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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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There is no reason to have more than 14 weapons in a Halo game.

 

Change my mind.

Well, if every weapon can be designed properly and uniquely, I don't see a problem with tons of weapons. My issue is when balancing those weapons has improper carryover between gametypes. Warzone right now being a prime example. I'd have no problems with how WZ weapons are numerous, easy, and inherently designed to make people feel good if that balance didn't carry over to Arena. But that's an issue with balance over the number.

 

More so to the point, having more than 14 weapons potentially gives people dumb amounts of options for customs/Forge. Not my cup of tea, but hey, it's an option, right? Not exactly a poor thing to have when done properly.

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Well, if every weapon can be designed properly and uniquely, I don't see a problem with tons of weapons. My issue is when balancing those weapons has improper carryover between gametypes. Warzone right now being a prime example. I'd have no problems with how WZ weapons are numerous, easy, and inherently designed to make people feel good if that balance didn't carry over to Arena. But that's an issue with balance over the number.

 

More so to the point, having more than 14 weapons potentially gives people dumb amounts of options for customs/Forge. Not my cup of tea, but hey, it's an option, right? Not exactly a poor thing to have when done properly.

 

What i don't get is how we can have 1,000 weapons for WZ but, we can't have Arena specific weapons like a classic br/snipe with no magnetism.

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What i don't get is how we can have 1,000 weapons for WZ but, we can't have Arena specific weapons like a classic br/snipe with no magnetism.

What, you thought 343i would be putting effort into making something properly classic for us? Tsk tsk. Can't be thinking like that.

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They made the CE pistol hitscan.

 

They made the CE pistol hitscan.

 

They made the CE pistol hitscan.

 

They made the CE pistol hitscan.

 

They made the CE pistol hitscan.

 

They made the CE pistol hitscan.

Remember when they brought in the Grenade Launcher, a loved weapon from Reach, and proceeded to unveil a variant dubbed the "Pro Pipe", a play on the old name for it because it was lovingly difficult to use. To which they then shit on by having this "Pro Pipe" literally require you to have no aiming skill. Because grenades literally home in on and magnetize to people.

 

Nutty.

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I could probably balance the H5 sandbox on my lunch break one time and it would've been fine for the entire life span of the game. Weapon balance is literally so easy it blows my mind that they have a team of guys sitting there day in n out looking at a bunch of useless statistics and not doing anything with them. What a joke of a position.

I hate that someone somewhere probably thinks we're just a bunch of armchair devs when it comes to this and we don't really know whats going on. Its not like we're breaking new ground here. We've seen 17 years of Halo. We've been playing the shooter genre as a whole for even longer. The problems they have with weapon and sandbox design are actually basic logic errors that anyone can and probably should be able to correct with little effort and live experience.

 

In fact I bet the real problem is company politics with too many hands in the pot. Nobody is this stupid. Something is holding up the process and adding useless/pointless additions rather than having everything moving forward

The reality of it is that studios aren't and can't reasonably be made up of die hard Halo fans that are also technically proficient. You get designers, leads, etc. who don't, won't, or can't determine what's best for Halo. This is going to be true anywhere, the effects are just felt more with high profile franchises with a long history and large fan base.

 

I will say there is some truth to the 'armchair developer' idea, but I don't feel that doesn't apply to everyone here. 

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The reality of it is that studios aren't and can't reasonably be made up of die hard Halo fans that are also technically proficient. You get designers, leads, etc. who don't, won't, or can't determine what's best for Halo. This is going to be true anywhere, the effects are just felt more with high profile franchises with a long history and large fan base.

 

I will say there is some truth to the 'armchair developer' idea, but I don't feel that doesn't apply to everyone here. 

I agree with you but at the same time its really frustrating when decisions such as "lets just have the snipe basically aim for people because players move a little faster sometimes in Halo 5" happen or "lets make the AR a mid range weapon that's competitive with the magnum over many distances except you don't even have to try to aim the closer someone gets" and then it takes years and some guy coming back with a shit load of data who works inside of said studio for anyone to acknowledge the problem and then try for a fix. This really has nothing to do with working with a game engine or whatever as some people might point out. Its as simple as understanding the risk/reward of using the weapons in game and recognizing when something is too good for too little effort. Its crazy. They're also notably slow compared to virtually the entire gaming industry with any sort of balancing. Weeks and months for a patch? Ok. Years? Lol.

