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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Explain how you can maintain spacing when lunging is literally erasing all spacing between players to achieve a hit???

 

lunge isn't inherently erasing "all spacing". that's wholly dependant on how its implemented. the amount of spacing erased would be a function of (attacker's strafe speed + lunge speed) - (defender's strafe speed) assuming all of this movement is happening on the same axis. if implemented correctly and with better footwork, a player would be able to create space by backing up after landing a hit. assuming players are using weapons with identical melee ranges, it would mean baiting the opponent to miss a melee, landing a blow as he backpeddles, then immediately retreating.

 

Which is exactly what I'm arguing for...? You're the one that wants to eliminate z space to achieve a hit dude.

nope. i don't want to "eliminate" z space. I'm saying it feels good to have some forward feedback response to triggering a melee. the existence of some forward lunge doesn't neccisarily mean that someone would cover enough ground to respond to being hit, or even retaliate on the correct axis.

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Honestly melees should have no magnetism and no lunge(or the lunge should be short as hell) man I swear I’ve been melee’d too many times where the stupid fuck wasn’t looking at me at all. There really needs to be a counter to melee’s. Something like the sword block from reach

Why not just remove melees. Rather than trying to convolute the sandbox with counters or nerfs that may or may not fuck the game up. Remove melees and just keep melee weapons. It's stupid being meleed in general. Why is one button enough to make you one shot in close quarters? It's the equivalent of throwing a nade. Just a mindless action. Has been in every Halo game. And you're not suddenly gonna make melees take skill.

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If they retained the function of lunges as you say here, no magnetism and you lunge regardless RR, that might be ok.  My main 2 concerns are these:

 

1) Melee spamming to move faster.  since you lunge regardless of if you have a target or not, how do you limit it so it can just be spammed for people to lunge repeatedly clear across the map?  My assumption would be that after each lunge you come to a complete stop with melee cooldown but i am not sure how that would "feel" since for every other halo you could melee the air while moving and not effect your movement speed.

 

2) How do you make it feel like you actually planted your feet and threw a punch rather than just magically shot forward?

 

 

Elite melee in Halo CE.

 

I just think it works perfectly there, and should be no different for the player. Thrusters will probably muddy things (when does it not) in terms of melee's usefulness, but these are Spartans. Spartans launch punches or kicks much faster than any Elite or Knight does, and iirc you will take an Elite melee to the face if you don't anticipate it.

 

How it works in the air... honestly depends on whether or not thruster pack is in the game. Tons of different ways to go about this and plenty of opportunities for a unique traits or animation. Ideally you wouldn't have the same animation for both ground and air melee, though.

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Why not just remove melees. Rather than trying to convolute the sandbox with counters or nerfs that may or may not fuck the game up. Remove melees and just keep melee weapons. It's stupid being meleed in general. Why is one button enough to make you one shot in close quarters? It's the equivalent of throwing a nade. Just a mindless action. Has been in every Halo game. And you're not suddenly gonna make melees take skill.

Is this sarcasm?

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Removing melees from Halo would be like removing ADS in CoD, or jumping in Quake.

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Removing melees from Halo would be like removing ADS in CoD, or jumping in Quake.

Its certainly one of the more asinine things I have read in a while.  Its a simple original mechanic with opportunity for depth that hasn't been realized since Halo 2, and even that was just a happy accident.  A staple of the game that for one reason or another has repeatedly gotten dumbed down. Its not like sprint where the negative aspects are far reaching into every corner of the game design/balance/speed.  Melee just needs to be fixed, not removed. Thats idiotic.

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I don’t understand why everyone thinks casual gamers will be confused if weapons have different melee speeds, hit boxes, and power. I don’t think anyone is going to stop playing the game because their melee didn’t connect to their opponent but their opponents melee connected on them. Casual gamers love COD and that’s one of the most needlessly complex and random ass games ever made. You can shoot an opponent with the exact same gun the same number of times and still lose the fight while they walk away all because of some perk they had that you couldn’t possibly counter or prepare for.

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Its certainly one of the more asinine things I have read in a while.  Its a simple original mechanic with opportunity for depth that hasn't been realized since Halo 2, and even that was just a happy accident.  A staple of the game that for one reason or another has repeatedly gotten dumbed down. Its not like sprint where the negative aspects are far reaching into every corner of the game design/balance/speed.  Melee just needs to be fixed, not removed. Thats idiotic.

 

Melee has always been mindless and overpowered. It just happened to be at its most tolerable in CE because it was actually humanly possible to MISS. Hmmm. Do I aim my precision weapon or throw out a melee anywhere on their body to make them instantly one shot? Deep, strategic gameplay. Truly a staple of the Golden Triangle™.

 

gt.png

 

As compared to the CS system where melee is dog shit from the front and using it puts you at serious risk in a direct fight. Its primary application is non-combat utility. You know, instead of literally just an easier alternative to firing your weapon if they're close.

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Removing melees from Halo would be like removing ADS in CoD, or jumping in Quake.

