keep their primary weapon.

 

I'm almost imagining it like dual wielding, when you start shooting at somebody but go to melee for the last part of the kill and it drops your dual wielded weapon. But instead you'll drop the weapon you had out when starting your melee. In terms of "lore", you hit somebody but are in a rush to do more damage, so you drop your weapon and quickly pull out your other weapon instead of putting away the first, I don't know.

 

So, cool or dumb? Would you prefer just keeping all of your weapons? Would you want any sort of risk added?

 

Personally, I don't care for it. I think it would piss players off. I understand what you're driving at, and it's cool to think about, but the nuisance factor is high. BLB is already pretty annoying sometimes, when you kill the guy but die to his butt-nade.

 

The BYB idea came from trying to find a way to do something like H2's BXB, but make it so its not a "why wouldn't I just always do this" scenario. The tradeoff is that, in order to get any benefit out of it, the weapon would need to have a fast draw time, and only the weaker/niche weapons would have that. Trying to BYB with BR and Snipe would result in a slower melee than just meleeing twice with the BR.

 

Another thing that might make button combos a little more...intentionally designed, would be specific frames after a melee lands where the enemy player model would flash white for you (and only you), and if you hit a button during that frame you can skip the recovery animation and link into your next melee/shot/grenade. Maybe lighter weapons offer more linking frames so its easier to combo. That's something that could be relatively intuitive for players and wouldn't force them to memorize Street Fighter combos like H2 did.

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Do you even like Halo? Why are you still here? You seem to have a problem with every aspect of it. Nades are stupid and are too big and do too much damage. Melees as a whole are unfixable. Shooting is too easy. On and on and on with you. I'd tell you to just not play it, but you already don't, and haven't. Your constant presence on a forum for a game you seem to like nothing about continues to mystify me every day.

 

You don't like grenades and you don't like melees. Sounds like you just want an arena shooter. Guess what. Those already exist elsewhere, and I'm sure they'd love to have another player. So again, why are you here, every day? Because it seems to me and several others around here that you are only here to complain about stuff. Why would someone spend so much time around something they don't even enjoy? Why would they not just do the thing that they enjoy?

 

I suspect that you enjoy complaining about games and talking down to people on forums significantly more than you enjoy actually playing any game. This might explain why you never seem to speak with passion about anything in a positive way. Read your own post history. Notice the pattern. With the occasional exception, every post is a negative, snarky remark. Was there ever a time where you genuinely enjoyed this game, or are you just here because you've developed an aptitude for whining about stuff? Is the goal to be some kind of shitty game journalist yelp reviewer some day? I just don't get it. If complaining and whining is where you find your enjoyment in life, maybe its time to reevaluate some shit.

 

What's truly disheartening is seeing how your friendship with IcePrincess has rubbed off on her. It's become pretty apparent in her writing style of late, especially since you two tend to post in tandem. She used to have good, well articulated ideas and a unique tone that made for a pleasant read. Now it's like arg jr with the same negativity and contrarian opinions pushed with a condescending tone in every post.

 

As for your argument, I'd debate it if your end goal wasn't obviously un-Halo. We've spent the last several pages trying to find a way to make traditional Halo mechanics play at their best. Do you have any ideas you'd like to contribute? Of course not, because actually proposing an idea makes one vulnerable to criticism. Far easier to always be the one criticizing. If Halo's core mechanics are irredeemable to you without gutting 2/3rds of its combat, then I would have to ask you again, why the fuck are you here?

 

Did you really need that many paragraphs to relate the content of my character to my dislike of the Halo melee system? Jesus Christ. You're a 30-year-old man. Get a grip. It may shock you to know that I don't care what you think about me as a person solely because you're butt-mad that I bluntly discuss my issues with videogame mechanics you think are sacred. Shockingly, in 5 paragraphs, you constructed not a single counter-argument, because you're throwing a tantrum instead.

 

How DARE I question the value of anything nostalgia-driven Halo obsessives consider to be core mechanics?! Can't POSSIBLY talk about problems with "classic Halo" gameplay. Oh, no. The only bullshit that you will accept criticism of is post "classic trilogy" additions. Otherwise, clearly, one must not like Halo. So OBVIOUSLY "un-Halo" to suggest that Halo CE's blatantly fucking over-kill frag grenades are a problem, right? They do shit loads of damage, have a GIGANTIC blast radius, and you spawn with 4 of them. But it's CE, so it's off-limits. It's just so "un-Halo" to point out that the only part of them that really requires any brain power or skill is nading weapons and power-ups (which is very cool). Can't tone any of those other things down, though, because that just wouldn't be "Halo."

