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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Between the "thwack" sound, the hit marker, and the shield flare, that oughtta be enough. Get the lunge the fuck out of Halo.

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Between the "thwack" sound, the hit marker, and the shield flare, that oughtta be enough. Get the lunge the fuck out of Halo.

 

I guess thats kind of what i mean. In some games.... all of that is pretty muddled.  The melee connecting doesn't sound that much different from just meleeing the air. Hit markers get lost in the shield flare and the shield flare has no "point of origin" and hangs so it could be from the last shot you fired or something else.    If all that stuff is cleaned up, then its not a problem.

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We really need to have different weapons with different melee properties again. Just adding stuff like rockets doing more damage than the pistol but taking longer to connect for example or the sniper having extended melee range because you know the barrel is like 3 feet long and in exchange having a smaller hitbox. Would add way more depth and potential for interesting exchanges than shit like zooming in with Sword/Hammer extending their range.

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We really need to have different weapons with different melee properties again. Just adding stuff like rockets doing more damage than the pistol but taking longer to connect for example or the sniper having extended melee range because you know the barrel is like 3 feet long and in exchange having a smaller hitbox. Would add way more depth and potential for interesting exchanges than shit like zooming in with Sword/Hammer extending their range.

 

They should have a  "wiki" area in the UI too where you can lookup weapon stats.  "melee range" could be a category.

 

Thinking about melee lunges i still don't hate the "lunge" idea.  But the ideal setup would be something more like when you see a boxer push off their back foot to throw a punch.  Lunge is probably the wrong word, more of a "Plant and punch".  Might be hard to make that come through in first person though? idk, but they need a solution that isn't just an auto-magically propelled forward 3 meters.

 

Edit:  I want to make this an argument for getting on UE4 too.  I know one of the things that devs seem to praise it for in interviews is the ability to prototype and iterate very quickly to try things with a quick turnaround.  Dollars to donuts it takes much longer to accomplish that with H5's engine.

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We really need to have different weapons with different melee properties again. Just adding stuff like rockets doing more damage than the pistol but taking longer to connect for example or the sniper having extended melee range because you know the barrel is like 3 feet long and in exchange having a smaller hitbox. Would add way more depth and potential for interesting exchanges than shit like zooming in with Sword/Hammer extending their range.

I disagree with this. Maybe I just like "simple" games too much but I've always hated games where I have to remember several different mechanics for something that feels similar enough. I'm happy to have "momentum" melees, all I need to know is the more momentum I have the more damage I do so sitting around a corner waiting for an enemy will mean he'll do more damage as he charges in the door. But something like "rockets > pistol > needler > plasma pistol but they all have better range of melee than the sniper" is a lot of stuff I need to learn that I don't really enjoy.

 

Also it's more things for new players to learn. I feel it would be frustrating for someone to be confused because half the time his melees don't connect because they all have slightly shorter ranges than the default weapon, or don't do quite as much damage. Or the flip side, only one or two weapons are different which is still frustrating because you practice one melee range/damage value repeatedly, then it's suddenly different for one gun in the entire game.

 

I don't know, I'm all for making the game harder than what it is now. But making it a giant knowledge dump doesn't feel right to me either.

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If a game is going to have specific melee weapons like sword or hammer, with their own unique properties like lunge or push, then all regular weapons should share the same melee characteristics. If the game doesn’t have any melee weapons then by all means make each weapon have unique melee characteristics.

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I disagree with this. Maybe I just like "simple" games too much but I've always hated games where I have to remember several different mechanics for something that feels similar enough. I'm happy to have "momentum" melees, all I need to know is the more momentum I have the more damage I do so sitting around a corner waiting for an enemy will mean he'll do more damage as he charges in the door. But something like "rockets > pistol > needler > plasma pistol but they all have better range of melee than the sniper" is a lot of stuff I need to learn that I don't really enjoy.

