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CyReN

Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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lunge itself isn't really problematic. the problem is that 1) it's a function of the aim-assist system and 2) it travels too far. it actually feels good to get some lunge as a feedback response, and it ties well with the melee animations that serve as a melee cooldown.

 

I'd be fine with keeping lunge if it was slight, completely devoid of magnetism, and wasn't determined by aim-assist being active.

 

my problem with "button combos" is that they are opaque. they aren't really an example of subtle depth, but hidden complexity. you generally can't learn them naturally through basic exposure to gameplay systems as they don't "make sense" in relation to how mechanics are communicated. instead they get discovered by the hardcore, then taught through social interaction. it's artificial.

 

let people outskill others at point blank range by making melee skillful and dodgeable. that's where having different range,damage,strike zones comes and the removal of magnetism comes into play,

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They could be officially supported with tutorials or simply a page in controller settings displaying how to use them. They really don't have to be hidden or secretive. Just do it like the entire fighting game genre does it. It doesn't have to be a literal BxR it could be anything they can think of as long as it remained simple to execute but added depth

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lunge itself isn't really problematic. the problem is that 1) it's a function of the aim-assist system and 2) it travels too far. it actually feels good to get some lunge as a feedback response, and it ties well with the melee animations that serve as a melee cooldown.

 

I'd be fine with keeping lunge if it was slight, completely devoid of magnetism, and wasn't determined by aim-assist being active.

 

my problem with "button combos" is that they are opaque. they aren't really an example of subtle depth, but hidden complexity. you generally can't learn them naturally through basic exposure to gameplay systems as they don't "make sense" in relation to how mechanics are communicated. instead they get discovered by the hardcore, then taught through social interaction. it's artificial.

 

let people outskill others at point blank range by making melee skillful and dodgeable. that's where having different range,damage,strike zones comes and the removal of magnetism comes into play,

Lunges suck because when you land a melee, you're almost guaranteeing you'll be melee'd in return. Imagine if you connect a melee from the absolute edge of melee range and then step backwards. Your opponent tries to return the melee, but now they miss rather than easy return damage because you're literally right in their face.

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Lunges suck because when you land a melee, you're almost guaranteeing you'll be melee'd in return. Imagine no lunge where you connect a melee from the absolute edge of melee range and then step backwards. Your opponent tries to return the melee, but now they miss rather than easy return damage because you're literally right in their face.

Currently, lunges only guaruntee a return melee because the lunge has magnetism, and the strike zones are massive.

 

Again, if you remove the aim-assist, magnetism, and require people to be cognizant of the weapons strike zone, then a good player would have an avenue to avoid the return melee. Just because a player lunges, doesn’t mean the attack would land.

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I take less issue with lunge than I do with the incredibly wide angle a melee can hit in. Narrow that down to, say, the width of the Spartan Charge reticle and I think melee would be a lot better right away.

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I think frame cancellation "button combos" like YY to cancel reload animations and BLB make more sense and are inherently easier to learn. Stuff like RRX and BXR will always be counter-intuitive. And then we have the problem of macros and modded controllers which means these combos have to be super niche in use and overall cannot be too powerful or the game will suffer tremendously outside of tournament play where rules can actually be enforced.

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Good idea or bad idea:

 

A precision weapon who’s max RoF can only be achieved by pacing shots. Spamming punishes RoF instead of accuracy. Thoughts?

I like it more than accuracy bloom. With accuracy bloom somebody spamming has a chance of beating the player pacing. At least with punishing rate of fire the pacing player should always come out on top unless they miss their shots. I still think I'd prefer no pacing at all though.

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I like it more than accuracy bloom. With accuracy bloom somebody spamming has a chance of beating the player pacing. At least with punishing rate of fire the pacing player should always come out on top unless they miss their shots. I still think I'd prefer no pacing at all though.

I still believe reach v7 was the perfect halo in regards to accuracy. Zero bloom there was spread but it wasn’t noticeable at all, and for the most part was 99% accurate.

Here’s a question I have for you all here, why is everyone so obsessed with a 4sk utility weapon? Like sure even I prefer it myself but I’m just saying.

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I like it more than accuracy bloom. With accuracy bloom somebody spamming has a chance of beating the player pacing. At least with punishing rate of fire the pacing player should always come out on top unless they miss their shots. I still think I'd prefer no pacing at all though.