 

Go back to grinding for 50s in broken games with no skill matching.

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All this removing and nerfing melee talk when the reality is 343 will likely just buff melee like adding a Spartan Punch to replace Spartan Charge in H6. 'Hold down your melee button to charge up your one hit kill beatdown.'

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Especially in the earlier years of the MLG forums, Elitism was largely attributed to CE players constantly talking down to others. I feel that has changed largely as the ones still playing that game are ones that often don't visit forums of social media in general. To be honest I figured ARRRRRG was aware of CE's depth/nuances/meta. I wasn't aware he was oblivious to it.

 

I guess it's no different than the opinions of recent pros who claim the game is a 3shot fest without having any actual experience playing it in a meaningful way. The melee system in CE makes a lot of sense to me coming from someone who has competed in each title. Nades are definitely attributed towards being nukes, but again the only people I hear complaining are the ones that have very little experience with the game at a competitive level.

 

I really love the nade physics in CE minus plasmas. Frags have a long fuse time combined with a large blast radius allowing skilled players to avoid a lot of nades that are thrown all willy-nilly.. meaning they're banking them or bouncing them instead of throwing sliders.

 

Regarding melees though yes I do feel CE is the best in the series, but I do want to stress @@phil's point. This happens pretty frequently in CE and is something I rarely find in any other games. Halo 2 had a ridiculous lunge, and while it was possible to duck them, you mostly just forced your character into melee range resulting in traded damage. BXR and BLB helped alleviate this problem to an extent but isn't my ideal solution either. Halo 3 was just nonsense in my opinion and if I'm not mistaken I think the rest of the series kept it similar to H3 right? Non-stop trades seems like a concept where everyone wins/loses and is mindless.

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lmao. I'm not oblivious to it. I just don't think it's particularly meaningful nuance that adds real depth to the game. Sorry that I don't recall the exact damage difference between a stationary and "momentum" melee, as I am not a competitive Seee Eeee aficionado of your caliber (and, well, I actually don't care).

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@@Hard Way

 

As a kid I liked the original trilogy.

As an adult who has experienced several other games since and just has more refined tastes in general...several aspects of the trilogy haven't aged well at all.

 

I don't think Halo needs to literally become Quake or get a core identity revamp or any of those extremes.  I just think it needs to focus on further improving on everything Halo Ce got right instead of this status quo for the past eleven years of constantly rehashing everything Halo 2 got wrong then throwing awful gimmicks on top.  Halo Ce still holds up today because of the quality of it's design...I honestly don't feel the same about the other Halo games at all.

 

Since you mentioned ideas on how to improve things, take Ce and:

-Fix the undesirable bugs like jump delay, exiting crouch, models looking the wrong way, etc.

-Add in game clock, forge, file browser, other obvious modern features.

-Increase the weapon switch speed significantly.  Slow weapon switch speed doesn't exactly encourage use of niche weapons when it's usually faster just to stick with the utility and comboing is usually out of the question.

-Remove completely unneeded random spread and bloom mechanics from Sniper, Magnum, Shotgun, Plasma Rifle.

-Give slight buffs and tweaks to the relatively weak covenant weapons.  Like the Plasma Rifle having 25% faster TTK from it's molasses 1s HS / 2s BS TTK, or the Plasma Pistol actually being able to get a kill without overheating...

-Add DMR with Magnum's exact stats and functionality as default spawn weapon.  Nerf Magnum (4sk @ 1.0s) as an alternative spawn weapon for 4v4 modes.

-Reduce grenade blast radius.  I don't mind it but I don't see the harm in nerfing it either, it is a bit ridiculous.

-Reduce grenade self damage so grenade jumping is far more viable.  Have maps incorporate it more.

 

I could go on and on but that's a start.

 

Oh, and release the game on PC.

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Though I could counter this by saying why not have melee that does pitiful damage but knocks people back into a better shooting distance?  That might sound like I'm advocating Spartan Charge but that's different for a whole list of reasons.

 

Could also just make it do 0 damage, and make it a placebo attack to bait kids into trying to double melee you while you gun them down. Infinitely more entertaining than a pseudo function of Spartan Charge. Have you ever been subject to the knockback with charge that can fuck you out of a trade, or even just a normal gunfight? It should never be a thing with melee. Unless it depletes less than 25% of your shielding, and doesn't deal more damage than your spawn weapon, which is completely stupid given how simple and easy the mechanic is in general. But even then, I'd go "why bother" if the entire function's main point is to just get someone else to fire their gun. The main point of the game. It'd serve as a break in the game's main action to get BACK into the main action.

