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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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That's because the rest of matchmaking was a mess and didn't compliment it, and it had things like Coliseum Strongholds and other random fluff.

Yeah it was the 3rd playlist overlapping with HCS and TA but had worse gametypes than both.

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How is the match making playlist selection still so awful?

 

I last posted in this thread October last year and still it's ridiculous. There's like 30+ different play lists or something when you include Warzone, Ranked and Social.

 

If 343 is gonna keep being delusional and think this sort of selection is ok with the low population they could at least let us queue for multiple playlists to make searching faster.

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Same but I would change the name of HCS to team arena. The HCS name alone will turn off more casual players, but Team Arena name won't turn off competitive players. I would also stock the playlist with the current slate of competition gametypes, a bunch of "competition ready" ones and 2 or 3 experimental potential future gametypes. It doesn't need to only contain what is currently on the circuit.

 

Then they could restore the Social Skirmish list.

 

They did the experimental gametypes with Oddball/Assault and the community/pro players went nuts about it and complained about having to play maps and modes that weren't in the competitive play pool. Granted, those gametypes were a mess, but the experimental idea was still there. I think the key to that (which I agree, is a great idea) is implementing modes that are being tested for competitive play, but have them vetted beforehand to the point that they're quality modes.

 

I would love to see Team Arena be THE ranked mode for Halo. I know that will probably catch some backlash as Halo has always had a variety of modes to offer in ranked play, and the community has a variety of players that only play a certain mode. The model now looks to be moving to a unified ranked experience. It would be so cool to me to be able to communicate with other ranked players about their rank.

 

I've ran into a couple people here in my small area that saw me wearing a Halo shirt and told me they play. After talking I find out that they're Platinum players. Okay, that's awesome. Then the conversation goes further only to find out that they're talking about their rank in Slayer with vastly different settings, playstyles, and meta.

 

Having one ranked playlist that is the end all be all would be a cool pipe dream.

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They did the experimental gametypes with Oddball/Assault and the community/pro players went nuts about it and complained about having to play maps and modes that weren't in the competitive play pool. Granted, those gametypes were a mess, but the experimental idea was still there. I think the key to that (which I agree, is a great idea) is implementing modes that are being tested for competitive play, but have them vetted beforehand to the point that they're quality modes.

 

I would love to see Team Arena be THE ranked mode for Halo. I know that will probably catch some backlash as Halo has always had a variety of modes to offer in ranked play, and the community has a variety of players that only play a certain mode. The model now looks to be moving to a unified ranked experience. It would be so cool to me to be able to communicate with other ranked players about their rank.

 

I've ran into a couple people here in my small area that saw me wearing a Halo shirt and told me they play. After talking I find out that they're Platinum players. Okay, that's awesome. Then the conversation goes further only to find out that they're talking about their rank in Slayer with vastly different settings, playstyles, and meta.

 

Having one ranked playlist that is the end all be all would be a cool pipe dream.

Yeah the problem with the experimental playlist before was the the entire playlist was the "preview" playlist with the edited gametypes being ridiculous.  Like Dual binaries on Coli???? They wanted a dual sniper map, but know that 2 H5 snipers would be a shitshow, so they used binary rifles instead... like wtf man.  the solution to dual snipers being a shitshow is to introduce some level of difficulty to the sniper.  Fix THE ACTUAL problem, don't just replace it with something ridiculous.  

 

But then i think about a gametype like Stasis Flag.  Not a terrible gametype at first, but with the geometry giving a "blue side wins" advantage, it was bad for competitive play.  If it had been sitting in the Team Arena playlist as an alternate for next season, it would have given more time for people to think about it and realize it wouldn't work. As well as more time for the data to aggregate and show "well damn, diamond and above blue side wins 70% of the time".

 

I think that Halo is accommodating enough to different party sizes that a few ranked playlists is fine.  Ideally i would like to see 3. Team Arena, Doubles and FFA.  A proper FFA mind you.  8 players, no power-ups/power weapons.  However, the pragmatist in me realizes that Slayer is so fucking popular and so many people would throw a tantrum if it was removed from ranked it should stay too.   Still though, thats only 4 playlists.