I still believe reach v7 was the perfect halo in regards to accuracy. Zero bloom there was spread but it wasn’t noticeable at all, and for the most part was 99% accurate.

Here’s a question I have for you all here, why is everyone so obsessed with a 4sk utility weapon? Like sure even I prefer it myself but I’m just saying.

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I still believe reach v7 was the perfect halo in regards to accuracy. Zero bloom there was spread but it wasn’t noticeable at all, and for the most part was 99% accurate.

Here’s a question I have for you all here, why is everyone so obsessed with a 4sk utility weapon? Like sure even I prefer it myself but I’m just saying.

 

1. Halo 2 Nostalgia.

2. The games insist on being hitscan and people generally don't want the alternative of a hitscan 3sk because it is harder to design it's difficulty of use properly and becomes oppressive at range.

3. Halo 3 Nostalgia.

4. People think 5-shots drags on too long.  I disagree.

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I like 3-shot 4-shot and 5-shot utility weapon.

 

It really doesn’t matter to me so long as they get the RoF, DPS and difficulty correct.

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4. People think 5-shots drags on too long. I disagree.

Do you think a 5 shot kill magnum would work well in a classic halo setting?

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Do you think a 5 shot kill magnum would work well in a classic halo setting?

 

5-shot weapon worked out fine for Reach NBNS and Halo Ce (it usually averaged at five shots like the modern DMR's do).

 

The problem with the Magnum in Halo 5 is that it's just outperformed by rifles with either faster killtimes, more magnetism, or extended red reticle range.  None of which has to be the case.

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lunge itself isn't really problematic. the problem is that 1) it's a function of the aim-assist system and 2) it travels too far. it actually feels good to get some lunge as a feedback response, and it ties well with the melee animations that serve as a melee cooldown.

 

I'd be fine with keeping lunge if it was slight, completely devoid of magnetism, and wasn't determined by aim-assist being active.

 

my problem with "button combos" is that they are opaque. they aren't really an example of subtle depth, but hidden complexity. you generally can't learn them naturally through basic exposure to gameplay systems as they don't "make sense" in relation to how mechanics are communicated. instead they get discovered by the hardcore, then taught through social interaction. it's artificial.

 

let people outskill others at point blank range by making melee skillful and dodgeable. that's where having different range,damage,strike zones comes and the removal of magnetism comes into play,

If they retained the function of lunges as you say here, no magnetism and you lunge regardless RR, that might be ok.  My main 2 concerns are these:

1) Melee spamming to move faster.  since you lunge regardless of if you have a target or not, how do you limit it so it can just be spammed for people to lunge repeatedly clear across the map?  My assumption would be that after each lunge you come to a complete stop with melee cooldown but i am not sure how that would "feel" since for every other halo you could melee the air while moving and not effect your movement speed.

2) How do you make it feel like you actually planted your feet and threw a punch rather than just magically shot forward?

 

I still believe reach v7 was the perfect halo in regards to accuracy. Zero bloom there was spread but it wasn’t noticeable at all, and for the most part was 99% accurate.

Here’s a question I have for you all here, why is everyone so obsessed with a 4sk utility weapon? Like sure even I prefer it myself but I’m just saying.

 

I think if you have a reasonable perfect kill time (1 second-ish) 4 shot just feels best.  More than that starts to feel spammy, less than that feels too slow.  Unpopular opinion around here but I am not in the camp that thinks a .6 - .8 second perfect kill time is good for 4v4 Halo.  I think 4 shot also gives you a good opportunity to create a weapon with a large delta between perfect and max TTKs if you make it 4 shot with headshot or 7 shot body shit kill.  The current 5 shot pistol feels slightly too fast to shoot imo for the 1.2 second kill time.  Reduce the kill time by a half shot and make it a 4 shot kill but retain the 7 body shot kill and i think its in a better place without screwing up anything else.

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Currently, lunges only guaruntee a return melee because the lunge has magnetism, and the strike zones are massive.

 

Again, if you remove the aim-assist, magnetism, and require people to be cognizant of the weapons strike zone, then a good player would have an avenue to avoid the return melee. Just because a player lunges, doesn’t mean the attack would land.