Melees wouldn't be bad to be rid of, either. Soooo.

 

Its certainly one of the more asinine things I have read in a while.  Its a simple original mechanic with opportunity for depth that hasn't been realized since Halo 2, and even that was just a happy accident.  A staple of the game that for one reason or another has repeatedly gotten dumbed down. Its not like sprint where the negative aspects are far reaching into every corner of the game design/balance/speed.  Melee just needs to be fixed, not removed. Thats idiotic.

And how do you intend to fix or diversify a mechanic that acts as nothing more but a shield dropper in CQC? Why not just remove the option that's, as Arg said, an easier alternative to firing your gun, the primary goal of the game, over trying to hamfist said dumb mechanic in.

 

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Who said melees have to knock out your shield entirely? What the fuck am I reading today? 

 

Did Boyo take over y'alls accounts?

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Who said melees have to knock out your shield entirely? What the fuck am I reading today? 

 

Did Boyo take over y'alls accounts?

So, they knock out a part of your shield and melee fights either become spam fests, orrrrr, the lowered damage just makes people fire their guns more anyway, resulting in a better outcome with the same needless mechanic.

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Lunge and stupid easy melee trading is dumb. But there's a skill gap in melee fights in CE, and often it's better to shoot the person rather than go for the riskier beatdown/double melee.

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Lunge and stupid easy melee trading is dumb. But there's a skill gap in melee fights in CE, and often it's better to shoot the person rather than go for the riskier beatdown/double melee.

Lunge itself isn't inherently bad. It's the aim assist that comes with it that's bad. It shouldn't come with every weapon though.

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Who said melees have to knock out your shield entirely? What the fuck am I reading today? 

 

Did Boyo take over y'alls accounts?

 

Seems like a fairly reasonable assumption given that it has always done that in Halo games.

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Melees wouldn't be bad to be rid of, either. Soooo.

 

And how do you intend to fix or diversify a mechanic that acts as nothing more but a shield dropper in CQC? Why not just remove the option that's, as Arg said, an easier alternative to firing your gun, the primary goal of the game, over trying to hamfist said dumb mechanic in.

 

 

Have you not been reading this thread for like 3 or 4 days.  Fixing it has been the primary discussion with plenty of good ideas....

 

 

Melee has always been mindless and overpowered. It just happened to be at its most tolerable in CE because it was actually humanly possible to MISS. Hmmm. Do I aim my precision weapon or throw out a melee anywhere on their body to make them instantly one shot? Deep, strategic gameplay. Truly a staple of the Golden Triangle™.

 

 

As compared to the CS system where melee is dog shit from the front and using it puts you at serious risk in a direct fight. Its primary application is non-combat utility. You know, instead of literally just an easier alternative to firing your weapon if they're close.

 

Why are we giving a shit what CS does here?  I understand the merits of CS, but its not necessary to compare it to Halo whenever possible.  Its a totally different game by design.  Why should be care how CS does melees?  Melee's get a heck of a lot more interesting if there isn't insane magnetism, add differential characteristics per class/weapon/whatever is picked, and its likely to miss if you aren't actually aiming.  All shit that has been done before, all shit that could come back and be improved upon.

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Seems like a fairly reasonable assumption given that it has always done that in Halo games.

Did you just forget about Halo CE? 

 

Come on brah, you're better than that. 

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Have you not been reading this thread for like 3 or 4 days.  Fixing it has been the primary discussion with plenty of good ideas....

 

 

Why are we giving a shit what CS does here?  I understand the merits of CS, but its not necessary to compare it to Halo whenever possible.  Its a totally different game by design.  Why should be care how CS does melees?  Melee's get a heck of a lot more interesting if there isn't insane magnetism, add differential characteristics per class/weapon/whatever is picked, and its likely to miss if you aren't actually aiming.  All shit that has been done before, all shit that could come back and be improved upon.

 

Because it's one of the few FPS games people play that has melee that isn't stupid and over-powered? Not only does Halo not require you to switch to a melee weapon, but melee attacks do shitloads of damage as well. I also think you over-estimate what minor differences in animation speed and hurtbox size actually bring to the table in terms of meaningful depth. Same goes for introducing more inconsistency (and not much else) with "momentum melees," which people have a weird boner for.

 

Sorry, but I like actually shooting in shooting games. I'm weird like that. Same reason I don't like giant blast radius nuke grenades (another staple of the CE experience).

 

 

Did you just forget about Halo CE? 

 

Come on brah, you're better than that. 

 

Is this a momentum melee thing? Sorry, I don't care to remember the nuances of CE's melee system at this point, because it's not really that interesting.

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Melee is a convenience in shooters. Close-up gunfights are awkward, especially in a game like Halo where you can't back off really quickly after clashing with an enemy.

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Melee in itself (at least in Halo) makes CQC combat easier than aiming your gun.  That's the sole reason it exists as a concept.

