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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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As an legitimate gold rank in Team Arena with a 0.6 K/D, I would like to offer my opinion about CTF tactics that every single player who is even half decent at the game uses 90% of the time.

 

:simms:

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As an legitimate gold rank in Team Arena with a 0.6 K/D, I would like to offer my opinion about CTF tactics that every single player who is even half decent at the game uses 90% of the time.

 

:simms:

 

Golds are worse than Bronze players, because gold's think they understand the game and are the top dogs, and the bronze players are sticking crayons in their noses and doing their own shit.

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Golds are worse than Bronze players, because gold's think they understand the game and are the top dogs, and the bronze players are sticking crayons in their noses and doing their own shit.

 

Bronze players are endearingly bad. Gold players actually connect with their Spartan Charges.

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image.jpg

 

"Unga bunga me smart cus me no drop flag and b sneaky"

 

"Ahh, der creature has dem... goodly, goodly. Now us can stick der chompy bird... But da chompy not coming without da fatsy toadies... Godda get der fatsy toadies to get da chompys. Den we put it over de're and sneaky, sneaky stick da chompy."

 

reps if anyone gets the reference without google search

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"Ahh, der creature has dem... goodly, goodly. Now us can stick der chompy bird... But da chompy not coming without da fatsy toadies... Godda get der fatsy toadies to get da chompys. Den we put it over de're and sneaky, sneaky stick da chompy."

 

reps if anyone gets the reference without google search

 

That quest from Runescape with the ogres

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I’m curious how y’all feel about the strength of the OS scaling up as the player count goes up.

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I’m curious how y’all feel about the strength of the OS scaling up as the player count goes up.

Depends on the frequency and effectiveness of the weapons and power ups on map I feel.

 

Maybe something like power weapon cycles could work where every minute a couple tier 2s spawn somewhere on map along with a weaker powerup like base OS. Then every 2 to 3 mins you get Rocket/Snipe/double OS or something.

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Depends on the frequency and effectiveness of the weapons and power ups on map I feel.

 

Maybe something like power weapon cycles could work where every minute a couple tier 2s spawn somewhere on map along with a weaker powerup like base OS. Then every 2 to 3 mins you get Rocket/Snipe/double OS or something.

I wouldn't mind different strength OS's spawning in the same game either. I think that'd create some interesting choices, just like it does in Quake.

 

I've always felt that the strength of the OS matters a lot less as player counts go up. I think it'd be interesting if BTB had a much stronger OS.  2's could get away with a weaker OS than 4v4 uses if it spawned every minute and couldn't be burned.

 

And 1v1? I think it'd be interesting if we had much higher health, but much slower shield regen, and make the powerups just a quick way to refill your shields. Or maybe like your shields don't come back at all, and we put a 2 or 3 custom powerups on the map whose only job is to begin shield recharge. Idk, I'm just trying to find a way to make 1v1 in Halo not so dumb.

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Hey guys, haven't been here in a while. My love for Halo ebbs and flows ever since Halo 5. I watched some of the Columbus tournament and it kinda got my juices flowing again.

 

Last time I was playing they were just about to implement a bunch of gun balance changes. I saw there were virtually no BRs used this weekend, so I figured things have changed pretty heavily. How's the sandbox holding up nowadays?

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How's the sandbox holding up nowadays?

 

The Battle Rifle now has no random spread, but instead a vertical recoil; it's RRR for hipfire is less than the Magnum. It essentially became a back-up weapon with Burst Fire. There was a recent change where they made long range scopes not have as much vertical recoil.

 

The Carbine's random spread is almost nil, and its RRR for both hipfire and zoom got decreased. It basically became a spammy low tier power weapon.

 

The DMR's aim assist was increased slightly, along with its hipfire RRR. It's fire-rate is still slow.

 

They finally made nerfs to the Storm Rifle and Brute Plasma, the former overheating faster and more spready, the latter having weaker bolts and slight spread increase.

 

Meh

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The Battle Rifle now has no random spread, but instead a vertical recoil; it's RRR for hipfire is less than the Magnum. It essentially became a back-up weapon with Burst Fire. There was a recent change where they made long range scopes not have as much vertical recoil.

 

The Carbine's random spread is almost nil, and its RRR for both hipfire and zoom got decreased. It basically became a spammy low tier power weapon.

 

The DMR's aim assist was increased slightly, along with its hipfire RRR. It's fire-rate is still slow.

 

They finally made nerfs to the Storm Rifle and Brute Plasma, the former overheating faster and more spready, the latter having weaker bolts and slight spread increase.

 

Meh

 

meh indeed.

