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CyReN

Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I don’t think momentum should be rewarded because I think players should pretty much be in continuous motion with their weapons dealing consistent damage. It sounds like you want shoulder charger or whatever H5 calls it. That rewards momentum and seems dumb as shit.

Momentum would be mostly just holding forward. So if you sit around a corner camping and somebody walks through the door and you both melee, the aggressive player will do slightly more damage. I think it's good just to promote aggression.

 

With spartan charge it moves the other player, shakes their screen, prevents them from meleeing back, and I think freezes action for a second. I don't want anything that extreme.

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Pick ups, like power weapons or powers ups, are what should keep players moving (forward). I don’t think the direction you are traveling in should influence how your weapon/attack behaves.

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whatttttt... if you are always holding forward, you are doing it wrong. thats not even CLOSE to asking for shoulder charge, and momentum melees do reward the exact kind of play you just described... ifyou are moving or jumping you get a slight damage boost.  If  you are standing or crouching, you don't.

Rewarding jump+melee with more damage seems idiotic to me.

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Pick ups, like power weapons or powers ups, are what should keep players moving (forward). I don’t think the direction you are traveling in should influence how your weapon/attack behaves.

I agree with your first point, that should be the primary way you move around the map. But let me use a hyperbolic perfect example here. There's ten seconds left, the game is tied, one team hides while the other team is willing to push for the win. I feel the aggressive team should somehow be rewarded for being willing to try to decide the game.

 

I gave an extreme example, it rarely works out that perfectly. But I feel it can apply to smaller moments in a match. Rockets are up in a minute, sniper fell off the map when that player jumped for camo and was killed. One player hides as an opponent tries to make a play. Ahouldn't the aggressive player have some sort of advantage in close quarters compared to the camping player who is trying to catch him off guard?

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I don’t think momentum should be rewarded because I think players should pretty much be in continuous motion with their weapons dealing consistent damage. It sounds like you want shoulder charger or whatever H5 calls it. That rewards momentum and seems dumb as shit.

Holy shit this guy hasn't played Halo 1 OR Halo 2.

 

News flash dude. We already had this, and it was excellent. Educate yourself.

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I've seen your video! You make great videos, I've watched every Halo 1 video you've released. I did rewatch this one though to make sure I remembered everything.

 

This may be hypocritical, but in a game with button combos and five or six weapons, I don't really care about differing ranges. I enjoy the button combos in Halo 1, but button combos are already kind of janky even if I like the Halo 1 combos, so adding a little more of my perceived "jank" is okay at that point for me.

 

I know the speeds are different in Halo 1 as well, I wouldn't be bothered if the speed difference was pretty low I guess.

 

I'll say this about the differing ranged melees, and I feel you'll agree with me here but maybe I'll be wrong. If they do different melee ranges, they have to remove lunge, if somebody is lunging at me from further away than I can lunge at him I'm going to throw my controller.

 

If there's no lunge, and it sticks to the "bigger gun, bigger range" theme in Halo 1, I think I'd be happy to agree.

 

I'm 100% talking about a lunge-less Halo. I hate melee lunge, and you're right, the differing ranges would be really stupid with lunge.  I think it's important to remember that we're talking about a difference of less than a spartan width on these ranges. The difference between the pistol melee and the rocket melee in H1 isn't even that far.

 

And @@Theboss just to address the damage buff for jumping/falling melees, that is pretty cut and dry risk/reward, as well as skillful timing. You trade your ability to change direction if the enemy catches on, for a chance at massive damage if you predict them correctly. It was a fantastic mechanic, especially in H2, especially in Flag/Ball where the obj could OHK with a jumping melee. Landing that jumping melee with the ball was a massive outplay and it felt amazing.

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Yeah it takes a whole lot of skill to jump before meleeing.

It adds actual depth to the game.

 

You're coming off like an ignorant asshole in your posts btw. Might want to take it down a few notches.

 

Did you play Halo 2 on XBL back in the day?

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“Look at this asshole. He hasn’t even played Halo.”

 

How would you like me respond to that?

 

Fuck it. Fuck you guys. Wanted to discuss an old passion of mine but you guys are fucking fags. Enjoy your forum with the twelve other people who post here. Eat my ass.

r/bestof

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r/bestof

Remember how in Halo 2 you actually had to be somewhat witty with your insults? Now these geeks just post some reddit. Well done. I fucked your mom.