 

Maybe its a difference in philosophy because it seems like they really believe picking up the power weapon to be nearly the only thing that matters (kind of like rockets in previous Halo titles) and not actually needing to play exceptionally skillfully once you have them to make a big impact. The bar is set so low with every power weapon because not only do they kill instantly in Halo 5 they also made sure its exceptionally easy to hit shots with any of them. Then they turn around and remove ammo because they realize players are too effective with said weapons so they need to get rid of ammo to stop the snowballing. Its a self made problem with the weirdest solution ever. Instead of making things harder so that only the best can stop a team they just remove the situation all together. I will say they did try to make the railgun and snipe harder to use. It really wasn't enough with snipe but the rail is actually okay from a distance I'd say now. 

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Well, if every weapon can be designed properly and uniquely, I don't see a problem with tons of weapons. My issue is when balancing those weapons has improper carryover between gametypes. Warzone right now being a prime example. I'd have no problems with how WZ weapons are numerous, easy, and inherently designed to make people feel good if that balance didn't carry over to Arena. But that's an issue with balance over the number.

 

More so to the point, having more than 14 weapons potentially gives people dumb amounts of options for customs/Forge. Not my cup of tea, but hey, it's an option, right? Not exactly a poor thing to have when done properly.

 

Inconsistency between built-in game modes is bad, people shouldn't have to retrain themselves on the sandbox depending on if they're playing Campaign, Warzone, Arena, etc.

 

You can come up with all sorts of crazy concepts for weapons but it still needs to be useful, fit in, and be fun to use in the context of Halo. You don't want Mario Party, FPS edition.

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It really wasn't enough with snipe but the rail is actually okay from a distance I'd say now.

Dis-a-gree. Rail is still the most obnoxiously easy weapon that is somehow still in comp. A OHKO, with the range, precision and magnetism of a sniper rifle, yet a wider reticle easing that aiming process that may normally be slightly difficult for the rifle. The "nerf" they did to increase its charge and hold time actually buffed the damn thing, because people can nearly Arclight it around a map. Superbly bad. May as well be a Nornfang on the map.

 

Inconsistency between built-in game modes is bad, people shouldn't have to retrain themselves on the sandbox depending on if they're playing Campaign, Warzone, Arena, etc.

 

You can come up with all sorts of crazy concepts for weapons but it still needs to be useful, fit in, and be fun to use in the context of Halo. You don't want Mario Party, FPS edition.

I personally disagree. Halo 4 had balance inconsistency between MM and Spartan Ops as it never received the Turbo patch. Despite the changes being pretty dramatic, there wasn't a gigantic disconnect between the two modes, and you can basically swap between the two fine. It's a case where balance differences didn't do much.

 

Not to mention, inconsistency boils down to so much more than just balance. Take HWC and HWC FFA. They force you to play entirely different "games" regarding one another. To where there's enough inconsistency that you do have to train yourself to play a certain way for one or the other, if you want to play competitively for any span of time. It's hilarious actually being able to tell hardcore FFA people from Arena players, because they play entirely differently when they do jump into Arena, and the two playlists are identical in loadouts, map layouts, etc. Barring a few exceptions, IIRC. @My Namez BEAST can attest to seeing this with me way too much. There's a giant disconnect between a good FFA player, and good CTF player in HWC because of that inconsistency in the gametype's manner of play, despite them being so similar with loadouts, weapons, etc.

 

There's going to be inconsistency in gametypes already, and while I know you're talking about the sandbox, there's much more to it with retraining yourself than just how powerful, easy, or hard your weapons are. To where I do think ease of use and power are the least of one's concerns if you're afraid of inconsistency and having to retrain your mindset.

 

The consistency of Warzone and Arena weapons is the reason Arena is now half-baked garbage. Tuning it to be harder than Warzone really has no ramifications, other than affecting people in Warzone who now will theoretically have more difficulty performing in Arena, which shouldn't be a gigantic issue if you're pushing a properly competitive game. If someone's affected negatively because they now have to aim in most of Arena, compared to Warzone where you don't need to touch someone with your reticle to kill them, I don't see an issue.