 

Most of these changes came in just a few weeks ago too.  The carbine doesn't suck anymore, so I expect it to start getting more use soon but everything else will stay the way it has been.  the nerf to the storm is laughably weak.  Overheating was never the problem and the bolt still track pretty heavily.  I would rather see it be MORE accurate, slower projectiles that don't track at all.

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Oh wow. Yeah I'm glad the BR spread was reverted, but the RRR being shorter than the pistol? That's a tad silly. I believe they made a change to spread out the burst, in terms of ROF, and I agree with that in principle, but I'm not sure how the slam dunk change to the BR wasn't just to lower reticle magnetism. Just make it a little harder to aim, and space out the burst a little. Lower range seems wonky.

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Oh wow. Yeah I'm glad the BR spread was reverted, but the RRR being shorter than the pistol? That's a tad silly. I believe they made a change to spread out the burst, in terms of ROF, and I agree with that in principle, but I'm not sure how the slam dunk change to the BR wasn't just to lower reticle magnetism. Just make it a little harder to aim, and space out the burst a little. Lower range seems wonky.

 

Correct.  I don't really see the need for spread in a console shooter anyway.  now with the BR the best way to get a headshot is to aim at the chest and let the recoil do the work.  Still much better than the OG BR though where the best way to get a headshot was just to make sure the reticle was aimed in their general direction.  Monty Python fart-style.

 

The thing i am afraid of is that they have said another round of tuning is coming.... and that now with the nerfs to other weapons, the magnum "outclasses everything" ie. they are going to nerf it.  The only thing i could see them doing that would even remotely make sense would be a "nerf only if you miss".  Make it a 4sk with a slower fire rate so it has the same perfect TTK and longer average-TTK,

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I think a staple of 343 balance going forward is going to be automatics being more effective against precision weapons. I don't think Halo 5 was an isolated incident in that regard. 343 wants BR start and AR start people to coexist, like they tried with Halo 5. It didn't quite work the way they wanted. But you can bet from here on out, they will be doing their best to flirt with that line again. Nerfing BR and pistol is that idea in action.

 

We can never have what we want in terms of precision weapons. I'm hoping that halo 5 serves as a beta for Halo 6 where 343 takes the right lessons from the last 3 years, but I doubt they will.

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343 didn't learn a damn thing from Halo 4 to Halo 5. The weapon sandbox still consists of 20-something weapons that fit into about 5 roles between them. They still treat covenant weapons like UNSC weapons that fire neon bullets. They got rid of the class-based armor abilities format by giving everyone 5 full-time armor abilities (sprint/slide, thrust, ground pound, spartan charge, stabilize). The maps are still bloated to accommodate sprint while being cluttered with scenery objects and other miscellaneous sight-line blockers. There isn't much reason to think they'll suddenly figure it out in Halo 6.

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343 didn't learn a damn thing from Halo 4 to Halo 5. The weapon sandbox still consists of 20-something weapons that fit into about 5 roles between them. They still treat covenant weapons like UNSC weapons that fire neon bullets. They got rid of the class-based armor abilities format by giving everyone 5 full-time armor abilities (sprint/slide, thrust, ground pound, spartan charge, stabilize). The maps are still bloated to accommodate sprint while being cluttered with scenery objects and other miscellaneous sight-line blockers. There isn't much reason to think they'll suddenly figure it out in Halo 6.

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me quintupleth shame on me.

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I think a staple of 343 balance going forward is going to be automatics being more effective against precision weapons. I don't think Halo 5 was an isolated incident in that regard. 343 wants BR start and AR start people to coexist, like they tried with Halo 5. It didn't quite work the way they wanted. But you can bet from here on out, they will be doing their best to flirt with that line again. Nerfing BR and pistol is that idea in action.

 

We can never have what we want in terms of precision weapons. I'm hoping that halo 5 serves as a beta for Halo 6 where 343 takes the right lessons from the last 3 years, but I doubt they will.

 

What kills me is if they want a good AR.... just use the Halo 4 AR.  One of the few things that went right in that game was the strength of the AR.

 

Some things really need a skill gap, named precision headshot capable weapons.  Automatics really don't... they just need to kill slow enough that past mid-skill level the weapon stops being played.  That's the wrong lesson taken from the original H5 AR.  They did the math and there was no skill gap to the weapon from Diamond+.  That was a good analysis.   So they try to create artificial skill by reducing the base damage and increasing the headshot multiplier. Thats the wrong lesson. Its still a spam weapon with random spread and generous headshot hitboxes.  