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I disagree with this. Maybe I just like "simple" games too much but I've always hated games where I have to remember several different mechanics for something that feels similar enough. I'm happy to have "momentum" melees, all I need to know is the more momentum I have the more damage I do so sitting around a corner waiting for an enemy will mean he'll do more damage as he charges in the door. But something like "rockets > pistol > needler > plasma pistol but they all have better range of melee than the sniper" is a lot of stuff I need to learn that I don't really enjoy.

 

Also it's more things for new players to learn. I feel it would be frustrating for someone to be confused because half the time his melees don't connect because they all have slightly shorter ranges than the default weapon, or don't do quite as much damage. Or the flip side, only one or two weapons are different which is still frustrating because you practice one melee range/damage value repeatedly, then it's suddenly different for one gun in the entire game.

 

I don't know, I'm all for making the game harder than what it is now. But making it a giant knowledge dump doesn't feel right to me either.

I can’t disagree with this more. New players wouldn’t have to learn the nuances of each guns melee in order to engage with them. Melee would still be simple on the surface: you just press B. I played CE for years casually w/o ever realizing the amount of nuance in the melee system. It didn’t stop me from having fun.

 

Anyone who’s ever played any game with a focus on melee combat can easily accept that different weapons have different attack speeds, ranges and damage properties. The key in an FPS would be having feedback systems that make these properties feel logical and intuitive (ie heavy weapon is slower, does more damage. Longer weapon has more range. Smaller weapon is faster, etc). This boils down to having good UI, animations and sound design.

 

This really isn’t a matter of making the game more complex for new players- it’s a matter of making it deeper, so that it’s more rewarding for long term investment.

 

Edit: I’m late as fuck

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Remember how in Halo 2 you actually had to be somewhat witty with your insults? Now these geeks just post some reddit. Well done. I fucked your mom.

Lmao, you definitely didn't play Halo 2 because this looks like something a 12 year old wrote.

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I can’t disagree with this more. New players wouldn’t have to learn the nuances of each guns melee in order to engage with them. Melee would still be simple on the surface: you just press B. I played CE for years casually w/o ever realizing the amount of nuance in the melee system. It didn’t stop me from having fun.

 

Anyone who’s ever played any game with a focus on melee combat can easily accept that different weapons have different attack speeds, ranges and damage properties. The key in an FPS would be having feedback systems that make these properties feel logical and intuitive (ie heavy weapon is slower, does more damage. Longer weapon has more range. Smaller weapon is faster, etc). This boils down to having good UI, animations and sound design.

 

This really isn’t a matter of making the game more complex for new players- it’s a matter of making it deeper, so that it’s more rewarding for long term investment.

 

Edit: I’m late as fuck

Based on everybody telling me that casual players won't mind, I feel I may be in the minority. If there's something in a game like different melee damage values, I immediately notice and if I can't figure it right away it almost always immediately tilts me. But everybody else seems to disagree so I may be alone in this thought and it may be something other people simply don't care about, which is fine.

 

I like what you and @@ARUKET have said about proper feedback systems though. I mentioned before that I'm more okay with it if it follows a logical progression in terms of weapon size, or somebody mentioned power weapons being the ones with extra damage and I feel that could make sense to me as well. I can definitely agree with that, and with the additions of solid animations that look like you would hit further, I can definitely come around to agreeing with the rest of you. I definitely wouldn't want the animation to be hitting with the side of your weapon for everything though, which is what I initially imagined, but the rest of you seem to be thinking of Halo 1 rockets melee as an example of a good animation and I would agree with that.

 

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I'll make one last argument about when I like simple mechanics, and that's when it fits with the design of the game being simple. So for Halo 5 I wouldn't mind the different melee values as much because the game has a ton of stuff you need to know to be semi-capable at the game. There's like nine different types of jumps you can do, there's a ton of weapons plus variations, also some weapons do almost the same thing but have different aim assist values. There's some ways to traverse the map by clambering on what looks like vertical walls, or thrusting on slight slants. There's a bunch of nerdy stuff in the game, so adding a complex melee system I feel wouldn't be a big deal.

 

However, if it was Reach V7 I feel like a complex melee system would be a stark contrast to the rest of the game. I don't necessarily mean this from just a competitive player standpoint, but just from an overall gameplay perspective. When I can teach the basics of Reach very quickly (pretty easy maps, weapons on a static timer, no weird movement options, one weapon for each roll on a map), I don't want a strangely complex melee system added on to add depth I would rather look for other ways to add skill first like less aim assist.