 

Also it's more things for new players to learn. I feel it would be frustrating for someone to be confused because half the time his melees don't connect because they all have slightly shorter ranges than the default weapon, or don't do quite as much damage. Or the flip side, only one or two weapons are different which is still frustrating because you practice one melee range/damage value repeatedly, then it's suddenly different for one gun in the entire game.

 

I don't know, I'm all for making the game harder than what it is now. But making it a giant knowledge dump doesn't feel right to me either.

It's not hard dude.

 

Pistols > Short range

Rifles > Medium range

Power Weapons > Long range

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I disagree with this. Maybe I just like "simple" games too much but I've always hated games where I have to remember several different mechanics for something that feels similar enough. I'm happy to have "momentum" melees, all I need to know is the more momentum I have the more damage I do so sitting around a corner waiting for an enemy will mean he'll do more damage as he charges in the door. But something like "rockets > pistol > needler > plasma pistol but they all have better range of melee than the sniper" is a lot of stuff I need to learn that I don't really enjoy.

 

Also it's more things for new players to learn. I feel it would be frustrating for someone to be confused because half the time his melees don't connect because they all have slightly shorter ranges than the default weapon, or don't do quite as much damage. Or the flip side, only one or two weapons are different which is still frustrating because you practice one melee range/damage value repeatedly, then it's suddenly different for one gun in the entire game.

 

I don't know, I'm all for making the game harder than what it is now. But making it a giant knowledge dump doesn't feel right to me either.

 

The key to all this is execution subtlety. Lets say all weapons are 2 hit melee kills, but some will barely take off shields in one hit, while others will do shields + a good chunk of health.  Most of the time, at most levels of play, its not going to make a difference.  It doesn't really raise the skill floor because at the lower levels of play, they all act similarly but at higher levels of play you might  switch to a weapon to get longer range on an assassination or be more likely to kill a guy that took damage but you're not sure how much, etc.  And it wouldn't need to be that every single weapon does different amounts of melee damage.  It could be separated into Big, Medium and Small or Tier 1, 2 and 3, or only Rockets do extra damage, sniper has more range and AR and pistol is faster or whatever.

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If a game is going to have specific melee weapons like sword or hammer, with their own unique properties like lunge or push, then all regular weapons should share the same melee characteristics. If the game doesn’t have any melee weapons then by all means make each weapon have unique melee characteristics.

 

But.... why?? This seems like a really really arbitrary rule to setup.  Melee weapons (should) have a "Fire mode" and "melee mode" just like every other weapon.  When  you pull the trigger its different then when you hit melee, just like every other weapon.

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It's not hard dude.

 

Pistols > Short range

Rifles > Medium range

Power Weapons > Long range

I'm dumb and read it as sniper has short range melee when Basu said small hitbox. Instead he meant it as long range but small hitbox as in you have to aim well to hit the melee.

 

That's not so bad then, you're right. I'm still not sure I would like it, but I'd be down to see how it plays. Damage I could be more convinced, heavier looking weapon does more damage, easy. Range I think would still feel janky and I'm not sure I would like it, but with three tiers it wouldn't be as bad as I suggested. Speed of melee I don't care too much about.

 

I'd definitely be happy with reticule has to be on someone for the melee to hit. So meleeing with snipe would be harder than with a shotgun for example.

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The key to all this is execution subtlety. Lets say all weapons are 2 hit melee kills, but some will barely take off shields in one hit, while others will do shields + a good chunk of health. Most of the time, at most levels of play, its not going to make a difference. It doesn't really raise the skill floor because at the lower levels of play, they all act similarly but at higher levels of play you might switch to a weapon to get longer range on an assassination or be more likely to kill a guy that took damage but you're not sure how much, etc. And it wouldn't need to be that every single weapon does different amounts of melee damage. It could be separated into Big, Medium and Small or Tier 1, 2 and 3, or only Rockets do extra damage, sniper has more range and AR and pistol is faster or whatever.

Yeah I interpreted Basu wrong. I don't mind the tier idea for damage. Speed I'm a little iffy on but maybe I'd be okay with it.