 

Have you not been reading this thread for like 3 or 4 days.  Fixing it has been the primary discussion with plenty of good ideas....

 

I literally jumped in randomly. And "good" is a massive subject of debate, but okay. This is the same forum that hates Fathom CTF, and even had some people vouching for Empire SH. Not saying you said it, but I've seen some ridiculous shit proclaimed as a viable opinion and I've lost faith, my dude.

 

TIL, melee, in the Halo franchise, is a "hamfisted" mechanic. I mean, you could definitely argue lunge is a bit ham-fisted, but the simple ability to melee is integral to Halo's identity.

 

I disagree. When I think of gameplay mechanics to make Halo, Halo, the last thing I think of is melee, bar how annoyingly dumb melee fights are, how stupid melee trades are, and why a single button press basically renders your gun useless and/or can fuck you out of a gunfight even if you ARE better than the other person who's meatsmacking you, and they happen to only do it out of the fact you're sitting right next to them. And I don't even think the general community thinks this, mind you. Not to appeal to popularity, but I can understand arguing for equal starts among players, and I can understand how simplistic movement is yearned for, coupled with how advanced movement makes Halo's map design very un-Halo-y. I will not understand keeping a dumb function in Halo for the sake of "identity", when it's not good. Or trying to make it better over just dropping it when it's a lost cause.

 

To go on, a utility weapon is key to Halo's identity in part. We've had a string of shitty utilities, leading up to the Magnum which is the first 100% accurate, single shot weapon we've got on launch. Going to that from the BR, which is inconsistent and a skill-gap killer is an example of a good change in something that is core to Halo, even if it wasn't executed 100% properly. Any change you make to melee will most likely either make it a redundant "why is this even here" function, or just keep it as stupid and mindless as it is, now. And I would gladly strip this element of Halo's "identity" when it's nothing but bullshit. 

 

Haha Kelly get fucked

 

Lmao. My forum life is overrrrrrr.

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Damn if only you were Beast Jr.

I'm learning, my dude. First, I learned thrust sliding in 2016, now I'm learning MAP MOVEMENT and aggressive playstyles. I'm on the ROAD.

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I'm learning, my dude. First, I learned thrust sliding in 2016, now I'm learning MAP MOVEMENT and aggressive playstyles. I'm on the ROAD.

Ah my sweet sweet child you are on your way daddy beast is proud.
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lmao. I'm not oblivious to it. I just don't think it's particularly meaningful nuance that adds real depth to the game. Sorry that I don't recall the exact damage difference between a stationary and "momentum" melee, as I am not a competitive Seee Eeee aficionado of your caliber (and, well, I actually don't care).

 

More to how to play the game at a high level and not the fact that concepts exist. Ninja for example apparently knows of "concepts" but writes off the game completely citing how everything is a 3 shot and nades are nukes. Valid complaints from someone who cited his experience as "used to play against my brother and he would come into the room and punch me every time I 3 shotted him.

 

There are people that play a lot of CE whether it was back in the day or online on MCC and when we LAN with them, they can name randoms and know how to quick camo but when it comes to the gameplay itself they aren't doing them correctly or able to apply their knowledge.

 

Whats crazy about CE is I'm nowhere near the top. You don't need to be an "aficionado" exactly but I guess it would help put some value behind the discussions.

 

For example, I used to play a tiny bit of CS back in the day when I had a PC. A lot of my friends from town played and there were players that graduated 5-6 years ahead of us that were really good. I forget if they were pro but I remember they played in a league we couldn't join. My one friend still plays with them and is constantly competing but back in the day, he taught me a lot. He showed me nade tricks, strats for specific rounds and how to fire properly along with sending me a bunch of resources. I would say that I spent a good amount of time learning this stuff and practicing it but when it came to applying everything he taught me in real time, I seemed to be oblivious to both the overall meta and some minor nuances to the game. I would say I played for maybe 6-8 months in 2007. I certainly have no problem admitting that I'm pretty oblivious to how high-level CS actually works, even though I understand a lot of the game itself.

 

No need to apologize though. 

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Here is a system I would put for Melee.

 

To get this out of the way, my system is still 2 hits for a kill. But here is where things differ...

 

The lunge range will be short, say 2.5 meters (Half of Halo 5's lunge lol). The aim assist won't kick in unless your cursor is fully on the enemy body. However, once you land the melee, the enemy is pushed by the punch of a half ton seven foot wall of Spartan. The enemy is pushed at least twice the melee range (5 meters) and his shields are broken. He's killed by a head shot.