 

If i could, i would take it a step further and make Team Arena either clearly the "premier" playlists via the UI giving it precedence, or something like TA being the only playlist that awards Champion to the top 200.  Some way to indicate "This is the ranked playlist that really matters".

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I'm sorry, but I just can't take anyone seriously if they don't think ranked SWAT is an essential part of the Halo experience.
 

:lxthul:

 

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TS should be social with strict matchmaking. It’s a joke that it’s been a featured ranked playlist for this long. It’s annoying that the TS rank gets tossed around in conversation as a means to define a player’s skill, but it’s only 1/3rd of the relevant gametypes. That goes double for SWAT and Snipers.

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Now, I feel like there should be 3 ranked modes. Team Arena, Team Doubles, FFA.

 

Everything else should just looser matchmaking with Ladder progression - that should satiate those who like to watch bars fill up.

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Social should be actual social. Not just loose ranked lmao I hate games that do back end hidden mmr shit like H5, an actual social experience will always be so much better. One day on Elderito reminded me of that.

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TS should be social with strict matchmaking. It’s a joke that it’s been a featured ranked playlist for this long. It’s annoying that the TS rank gets tossed around in conversation as a means to define a player’s skill, but it’s only 1/3rd of the relevant gametypes. That goes double for SWAT and Snipers.

 

 

Now, I feel like there should be 3 ranked modes. Team Arena, Team Doubles, FFA.

 

Everything else should just looser matchmaking with Ladder progression - that should satiate those who like to watch bars fill up.

I have had the idea for a while that there would basically be 3 options when choosing Arena matchmaking, Ranked, Core and Social.

 

Ranked - This is Team Arena.  There is only ever one playlist. Strictest matchmaking. Bronze - Champion. Contains the current competitive gametypes + competitive-quality and 2 to 3 "test" gametypes (still pre-vetted) as discussed before.  Special cosmetic rewards given out for playing a certain number of games in this list per-season.  Say something like Common for 10 games, Rare for 25, Legendary for 100

Core - These are the "Ranked wannabees" basically. Slightly looser MM than Ranked. Bronze - Onyx, but it stops at just "Onyx".  No CSR number attached.  No Champion rank. Only "Common" cosmetics for playing.  Since this would be an "in between" list, it won't be so insulting to have things like SWAT in there if their was enough demand, but i would still cap this section at 3-5 lists.

Social - Looser MM.  any other playlist goes here.

 

Every list has some sort of Halo 3/Reach style progression system attached to it.  The current SR rank system is terrible.  I am not opposed to having individual playlist progressions AND a "total account" progression, but it needs to be something symbolic.  Not just a fucking circle with a number.

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Doubles and FFA should be treated with equal importance to 4v4 imo. Tournaments should run all three, and devs should design maps for all 3. We've been playing doubles on 4v4 maps for most of Halo; certainly all of H4 and 5.

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Social should be actual social. Not just loose ranked lmao I hate games that do back end hidden mmr shit like H5, an actual social experience will always be so much better. One day on Elderito reminded me of that.

Having no skill tracking at all would be horrific. No halo game has ever done that, because it would be a horrible experience. Especially for causal players.

 

The whole point of MM, is to create good matchups. If there’s a playlist that doesn’t have this aim, then it doesn’t need to be in MM. A good browser would suffice for people who aren’t worried about that.

 

For matchmaking, That open policy works in a game like COD or titanfall, where even the shittiest players can contribute something. But in a game where you’re useless if your damage output can’t keep up.... it can’t work.

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Having no skill tracking at all would be horrific. No halo game has ever done that, because it would be a horrible experience. Especially for causal players.

 

The whole point of MM, is to create good matchups. If there’s a playlist that doesn’t have this aim, then it doesn’t need to be in MM. A good browser would suffice for people who aren’t worried about that.

 

For matchmaking, That open policy works in a game like COD or titanfall, where even the shittiest players can contribute something. But in a game where you’re useless if your damage output can’t keep up.... it can’t work.