If two competent players are facing each other and you lunge and connect a melee, even without magnetism there's a huge chance they land a melee back considering you're literally covering the majority of their screen afterwards. No lunge is much more skillful because you can maintain perfect spacing before and after the melee attack to ensure a miss from your opponent. Take fighting games like smash where proper spacing can allow you to hit your opponent and still maintain enough space so that they can't counter attack. If you lunge at them you're just at the mercy of them aiming poorly. Sure you could crouch or jump, but no matter what you're still within melee range for a much longer period of time. Skilled players that can space correctly can be within melee range for a single frame if they time their melee correctly leaving zero opportunity for a counterattack.

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The best part of having different melee hitboxes is to add more situational advantages. The utility weapon should have one of the most difficult melees because it’s so useful for shooting. Any short range weapon should have a faster or longer-reaching melee. It kind of misses the point just to have different melee properties based on the size and shape of the gun. It should be a lot like quick camo.

 

But this is assuming the sandbox has interesting situational balance instead of “at this range this gun wins.” What would likely happen is that already unstoppable weapons like the Storm Rifle 2.0 get a sword lunge. The most important thing is to just make melees more difficult so that close-quarters combat, the most interesting area of combat, is rendered less brainless. (edit: by means of encouraging using your gun more in close-quarters)

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If two competent players are facing each other and you lunge and connect a melee, even without magnetism there's a huge chance they land a melee back considering you're literally covering the majority of their screen afterwards. No lunge is much more skillful because you can maintain perfect spacing before and after the melee attack to ensure a miss from your opponent. Take fighting games like smash where proper spacing can allow you to hit your opponent and still maintain enough space so that they can't counter attack. If you lunge at them you're just at the mercy of them aiming poorly. Sure you could crouch or jump, but no matter what you're still within melee range for a much longer period of time. Skilled players that can space correctly can be within melee range for a single frame if they time their melee correctly leaving zero opportunity for a counterattack.

Fighting games often have lunge though. It’s the fact that attacks are dodgeable and blockable that allow you to counter, despite the lunge. Skilled players learn the nuance of their opponents attacks and use that knowledge to determine their own attacks and movements.

 

In any game, landing a melee attack requires you to momentarily enter the opponents attack range. Lunge doesn’t change that, it just means than minimum range is > 0. Whether you land an attack w/o taking damage depends on your timing being better than your opponents.

 

If they retained the function of lunges as you say here, no magnetism and you lunge regardless RR, that might be ok. My main 2 concerns are these:

1) Melee spamming to move faster. since you lunge regardless of if you have a target or not, how do you limit it so it can just be spammed for people to lunge repeatedly clear across the map? My assumption would be that after each lunge you come to a complete stop with melee cooldown but i am not sure how that would "feel" since for every other halo you could melee the air while moving and not effect your movement speed.

2) How do you make it feel like you actually planted your feet and threw a punch rather than just magically shot forward?

 

 

1) Not sure really. A lunge is a temporary forward acceleration boost. Perhaps a failure to connect temporarily reduce your forward acceleration such that your net movement speed is unchanged.

 

2) I think that comes with better animations. CE melees felt weak. H2s onward felt teleporty. Reduce the distance, improve the animation I think you find a sweet spot in the middle.

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Fighting games often have lunge though. It’s the fact that attacks are dodgeable and blockable that allow you to counter, despite the lunge. Skilled players learn the nuance of their opponents attacks and use that knowledge to determine their own attacks and movements.

 

In any game, landing a melee attack requires you to momentarily enter the opponents attack range. Lunge doesn’t change that, it just means than minimum range is > 0. Whether you land an attack w/o taking damage depends on your timing being better than your opponents.

You're not really even addressing what I'm talking about. With lunge you can try to dodge a counter attack by moving left-right or up-down. Without lunge you can still do that but also forward/back much more effectively as well. If the game forces you to lunge forward when you score a hit, you are forced into point blank range for an unnecessarily long amount of time.

 

CS:GO knife fights are another example of what I'm talking about. By strafing forward/back you can consecutively hit your opponent and remain untouched because you have a better feel for the timing and max strike distance. Forced lunge only lowers the skill gap by forcing you well past the max range so that your opponent has a near guaranteed counter hit.

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4sk w/ 1 second perfect TTK is the way to go. It's not spammy like 5sk, so misses matter a lot more. A 2 man teamshot can kill in 2 shots instead of 3. It just feels right.