 

Halo 1 is in this weird in between zone for me. It's really simple to quickly teach to somebody, but to use the mechanics well it's really hard. Like it has the easiest spawn system to explain (spawn close to teammate unless you're nowhere near a spawn point) but it's also one of the hardest to use well. Weapons on the ground being effected by explosives is easy to explain, but hard to actually plan for your benefit. I think that is why I enjoy the game so much because I think it nails simplicity plus difficulty really well.

 

I know this thread is technically about Halo 5, but I thought I'd put out this argument about the mechanics matching the overall simplicity of the game. This one may just be me because I play Halo with a lot of different groups so bouncing between different styles of Halo in regards to simplicity is important to me, but I'd love to hear everybody else's thoughts, maybe you guys think it's worth adding it to simple games as well.

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Based on everybody telling me that casual players won't mind, I feel I may be in the minority. If there's something in a game like different melee damage values, I immediately notice and if I can't figure it right away it almost always immediately tilts me. But everybody else seems to disagree so I may be alone in this thought and it may be something other people simply don't care about, which is fine.

 

I like what you and @@ARUKET have said about proper feedback systems though. I mentioned before that I'm more okay with it if it follows a logical progression in terms of weapon size, or somebody mentioned power weapons being the ones with extra damage and I feel that could make sense to me as well. I can definitely agree with that, and with the additions of solid animations that look like you would hit further, I can definitely come around to agreeing with the rest of you. I definitely wouldn't want the animation to be hitting with the side of your weapon for everything though, which is what I initially imagined, but the rest of you seem to be thinking of Halo 1 rockets melee as an example of a good animation and I would agree with that.

 

--------------

 

I'll make one last argument about when I like simple mechanics, and that's when it fits with the design of the game being simple. So for Halo 5 I wouldn't mind the different melee values as much because the game has a ton of stuff you need to know to be semi-capable at the game. There's like nine different types of jumps you can do, there's a ton of weapons plus variations, also some weapons do almost the same thing but have different aim assist values. There's some ways to traverse the map by clambering on what looks like vertical walls, or thrusting on slight slants. There's a bunch of nerdy stuff in the game, so adding a complex melee system I feel wouldn't be a big deal.

 

However, if it was Reach V7 I feel like a complex melee system would be a stark contrast to the rest of the game. I don't necessarily mean this from just a competitive player standpoint, but just from an overall gameplay perspective. When I can teach the basics of Reach very quickly (pretty easy maps, weapons on a static timer, no weird movement options, one weapon for each roll on a map), I don't want a strangely complex melee system added on to add depth I would rather look for other ways to add skill first like less aim assist.

 

Halo 1 is in this weird in between zone for me. It's really simple to quickly teach to somebody, but to use the mechanics well it's really hard. Like it has the easiest spawn system to explain (spawn close to teammate unless you're nowhere near a spawn point) but it's also one of the hardest to use well. Weapons on the ground being effected by explosives is easy to explain, but hard to actually plan for your benefit. I think that is why I enjoy the game so much because I think it nails simplicity plus difficulty really well.

 

I know this thread is technically about Halo 5, but I thought I'd put out this argument about the mechanics matching the overall simplicity of the game. This one may just be me because I play Halo with a lot of different groups so bouncing between different styles of Halo in regards to simplicity is important to me, but I'd love to hear everybody else's thoughts, maybe you guys think it's worth adding it to simple games as well.

it's quite possible for a system to be simple yet deep. that should be the design goal for any competitive game. Depth shouldn't be confused with complexity.

 

halo 5's movement system adds complexity because you have to learn button combos just to make basic map movements. that means you'd need significant familiarity and dexterity just you move from point A to B.

 

giving guns different melee properties, if done correctly, would be an example of adding depth without complexity. a player wouldn't need to be cognizant of melee nuance in order to perform melees. the way melee is presented would quickly give them all the information they need such that it feels intuitive.

 

players already make these sorts of intuitive developments when playing shooters. just from looking at a reticle, we infer the weapons best use cases. audio ques and cadences tell us a bit about how weapons deal damage and what kind of spacing we need. and animations provide informative visual feedback. when done right, you don't need to study engage with the basics. you just play, and you'll naturally understand. that's what makes things feel simple

 

it really wouldn't take more than a few matches for players to understand what different melee properties mean for their gameplay at a basic level. meanwhile higher level players would be thinking deeper about how to best use theses difference to their advantage.

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Remember how in Halo 2 you actually had to be somewhat witty with your insults? Now these geeks just post some reddit. Well done. I fucked your mom.