 

You also already have inconsistency between Warzone and Arena with the radar types, which in essence does nothing but punish Warzone players who grow to rely on radar. It's not exactly a killer there, either, and doesn't exactly require constant retraining to understand. Of course, I get I may speak for myself, but the distinction is literally how you're able to move at a base. Something you should be able to understand if you take two seconds to just think about it and look at your HUD. Even casual players know radar like WZ's forces you to slow/crouch walk, while HWC allows you to freeroam and move quickly.

 

Dunno, I won't exactly say inconsistency's the best thing ever (Although, I don't care when inconsistency's for casual gametypes), but weapons are the LEAST important part of it when you look at Halo 5, and thus, I don't see an issue of making Warzone and Arena's sandboxes different. Make your competitive playlist as competitive as you can. Go nuts with Warzone and whatever you want. It's not competitive, you chose to put resources into it.

 

Towards your thing on weapons, I agree they shouldn't just be redundant copies of one another more so to avoid a waste of dev resources (Personal opinion for me, since "waste" can be a super subjective thing), but as long as these weapons aren't being put in HWC/HCS, and are just there to be fun things, like many pieces of the forge palette, then I still don't see the harm. The moment I get a Pro Pipe in HWC? Yeah, then I'll say it's poor, but just making random shit to please some people in forge/customs with whacky stuff? Eh. Who am I to judge that if the competitive part of the game isn't super affected.

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First, are you still working in the game industry or trying to?

 

Second, you think you would learn after the first couple of things that happened to you that you no longer are anonymous on the internet and no matter how much you act and smile during interviews in the gaming industry, you end up looking like a guy who thinks way too highly of himself through posts like this one.

 

That's how you come off, not how you probably are. It's not hard to assign a face to an avatar these days, and a post like this doesn't come off like confidence, but sheer arrogance. Regardless of your point.

 

 

To be fair, that is exactly what everyone here is. A bunch of armchair devs with some having some game or engine experience and nothing more. I would hedge that most here lack virtually all qualifications or experience required to get into game design.

 

And yes, we do not truly know what is going on at 343. Most guesses are at best, speculation and at worst, total nonsense. I personally would rather err on the side of caution when it comes to forming conclusions about what is going on over there.

Edit: I'll answer that question when it's time lol soon tm

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First, are you still working in the game industry or trying to?

 

Second, you think you would learn after the first couple of things that happened to you that you no longer are anonymous on the internet and no matter how much you act and smile during interviews in the gaming industry, you end up looking like a guy who thinks way too highly of himself through posts like this one. 

 

That's how you come off, not how you probably are. It's not hard to assign a face to an avatar these days, and a post like this doesn't come off like confidence, but sheer arrogance. Regardless of your point.

 

 

To be fair, that is exactly what everyone here is. A bunch of armchair devs with some having some game or engine experience and nothing more. I would hedge that most here lack virtually all qualifications or experience required to get into game design. 

 

And yes, we do not truly know what is going on at 343. Most guesses are at best, speculation and at worst, total nonsense. I personally would rather err on the side of caution when it comes to forming conclusions about what is going on over there.

 

Uh-oh, the sheriff is getting high and mighty again. 

 

Dunno, I won't exactly say inconsistency's the best thing ever (Although, I don't care when inconsistency's for casual gametypes), but weapons are the LEAST important part of it when you look at Halo 5, and thus, I don't see an issue of making Warzone and Arena's sandboxes different. Make your competitive playlist as competitive as you can. Go nuts with Warzone and whatever you want. It's not competitive, you chose to put resources into it.

Towards your thing on weapons, I agree they shouldn't just be redundant copies of one another more so to avoid a waste of dev resources (Personal opinion for me, since "waste" can be a super subjective thing), but as long as these weapons aren't being put in HWC/HCS, and are just there to be fun things, like many pieces of the forge palette, then I still don't see the harm. The moment I get a Pro Pipe in HWC? Yeah, then I'll say it's poor, but just making random shit to please some people in forge/customs with whacky stuff? Eh. Who am I to judge that if the competitive part of the game isn't super affected.

 

Putting weapons in the game JUST for forge/customs is a waste of resources for the developer. And it would probably be a fruitless endeavor anyway since half the reason Halo 2 and Halo 3 customs were so entertaining was that people were making something out of nothing. If the base game is good enough, people will come, and the customs stuff will fall into place.