 

Instead of needing momentum in the melee, the melee now makes the momentum. But here's some more stuff to put in this system...

 

When a player is walking or standing and he attempts to melee an enemy, he'll always hit above the belt. That means if the victim sees the punch coming, he can crouch just before the melee comes. The melee misses, and the crouching victim punches back; the enemy is sent backward and finished off with a head shot.

 

We're still not done. Let's use the above scenario, but have it play differently.

 

The victim sees the enemy lining up for a punch, so he's ready. The melee comes, but the victim returns with a fist as well. The two players clash, the power of two seven foot walls of Spartan ring in the arena, and they're both pushed back. Not only that, but the damage they received is halved. Now both players have a chance to duke it out in a gun fight, or try to out maneuver each other with melee.

 

Scenarios that could play out:

 

-Player 1 (P1) attempts to melee Player 2 (P2). P2 fires a few shots before the melee connects, ducks the punch and retaliates with a killing blow.

-P1 Shoots a couple of shots at P2 and follows up with a punch. P2 Punches back, making a clash, and out strafes the enemy with very little health.

-P1 attempts to melee P2. P2 jumps and punches into P1, making a clash, and is sent up in the air atop a platform behind him. Gunfight ensues.

-P1 crouches before he punches P2. P2 jumps over the punch, and back wacks P1.

-P1 and P2 are in the air and clash. It looks fucking cool.

 

So there you have it. My personal changes for Melee in Halo. Thoughts?

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What's truly disheartening is seeing how your friendship with IcePrincess has rubbed off on her. It's become pretty apparent in her writing style of late, especially since you two tend to post in tandem. She used to have good, well articulated ideas and a unique tone that made for a pleasant read. Now it's like arg jr with the same negativity and contrarian opinions pushed with a condescending tone in every post.

I used to be positive and joke around and I got shit on for it here, lmao, so excuse the slightly jaded and pissed nature. But no, weirdly enough, we don't exactly talk a lot. I mean, we'll interact in parties and shit, but that's rare. My attitude doesn't come from Arg in spite of similarities, I've just learned a lot since I joined here and convey what I feel in a similar way to him. Mind you, 2015/16 me loved Halo 5 and thought it was god's gift. I was a biased child. We happen to share some opinions, but I don't get them from him, nor do I try to emulate him, necessarily.

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I used to be positive and joke around and I got shit on for it here, lmao, so excuse the slightly jaded and pissed nature. But no, weirdly enough, we don't exactly talk a lot. I mean, we'll interact in parties and shit, but that's rare. My attitude doesn't come from Arg in spite of similarities, I've just learned a lot since I joined here and convey what I feel in a similar way to him. Mind you, 2015/16 me loved Halo 5 and thought it was god's gift. I was a biased child. We happen to share some opinions, but I don't get them from him, nor do I try to emulate him, necessarily.

You're just turning into the rest of us when we think about modern Halo games lol. I'm pretty sure everyone goes through it eventually with this series. I sort of "fixed" it by just playing older games that don't trigger me in the same way that something like H4/H5 would

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You're just turning into the rest of us when we think about modern Halo games lol

I mean, basically. Don't get me wrong, I can rant and bitch here all day and I still play the games since I love Halo, and always will. 

 

At least you don't stat smh

Bitch, your name should be My Namez BAIT, and you know it. I will bait you until the end of time for my precious statting fests.

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I mean, basically. Don't get me wrong, I can rant and bitch here all day and I still play the games since I love Halo, and always will.

 

Bitch, your name should be My Namez BAIT, and you know it. I will bait you until the end of time for my precious statting fests.

I miss the old Kelly. The dive bomb objectives Kelly. now it's ALL about stats smh I blame Arg.

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Yes. Good, Kelly. Shift the blame away from me. They'll never see it coming when my contrarian anti-Halo sentmients take over the community. Soon everyone will hate essential, defining elements of Halo like pressing a button to instantly punch stuff and throwing nukes across the map to do shitloads of damage to people you can't see. All going as planned.

 

:simms: 

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I miss the old Kelly. The dive bomb objectives Kelly. now it's ALL about stats smh I blame Arg.

The dive bomb objectives girl who'd go neggity neg. Teehee. Never again will I jump in a stronghold. Fuck that gametype and what it entails.

Yes. Good, Kelly. Shift the blame away from me. They'll never see it coming when my contrarian anti-Halo sentmients take over the community. Soon everyone will hate essential, defining elements of Halo like pressing a button to instantly punch stuff and throwing nukes across the map to do shitloads of damage to people you can't see. All going as planned.

 

:simms:

Emperor Argatine.

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