 

no u

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Halo 1 is in this weird in between zone for me. It's really simple to quickly teach to somebody, but to use the mechanics well it's really hard. Like it has the easiest spawn system to explain (spawn close to teammate unless you're nowhere near a spawn point) but it's also one of the hardest to use well. Weapons on the ground being effected by explosives is easy to explain, but hard to actually plan for your benefit. I think that is why I enjoy the game so much because I think it nails simplicity plus difficulty really well.

 

I think this is exactly what we want though: A game that is easy to get into, but hard to master. What we've had since Reach is games that are hard to get into (H5 being the worst offender, but H4 with it's convoluted perks and AA is a close second) but not really hard to master when compared to the first three games. And don't get me wrong, CE and H2 are nowhere near perfect in this regard. Stuff like tutorials for button combos, showing weapon respawn timers, map overhead views, visual cues like shield flares and visible overshields etc. go a long way in making the game easier to get into.

 

 

I know this thread is technically about Halo 5, but I thought I'd put out this argument about the mechanics matching the overall simplicity of the game. This one may just be me because I play Halo with a lot of different groups so bouncing between different styles of Halo in regards to simplicity is important to me, but I'd love to hear everybody else's thoughts, maybe you guys think it's worth adding it to simple games as well.

 

Don't worry this thread is rarely about H5 lol. The game is so boring and dead that there's rarely any discussion to be had outside of the monthly updates by Josh Menke and occasional HCS stuff. And I'm with you on the simplicity side. Games like Overwatch and most modern military shooters with tons of fluff and gadgets piss me off to no end. I miss the days of CE-H3 so much.

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The only reason i am ok with a small lunge, more like H3 than H2 or H5, is because its good feedback that your melee landed. Sometimes with the player model that close and possible fire damage being taken at the same time, it can be hard to spot the shield flare. If there is another way to indicate a melee landed very clearly without a lunge, that would probably be preferable. The way i see it is that thrust is not going anywhere either, so if someone wants to get in range quickly, they can just use that. The downtime between thrust and melee should probably be a little shorter, as should the thrust itself.

 

I see a game like Overwatch do melee's with 0 lunge and people don't bitch about it, so i think players can deal but at the same time, the feedback in that game for whether or not one landed is not good.

lol i can’t even tell when my melees register in that game, but only because melee damage isn’t high. But in regards to halo 3, halo 3s melee lunges weren’t bad tbh. Sure sometimes you’d get the GOD lunge but it was rather rare, and in h3 you had to at least be looking at the bastard. That’s my main problem with the lunge system, it’s not the large lunge it’s the fact a his reticule isn’t on me. That should be a rule that reticule must be red to get a lunge.

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I don't mind a lunge. i still want different lunges based on weapon though. In halo 3 it as always exciting when you would melee someone at a higher elevation and you'd pull yourself onto that platform you normally couldn't reach. but if it was removed i wouldn't care at all

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Good idea or bad idea:

 

A precision weapon who’s max RoF can only be achieved by pacing shots. Spamming punishes RoF instead of accuracy. Thoughts?

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I don't get why people like the idea of "pacing shots".

 

I should be able to fire a weapon at it's max RoF.  If that RoF is too fast and results in spam then the obvious solution is to simply slow down the max RoF to something more reasonable.  Not to give me the option to do something then punish me for taking that option.

 

Bloom kind of makes sense when you want to limit a weapon from killing too fast at long range but still retain that killtime in close range.  Having my RoF decrease the faster I fire the weapon though serves no point and is completely awkward.

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Yeah it takes a whole lot of skill to jump before meleeing.

 

Yeah try getting 1 hit jumping melee kills with the flag or bomb in H2 on anyone who isn't stupid.

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Good idea or bad idea:

 

A precision weapon who’s max RoF can only be achieved by pacing shots. Spamming punishes RoF instead of accuracy. Thoughts?

 

It's just bloom but instead of missing shots you just don't shoot at all because you weren't pacing your shots.

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I really think button combos are how you fix melee in Halo. Lunges work the way they do because of online gameplay. Being able to actually out skill someone point blank is what we need and the only way you really get that is doing something other than simply pressing melee. Something a lot of people don't touch on with how BxR etc worked is it actually influenced you to step back and keep shooting rather than getting into a melee fight to begin with if you had the advantage. You could make a zero aim assist/lunge melee and still be screaming a decade from now after they don't connect on connections that aren't stellar. I honestly think bungie's solution of just having melee not really do a lot of damage most of the time is better than that. They ended up patching it out when they fixed everything about H2 though and we found out about the rest of the combos

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