 

As for Warzone, it can be pretty sweaty at times. I wrote it off as a joke of a game mode before Halo 5's launch, a la rocket race or flood, but close games that hang in the balance of killing that last boss or capping that base can be surprisingly fun (even if for every one of those you get ten 1000-200 mismatches where a team of 12 just farms the entire time). You could easily put a sandbox together that satisfies both Arena and Warzone, without bringing a silly amount of weapons into the mix.

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Putting weapons in the game JUST for forge/customs is a waste of resources for the developer. And it would probably be a fruitless endeavor anyway since half the reason Halo 2 and Halo 3 customs were so entertaining was that people were making something out of nothing. If the base game is good enough, people will come, and the customs stuff will fall into place.

 

As for Warzone, it can be pretty sweaty at times. I wrote it off as a joke of a game mode before Halo 5's launch, a la rocket race or flood, but close games that hang in the balance of killing that last boss or capping that base can be surprisingly fun (even if for every one of those you get ten 1000-200 mismatches where a team of 12 just farms the entire time). You could easily put a sandbox together that satisfies both Arena and Warzone, without bringing a silly amount of weapons into the mix.

I mean, hey, if it extends the lifespan of the gametype or the game, I wouldn't consider it an outright waste. Like many assets in H3/Reach that went generally unused or were rarely used in MM, but were available in Forge. With how versatile forgers can be, I'm open to the idea of just adding shit to add shit as long as the dev is at least creative with introducing new elements. Halo 5 forge had quite a bit of that to make it a really robust editor even if tons of shit goes unused, currently.

 

However, you know what can also be sweaty? H3 Throwback with a completely broken BR, an over reliance on easy power weapons, and broken ass maps with broken ass spawns. (SOMEHOW people like that, and praise it. It's NUTS.) Like, the first minutes of Warzone, where it's essentially BTB Deluxe Strongholds can be fine, albeit still irrelevant to my point. Late game's just generally cancer. 

 

But my point more so laid in how, if we're hypothetically stuck with the sandbox we have now, I'd rather they just make the Arena sandbox harder and keep Warzone as is, while redoing the REQ system. We're at a point where we've already introduced these weapons and I'd bet any amount of money taking a mass amount away for redundancy won't be a happy option for the general masses who probably don't see the issue with them.

 

I'm not saying you couldn't put a sandbox together that would have less weapons, nor that I don't agree with that. Just that with the current scenario, I think we're stuck with these weapons and I'd rather have/think of the next best realistic thing with making sure they work on both sides.

 

Uh-oh, the sheriff is getting high and mighty again. 

Pure "lmaos", though, lmao. 

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More custom games options is always gonna be a huge benefit lol what. I'm all for dumping tons of shit into it just so people can mess with stuff and find something new and interesting. We don't need to purposely limit the game just cuz. And I cannot believe that I am even looking at the words competitive and Warzone next to each other. Stop. Stop now please. Anything can be "sweaty" even fiesta. That doesn't change anything about it at all. Sweaty Warzone is one of the worst parts of halo 5. A game mode with 12 people and no party restrictions where you can call in tons of shit. What could possibly go wrong?

 

I just want good balance arena and if that mean making "arena only" weapons I would be down for it. If they can't balance things for both modes than they can have exclusive weapons for each mode.

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Or they could design the game with from the beginning with customization in mind and expose all of the variables they are tweaking to create the illusion that there are actually 7 different semi-auto precision rifles.

 

Though, based on some of their statements (like their apparent inability to add any more skins), I get the impression that they are dealing with a bunch of time-wasting legacy systems that make everything more difficult than it seems like it should be.

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I mean, hey, if it extends the lifespan of the gametype or the game, I wouldn't consider it an outright waste. Like many assets in H3/Reach that went generally unused or were rarely used in MM, but were available in Forge. With how versatile forgers can be, I'm open to the idea of just adding shit to add shit as long as the dev is at least creative with introducing new elements. Halo 5 forge had quite a bit of that to make it a really robust editor even if tons of shit goes unused, currently.

 

However, you know what can also be sweaty? H3 Throwback with a completely broken BR, an over reliance on easy power weapons, and broken ass maps with broken ass spawns. (SOMEHOW people like that, and praise it. It's NUTS.) Like, the first minutes of Warzone, where it's essentially BTB Deluxe Strongholds can be fine, albeit still irrelevant to my point. Late game's just generally cancer. 