 

Range is the one I'm struggling with. I feel it would be too frustrating for a player with less experience who doesn't know much about the game to have his melees not connect sometimes. Even if it's a small change and only applies to one gun, or one category of gun, for a newer player I think it would be annoying.

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But.... why?? This seems like a really really arbitrary rule to setup.  Melee weapons (should) have a "Fire mode" and "melee mode" just like every other weapon.  When  you pull the trigger its different then when you hit melee, just like every other weapon.

If you really want unique melee properties, you should be pushing for things like a Plasma Launcher melee sticking an enemy with a plasma nade or something like that.

 

Range, damage, and speed seem like they should be consistent across all weapons. For accessibility’s sake.

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If you really want unique melee properties, you should be pushing for things like a Plasma Launcher melee sticking an enemy with a plasma nade or something like that.

 

Range, damage, and speed seem like they should be consistent across all weapons. For accessibility’s sake.

 

As long as mashing the melee button twice will get you a kill, there is no "accessibility" argument to be made. Accessibility is compromised if at the most basic level, something is unnecessarily difficult.  eg. navigating Halo 5's maps to take the most basic routes in the game require you to use to clamber, thrust and stabilize at a minimum, often in conjunction with one another.  Thats a high barrier of entry for basic map movement.  That doesn't apply to adding some depth to melee's as long as at its core with any weapon as long as you mash the melee button twice, you kill someone.  The barrier of entry is the same as always, Can your thumb/finger click this single button? Yes.  If you tweak characteristics that make sense just from looking at the weapon, from that point it gives better players more tools to be just a tiny bit better than their opponent, but its not confusing or create any accessibility issues. Rockets are heavy, they do more damage.  Sniper is huge, its range is longer. pistol is small, it melees faster. Brute shot has a giant blade on the back, it does more damage.  

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I'm dumb and read it as sniper has short range melee when Basu said small hitbox. Instead he meant it as long range but small hitbox as in you have to aim well to hit the melee.

 

That's not so bad then, you're right. I'm still not sure I would like it, but I'd be down to see how it plays. Damage I could be more convinced, heavier looking weapon does more damage, easy. Range I think would still feel janky and I'm not sure I would like it, but with three tiers it wouldn't be as bad as I suggested. Speed of melee I don't care too much about.

 

I'd definitely be happy with reticule has to be on someone for the melee to hit. So meleeing with snipe would be harder than with a shotgun for example.

 

You raise a fair point with the accessibility argument. If there's one thing I hate it's a game with an artifically high skill floor that doesn't really add to the skill gap or add depth to the game (H5's movement is a great example of this).

 

As Apollo said, this doesn't have to be super complex though. A tier system is exactly what I had in mind. Rockets and similarly heavy weapons do more damage, but are slower. Small weapons are the opposite. Long weapons have a tad more range etc. Nothing crazy, but enough to make melee battles more interesting. Couple that with melee momentum (stand, run, jump) and we could have something cool.

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I guess thats kind of what i mean. In some games.... all of that is pretty muddled.  The melee connecting doesn't sound that much different from just meleeing the air. Hit markers get lost in the shield flare and the shield flare has no "point of origin" and hangs so it could be from the last shot you fired or something else.    If all that stuff is cleaned up, then its not a problem.

 

This made me think how cool it would look if shield flare did have a point of origin. A ripple effect would look baller.

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I'm dumb and read it as sniper has short range melee when Basu said small hitbox. Instead he meant it as long range but small hitbox as in you have to aim well to hit the melee.

 

That's not so bad then, you're right. I'm still not sure I would like it, but I'd be down to see how it plays. Damage I could be more convinced, heavier looking weapon does more damage, easy. Range I think would still feel janky and I'm not sure I would like it, but with three tiers it wouldn't be as bad as I suggested. Speed of melee I don't care too much about.

 

I'd definitely be happy with reticule has to be on someone for the melee to hit. So meleeing with snipe would be harder than with a shotgun for example.