 

Lunge melees are either too easy, shallow, and teleporty, or if you unbind them from red reticle, then they make movement awkward and you have to design countermeasures to offset it, not unlike sprint. Halo 1 had the foundation. We should be iterating on that by letting crouch/jump dodge melees, narrowing the hit box from left to right so strafing matters, and creating niche uses for certain weapons in the sandbox that deepen the melee game. For example, weapons with faster draw times could create a faster melee combo by switching to them, like a BYB.

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You're not really even addressing what I'm talking about. With lunge you can try to dodge a counter attack by moving left-right or up-down. Without lunge you can still do that but also forward/back much more effectively as well. If the game forces you to lunge forward when you score a hit, you are forced into point blank range for an unnecessarily long amount of time.

 

CS:GO knife fights are another example of what I'm talking about. By strafing forward/back you can consecutively hit your opponent and remain untouched because you have a better feel for the timing and max strike distance. Forced lunge only lowers the skill gap by forcing you well past the max range so that your opponent has a near guaranteed counter hit.

I AM addressing what you are talking about. You’re arguing that it’s too hard to maintain your spacing if lunge. I’m saying, with lunge, if done properly you still have an avenue to maintain spacing - just like in a fighting game. It would take an understanding of the unique melee properties your weapon and your opponents.

 

Whether or not forward/backward would effective in a given scenario would depend on the specifics of that scenario: the dynamics of your weapon vs that of your opponents weapon. Making it so that forward/backward is equally reliable in every situation isn’t increasing the skill gap, it just reduces the need to know when its appropriate to incorporate left/right and up/down into your counter measures.

 

The “near guarunteed counter-hit” exist because, currently, lunge not only brings you closer, but carries you very far, magnetizes you to your opponent and has a massive, uniform strike-zone for all weapons.

 

Combat is happening in 3D- the concept of spacing doesn’t need to be dominated by a single axis.

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Depends what we’re talking about in hard of use? I felt that reach had that perfect since strafing at 110% or 120%(don’t remember been a while) gave you the ability to pull off wicked strafed. I still remember on single halo clips a guy kills 3 players by himself(2 of them started the fight full shields) and won because of his strafe and superior aim.

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I AM addressing what you are talking about. You’re arguing that it’s too hard to maintain your spacing if lunge. I’m saying, with lunge, if done properly you still have an avenue to maintain spacing - just like in a fighting game.

Explain how you can maintain spacing when lunging is literally erasing all spacing between players to achieve a hit???

 

Combat is happening in 3D- the concept of spacing doesn’t need to be dominated by a single axis.

Which is exactly what I'm arguing for...? You're the one that wants to eliminate z space to achieve a hit dude.
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They could be officially supported with tutorials or simply a page in controller settings displaying how to use them. They really don't have to be hidden or secretive. Just do it like the entire fighting game genre does it. It doesn't have to be a literal BxR it could be anything they can think of as long as it remained simple to execute but added depth

Yep, you could 100% create button combos as a game play mechanic and have a lore excuse for it. People here just aren't thinking outside the box.
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Yep, you could 100% create button combos as a game play mechanic and have a lore excuse for it. People here just aren't thinking outside the box.

 

Yea, but when is the last time a modern mainstream shooter had a MP "tutorial?" I think you would be laughed out and thrown out of most board rooms if you suggested adding a mechanic so complex it required a tutorial to learn. I can just imagine Quinn Delhoyo wearing his Final Boss hoodie and MLG hat pitching the new BxR BR mechanic for Halo 6 to Frankie and Kiki lmao. I would pay money to be able to see that happen. Which is exactly why mainstream shooters blow and fail to hold my attention past a couple weeks, there hasn't been a modern shooter sequel that has increased in complexity and competitive depth in forever. The new IP's like Lawbreakers that try to break that trend fail miserably and after a few weeks we never hear from them again because the mainstream market just eclipses everything and reinforces the same mechanics, game style, and softness over and over again. I honestly cant recall a time and thats saying alot since I have played 100's of shooter games over the decades. And no thats not a gaming problem, just look at the recent resurgence of hardcore action RPGs and oldschool cRPGs, that is specifically a shooter industry problem.

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The sad thing to me about the button combos is that we already know it works from CE/H2. That was totally the avenue for Halo to break away from trends and be its own game rather than copying the mechanics from other shooters. It would just double down on what Halo did that's so different. That same scenario played out in Quake and strafe jumping was added in officially afterwards and it became an integral part of the game. We just threw away the "happy accidents" that Halo had and watered the series down. Weapon/power up nading from CE is another thing they should just completely return.

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