 

When you throw in magnetism (removing the need to aim) and lunge (removing the trade off of having to position properly to use it), then you're just making it stupidly easy on top of how easy it already is.  If nothing else then at the very least those mechanics are completely asinine.  Halo and CoD are pretty much the ONLY games to have these mechanics.  Not Quake.  Not UT.  Not CS.  Not Rainbow Six.  Not Overwatch.  Not even fucking Fortnite.

 

Of course taking pure competitive merit to it's logical extreme I could just as easily make (largely subjective) arguments against recharging shields and health, only carrying two weapons at a time, reloading, descoping, all sorts of other Halo gameplay staples.  We're not here to make a pure competitive shooter, we're here to make Halo as competitive as it can be while still being identifiable as Halo.

 

More on topic though:

-Weapons having different melee properties has barely any impact on anything.  How many times are you going to melee someone with the Rocket Launcher, and what portion of that involves actually being outside the range of a different weapon?  It's cool but ultimately meaningless.

-Momentum based melee damage at least adds some depth and risk/reward to the system.  BYB at least adds some mechanical skill to a mechanic that otherwise removes the need for skill.

-All this focus on improving the depth of melee seems pointless to me.  It's such a minor aspect of the game and there are far more important areas that desperately need their depth adjusted.

 

 

 

Melee is a convenience in shooters. Close-up gunfights are awkward, especially in a game like Halo where you can't back off really quickly after clashing with an enemy.

 

This is valid and is why I don't necessarily hate well-designed Melee.

 

Though I could counter this by saying why not have melee that does pitiful damage but knocks people back into a better shooting distance?  That might sound like I'm advocating Spartan Charge but that's different for a whole list of reasons.

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Halo has never, and will never, play like a true arena shooter. Sorry guys. The entire genre is basically dead at this moment in time. Could they make a comeback? Yes, but not for years. 

 

Halo plays differently that almost every game out there and removing melees would just make it MORE generic. 

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Halo has never, and will never, play like a true arena shooter. Sorry guys. The entire genre is basically dead at this moment in time. Could they make a comeback? Yes, but not for years. 

 

Halo plays differently that almost every game out there and removing melees would just make it MORE generic. 

Nah dude CS:GO you don't melee and it's the most popular FPS in the world.

 

More like CS:GO

Less like anything else you play

/s

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Because it's one of the few FPS games people play that has melee that isn't stupid and over-powered? Not only does Halo not require you to switch to a melee weapon, but melee attacks do shitloads of damage as well. I also think you over-estimate what minor differences in animation speed and hurtbox size actually bring to the table in terms of meaningful depth. Same goes for introducing more inconsistency (and not much else) with "momentum melees," which people have a weird boner for.

 

Sorry, but I like actually shooting in shooting games. I'm weird like that. Same reason I don't like giant blast radius nuke grenades (another staple of the CE experience).

 

 

 

Is this a momentum melee thing? Sorry, I don't care to remember the nuances of CE's melee system at this point, because it's not really that interesting.

 

Do you even like Halo? Why are you still here? You seem to have a problem with every aspect of it. Nades are stupid and are too big and do too much damage. Melees as a whole are unfixable. Shooting is too easy. On and on and on with you. I'd tell you to just not play it, but you already don't, and haven't. Your constant presence on a forum for a game you seem to like nothing about continues to mystify me every day.

 

You don't like grenades and you don't like melees. Sounds like you just want an arena shooter. Guess what. Those already exist elsewhere, and I'm sure they'd love to have another player. So again, why are you here, every day? Because it seems to me and several others around here that you are only here to complain about stuff. Why would someone spend so much time around something they don't even enjoy? Why would they not just do the thing that they enjoy?

 

I suspect that you enjoy complaining about games and talking down to people on forums significantly more than you enjoy actually playing any game. This might explain why you never seem to speak with passion about anything in a positive way. Read your own post history. Notice the pattern. With the occasional exception, every post is a negative, snarky remark. Was there ever a time where you genuinely enjoyed this game, or are you just here because you've developed an aptitude for whining about stuff? Is the goal to be some kind of shitty game journalist yelp reviewer some day? I just don't get it. If complaining and whining is where you find your enjoyment in life, maybe its time to reevaluate some shit.

 

What's truly disheartening is seeing how your friendship with IcePrincess has rubbed off on her. It's become pretty apparent in her writing style of late, especially since you two tend to post in tandem. She used to have good, well articulated ideas and a unique tone that made for a pleasant read. Now it's like arg jr with the same negativity and contrarian opinions pushed with a condescending tone in every post.

 

As for your argument, I'd debate it if your end goal wasn't obviously un-Halo. We've spent the last several pages trying to find a way to make traditional Halo mechanics play at their best. Do you have any ideas you'd like to contribute? Of course not, because actually proposing an idea makes one vulnerable to criticism. Far easier to always be the one criticizing. If Halo's core mechanics are irredeemable to you without gutting 2/3rds of its combat, then I would have to ask you again, why the fuck are you here?

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