Well first of all, that's not entirely true.  Halo 2 had no social background MMR's, and for as much as people love to claim that H3 did that never stopped Staff Captains from pairing with 50's.  If it was in the back end of Halo 3 MM, it didn't do anything.

 

I've played enough games without any sort of skill based matching, including Halo's, and enough games that force ranking at all times to realize which one I prefer. In fact most of the time this conversation comes up it's because people get sweaty ass matches in Social Slayer and want to know why.  Rarely have I heard the complaint about large skill discrepancy in social for ANY game because 1: it's expected, and 2: for every player that's better than you, there is another player worse than you. That's the nature of social. No one plays social for close matches, so it's not a surprise that having a vastly better player than yourself in a social lobby is hardly a complaint that comes up.  That's probably a far less intrusive experience than playing 7 other players equally as skilled as you.

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Well first of all, that's not entirely true. Halo 2 had no social background MMR's, and for as much as people love to claim that H3 did that never stopped Staff Captains from pairing with 50's. If it was in the back end of Halo 3 MM, it didn't do anything.

 

I've played enough games without any sort of skill based matching, including Halo's, and enough games that force ranking at all times to realize which one I prefer. In fact most of the time this conversation comes up it's because people get sweaty ass matches in Social Slayer and want to know why. Rarely have I heard the complaint about large skill discrepancy in social for ANY game because 1: it's expected, and 2: for every player that's better than you, there is another player worse than you. That's the nature of social. No one plays social for close matches, so it's not a surprise that having a vastly better player than yourself in a social lobby is hardly a complaint that comes up. That's probably a far less intrusive experience than playing 7 other players equally as skilled as you.

You can prefer what you prefer, so long as there is a custom browser.

 

People play social for a variety of reasons. Whether it be to warm up w/o hurting their MMR. Or to get into games with friends of a different skill level or anything in between. But no one plays anything to get blown out and everyone want to feel like they can contribute.

 

The fact that there’s a good player for every bad player, means NOTHING, if there are 4 good players on one team, and 4 bad ones on the other. No matchmaking system should allow that to happen. Getting shit on by much better players isn’t fun, even if you are aware it’s a possibility ahead of time. This is an argument good players use, without considering the other end of the spectrum.

 

Yes, “having 7 other players equally skilled” could be annoying In social. That’s why you have loose Skill matching- thus allowing large skill discrepancy in the lobby, but still having fairly even teams.

 

Even back in H2, Bungie directed players to custom games if they didn’t want to deal with ELO - training ground if you didn’t have the friends To fill a custom lobby. This is why I say a good browser should suffice for a person with your opinion on the matter.

 

To say H3s backend didn’t do ANYTHING is silly. It maked oppressive games less likely, and tried to make balance teams, even when there are skill discrepancies.

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Well first of all, that's not entirely true.  Halo 2 had no social background MMR's, and for as much as people love to claim that H3 did that never stopped Staff Captains from pairing with 50's.  If it was in the back end of Halo 3 MM, it didn't do anything.

 

Same goes for Reach and the 4.

 

So many 50-0 games in slayer and 200+ kills in obj. CTF zealot <3 

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Ranked: Team Arena, FFA, Doubles

Social: Team Slayer, Multi Team, Social Skirmish, BTB

Warzone: who cares

 

That's all we really need. Stuff like Infection, Action Sack, Grifball SWAT and Snipers should be rotational or just pushed to the custom browser at this point (whatever happened to double XP weekends btw?).

We've been saying this for at least two years now. 20+ playlists and a custom browser wouldn't even have worked back in the glory days of H3, why 343 thinks having this many playlists with a peak population of maybe 20k is beyond me. Trim the fat, improve matchmaking with proper party restrictions and let's take it from there.

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Really love Hard Way's idea of Arena/Core/Social.

 

A lot of the biggest games have this extremely trimmed down playlist selection. Fortnite only has one way to play it. Rainbow 6 has ranked and casual. Counter Strike has an insane deathmatch mode and then the standard gametype everyone plays. Halo is so modular that there are a million potential playlists, but with just a handful of important playlists and the rest delegated to a server browser you could probably make everyone happy.