 

But my point more so laid in how, if we're hypothetically stuck with the sandbox we have now, I'd rather they just make the Arena sandbox harder and keep Warzone as is, while redoing the REQ system. We're at a point where we've already introduced these weapons and I'd bet any amount of money taking a mass amount away for redundancy won't be a happy option for the general masses who probably don't see the issue with them.

 

I'm not saying you couldn't put a sandbox together that would have less weapons, nor that I don't agree with that. Just that with the current scenario, I think we're stuck with these weapons and I'd rather have/think of the next best realistic thing with making sure they work on both sides.

 

Let me rephrase - you could easily put a sandbox together that satisfies Arena and Warzone, without compromising any one weapon to better fit one game mode or the other.

 

Warzone has a lot of possibilities as a competitive game mode. There's a lot of room for improvement compared to how Halo 5 did it (RNG-based weapon reserves and silly scoring system among other things).

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Let me rephrase - you could easily put a sandbox together that satisfies Arena and Warzone, without compromising any one weapon to better fit one game mode or the other.

 

Warzone has a lot of possibilities as a competitive game mode. There's a lot of room for improvement compared to how Halo 5 did it (RNG-based weapon reserves and silly scoring system among other things).

Probs. 

 

However, lowkey, I never want Warzone to be pushed competitively at all when it's literally inferior to BTB in every way, and always will be, which on its own is already not really competitive because vehicles are AIDS and the clusterfuck amounts of enemies and allies is dumb.

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Do the typical thing where someone says how to create a super obvious fake cheat code (spin in a circle multiple times and dump your controller in water.) Be THAT asshole.

 

it didnt work and my controller is broken please help.

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Or they could design the game with from the beginning with customization in mind and expose all of the variables they are tweaking to create the illusion that there are actually 7 different semi-auto precision rifles.

 

Though, based on some of their statements (like their apparent inability to add any more skins), I get the impression that they are dealing with a bunch of time-wasting legacy systems that make everything more difficult than it seems like it should be.

Franchise this old and a dev that insists on creating their own engine, yeah there is definitely some legacy shit in there.  I am kind of hoping that part of the reason for the delay with the 3 year cycle is so they can rip out all the legacy shit.

 

Remember when Josh was here and told us that the great thing about the way they designed Halo 5 was that they didn't need to push full TU's to update weapons?  How did that work out....

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it didnt work and my controller is broken please help.

I'm sorry but Customer Service can not be reached at this time. Please try again later.

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They made the CE pistol hitscan.

 

They made the CE pistol hitscan.

 

 

They made the CE pistol hitscan.

 

They made the CE pistol hitscan.

 

They made the CE pistol hitscan.

 

They made the CE pistol hitscan.

Was this for the Warzone version?

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when was @@QuietMan banned.

 

I guess its bloody Forever Quietman now.

quote because I also want to know

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I know 343 will never get it right, but I'm also terrified that the big PC fan projects won't get the weapon balance right either. It seems like the overwhelming majority of the fanbase doesn't really understand this topic at all.

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I know 343 will never get it right, but I'm also terrified that the big PC fan projects won't get the weapon balance right either. It seems like the overwhelming majority of the fanbase doesn't really understand this topic at all.

I mean it can be summed up pretty easily as

 

1. How hard is this to use

2. How quickly does it kill on average and what's the shortest kill time possible

3. How many shots does it have

4. How often is someone using this

5. How much range does it have

 

If someone can work through that and come back with an AR that's easier than the magnum, a similar kill time, with a lot of effective range you can tell them to go back and walk through all of that again because they obviously didn't think about what they were doing. You don't have to be some kind of hardcore Halo player to make logical decisions.

 

Bad things only happen when you take the above and create a weapon that doesn't have weakness or only has weaknesses. Rockets were fine because of the difficulty of long range kills and relatively few shots. The sniper was fine because people actually missed with it often so it was okay when skill was rewarded greatly with 1 shot kills if you actually could hit the shots. The AR was fine because despite being extremely easy the kill time was typically longer and it had less range than other weapons. Its all give and take. When something like the sniper stops being hard to hit shots with the game breaks because now its just better. There is no trade off anymore and that person just goes and rails everyone on the map for awhile unless they're just completely awful or very unlucky. Imagine hit scan rockets or a 12 shot clip in rockets. Lol you can't take away the weaknesses of weapons that balance their strengths 

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