 

H1 did it. Here, I made a video about it :)

 

https://youtu.be/hzItnzPb-mk?t=2m17s

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Giving the sniper an extended range melee just because it has a large weapon model is pretty dumb. It is (technically) a long range weapon. Don’t give it CQC buffs. It should have areas it is weak(er) in.

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Weapons should have the same melee range. That honestly is how I feel. We already have dedicated melee weapons that need clear uses and functions that stand out.

 

I would just like if lunges worked... ANY other way than they do now. It's instant. If we can take away the 'instant' nature and end up with something like the A.I. in Campaign where they clearly windup and launch their melee while exposing their back, we'd be golden. Obviously for Spartans it would be much faster, but still it would be better than literal teleporting.

 

In fact, we could make it to where melee always moves the player forward so when used in the air we get a nice change of direction without needing thrust.

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Giving the sniper an extended range melee just because it has a large weapon model is pretty dumb. It is (technically) a long range weapon. Don’t give it CQC buffs. It should have areas it is weak(er) in.

Offset it with longer times til damage output (more "wind-up" frames).  This conversation is killing me because the franchise literally already did this in Halo 1. The damage per weapon was the same but the range and wind up frames have already varied. And Halo 2 had different damage models for the Brute Shot, and Rockets were a OHK with a jumping melee pre-patch.

 

To anyone doubting this, just play Halo 1. It worked SO well. And what Apollo is saying about subtle tweaks to damage is spot on. Knowing when your combination of momentum and damage already delivered can yield a OHK with which weapons is something that would likely only effect higher level play. That's fun depth imo. That's rewarding presence of mind. That's what leads to interesting choices when picking up weapons so we might actually have a reason to drop the utility weapon sometimes (something we coincidentally haven't had since H1).

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Giving the sniper an extended range melee just because it has a large weapon model is pretty dumb. It is (technically) a long range weapon. Don’t give it CQC buffs. It should have areas it is weak(er) in.

If melees are hard to execute like they are in Halo 1 and sniping at close range is difficult to do like it is in Halo 1 then I don't really see an issue. It would also help if the game had an adequate utility weapon similar to Halo 1's pistol that empowers players to be able to contest the sniper at long, medium, and close range.

 

Here's a post that @@MultiLockOn made on the topic of melee mechanics in Halo.

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I don’t think momentum should be rewarded because I think players should pretty much be in continuous motion with their weapons dealing consistent damage. It sounds like you want shoulder charger or whatever H5 calls it. That rewards momentum and seems dumb as shit.

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H1 did it. Here, I made a video about it :)

 

https://youtu.be/hzItnzPb-mk?t=2m17s

I've seen your video! You make great videos, I've watched every Halo 1 video you've released. I did rewatch this one though to make sure I remembered everything.

 

This may be hypocritical, but in a game with button combos and five or six weapons, I don't really care about differing ranges. I enjoy the button combos in Halo 1, but button combos are already kind of janky even if I like the Halo 1 combos, so adding a little more of my perceived "jank" is okay at that point for me.

 

I know the speeds are different in Halo 1 as well, I wouldn't be bothered if the speed difference was pretty low I guess.

 

I'll say this about the differing ranged melees, and I feel you'll agree with me here but maybe I'll be wrong. If they do different melee ranges, they have to remove lunge, if somebody is lunging at me from further away than I can lunge at him I'm going to throw my controller.

 

If there's no lunge, and it sticks to the "bigger gun, bigger range" theme in Halo 1, I think I'd be happy to agree.

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I don’t think momentum should be rewarded because I think players should pretty much be in continuous motion with their weapons dealing consistent damage. It sounds like you want shoulder charger or whatever H5 calls it. That rewards momentum and seems dumb as shit.

 

whatttttt... if you are always holding forward, you are doing it wrong. thats not even CLOSE to asking for shoulder charge, and momentum melees do reward the exact kind of play you just described... ifyou are moving or jumping you get a slight damage boost.  If  you are standing or crouching, you don't.

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