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If I hear "I want to feel like a Spartan" again, I'm going to lose my mind. Play campaign if you want to feel like an invincible super soldier, that's what its there for.

i hate that super soldier excuse.
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I don't really see a need for rotational social playlists at all. If someone wants to play SWAT or whatever let them play. Just put in zero skill matching requirements and you can find games quickly with 40 total players in a playlist. Making sure its a really solid and balanced experience is for ranked gameplay. Social literally exists so you can ignore all of that and just get into a game with some people and play something a little stupid. If it wasn't why in the world do people think bungie had team slayer ranked AND team slayer social? Its crazy if people complain about having too many social playlists and then turn around wanting to outsource those players to a custom browser. In either case they aren't in the other playlists so what was the net gain? A UI with less options on it? It actually makes more sense for people to suggest just removing their playlists entirely so they join others vs putting them in the custom browser. If they want to make something rotational or have an incentive to focus on different areas to create a feeling of change weekly/monthly try double XP/REQ events on a specific playlist for the week

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My take on it.

 

I had loads of fun grinding ranks on h3. I grinded 45+ in every ranked playlist and had a blast every time. Whether it was snipers, swat, living dead, btb, whatever. I miss that. If halo 6 had the playerbase to support all the ranked playlists, then I would be for it. But that's not going to happen. I agree with just having ranked doubles, arena, and FFA. Social slayer, multi team, skirmish, btb, action sack, and snipers should be the social playlists. Swat should be on rotation simply because it's a gimmick; it could be an option for action sack though (p.s. action sack should have halo online style voting where theres 3 maps or none of the above, everything else is veto system). 

 

 

Oh, and halo 3 definitely uses some type of check for social. It might be time played or some type of mmr. . To this day if i search on my main vs on a new account on h3 social slayer, I will get vastly different teammates and opponents, because the population is still there to support it. Now the check is really quick like "any 50s searching? no, any 40s? no any 30s? oh here you go. game set go. but if u searched a smaller playlist like btb or skirmish, you just get anything cause there's only so many people.  

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I usually play staff captains in H3 social and I'm 50 in multiple playlists etc. It might be because there's absolutely nobody playing but sometimes it'll find some people in the 40s/50s. Good chance its an EXP check rather than a level check. Then you have MCC where I just run wild dropping +20 bombs what feels like almost every game some nights and start matching the same few guys that maybe don't really know how to play. MCC honestly feels dead because there just aren't very many people who know how to play actually playing.

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I'm sorry, but I just can't take anyone seriously if they don't think ranked SWAT is an essential part of the Halo experience.

 

 

:lxthul:

 

I got my 50 in Griffball

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My take on it.

 

I had loads of fun grinding ranks on h3. I grinded 45+ in every ranked playlist and had a blast every time. Whether it was snipers, swat, living dead, btb, whatever. I miss that. If halo 6 had the playerbase to support all the ranked playlists, then I would be for it. But that's not going to happen. I agree with just having ranked doubles, arena, and FFA. Social slayer, multi team, skirmish, btb, action sack, and snipers should be the social playlists. Swat should be on rotation simply because it's a gimmick; it could be an option for action sack though (p.s. action sack should have halo online style voting where theres 3 maps or none of the above, everything else is veto system). 

 

 

The problem with grinding ranks in a H3 style system is that its only fun for the people that are actually capable of grinding ranks.  ie a small minority of the people playing the game. The people you have a blast shitting on through the first 40+ ranks are the same people that have a totally shit time when you play against them.  Allowing a grindey system like H3 had hurts a much larger portion of the player base than it helps.  Halo 3 matchmaking survived in spite of this system. it wasn't helped by it (except for maybe the top 5% of players).

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Maybe not the best thread for this question, but what are your thoughts on Teleporters? I'm actually curious if you guys think it's a good/bad idea to have them? Was that a flaw that H1/H2 had compared to the newer Halos which didn't have that many teleporters? Halo 5 has basically none.

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