 

IMO there are 2 ways to go about creating an AR for halo:

 

1) Go for the skill-gap.  Create a headshot-capable automatic projectile weapon that does low base damage per shot with short RRR, no zoom and minimal bullet magnetism but is perfectly accurate. Can compete with lower fire rate precision weapons but only if your accuracy is dead perfect. Frankly, this design would alienate lower skill players because it would be too hard to hit shots with and higher skilled players wouldn't use it except as cleanup because it wouldn't be as rangy and reliable as other precision weapons.

2) Replicate the H4 AR.  Random spread with lower total damage and no headshot multiplier.  Easier to use for lower level players, but doesn't do a ton of damage compared to the harder to use precision weapons.  By the time you get to high level play, nobody is using it because it kills too slow but at lower levels its a fairly effective weapon that people can use to put down some damage without getting frustrated worrying about their accuracy.  Not every weapon needs a big skill gap.

 

Instead they kind of shot for the middle.  Lowered base damage on a random spread bullet hose but then increased the headshot multiplier..... it makes no sense.

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I agree, I just think they want this sandbox where results are equal at times, but effort isn't. They want autos to win at close range, which makes sense, but... How do I say this nicely... If you want people that traditionally use ARs to be able to compete with people that use pistols and BRs, you sorta need to upend the balance of the game. Once you do that and make the AR brain dead powerful at close range, like they did, then you get good players using ARs, and that creates cancer of your gametypes and maps allow for it.

 

There needs to be a lesson learned from Halo 5, and how it balanced autos incorrectly.

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I agree, I just think they want this sandbox where results are equal at times, but effort isn't. They want autos to win at close range, which makes sense, but... How do I say this nicely... If you want people that traditionally use ARs to be able to compete with people that use pistols and BRs, you sorta need to upend the balance of the game. Once you do that and make the AR brain dead powerful at close range, like they did, then you get good players using ARs, and that creates cancer of your gametypes and maps allow for it.

 

There needs to be a lesson learned from Halo 5, and how it balanced autos incorrectly.

The arbitrary requirement that autos “win at close range” is the problem. It should be enough that ARs are easy to use at close range.

 

The win should go to whoever displays the most skill. Since the AR has such a high probability of landing shots, it should have a higher TTK. The skill would be outlasting the TTK of your opponents weapon via your movement. So if a AR user beats a magnum user- it’s because the Magnum user got shit on- not because an AR was used at close range.

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H4 AR should absolutely be the standard going forward. However, it should be given some unique properties that give players a reason to keep it at higher levels. Faster melee, better melee range, fast draw time, faster recloak with camo, better damage against powerups, etc. I disagree that the weapon should become obsolete at higher levels.

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Too confusing for players.

 

-343

 

15 buttons required to traverse map.

 

-Also 343

You’re probably right that 343 would view such subtle depth as too confusing for players. But that’s just ridiculous. These are the kind of nuances that keep people interested in a game as they figure out new things over time.

 

It’s also absurd that their method of making each weapon worth using was to basically have all their properties converge. The effect of this is that it’s trivializes the decision to change weapons.

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H4 AR should absolutely be the standard going forward. However, it should be given some unique properties that give players a reason to keep it at higher levels. Faster melee, better melee range, fast draw time, faster recloak with camo, better damage against powerups, etc. I disagree that the weapon should become obsolete at higher levels.

 

Why though?  Why not let a weapon become obsolete at higher levels of play?  Introducing a niche use won't really change that i don't think (though niche things like that would still be welcome).  Like, it might encourage you to pick it up when you come across one, but it won't be enough to have you go out of your way for it.

 

I guess i just don't subscribe to the school of balance thought that all weapons need to be useful at all levels.

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The problem with "high skill" autos cannot be solved in Halo. It fundamentally doesn't work for the kind of game Halo is for a few reasons.

 

1. Descope. This is already a problem with the Carbine, but high fire rates encourage spam over carefully-placed shots and this becomes even worse at ranges with zooming in is necessary. This is especially bad in Halo 5 where getting back on target after being descoped is hell (thanks to that sick aiming system).

 

2. Halo isn't actually that precision-focused. Look, even with the Magnum, you really only need ONE shot out of five to hit a particularly small target. The rest could clip their toes for all the difference it makes. Add this to a high fire rate weapon and precision is even less of a factor. Even if you gave a weapon like the AR identical aim assist properties to the magnum, it would still be obnoxious. The intentional rhythm of semi-auto precision weapons in Halo is a huge part of their appeal.

 

3. Aim assist and analogue stick aiming severely limit the feasible options for adding real difficulty to automatics. A Halo game on PC, balanced with PC in mind (i.e. zero aim assist) could experiment with things like spray patterns and the like, but I have serious doubts for the viability of that sort of thing on console.

 

And that's without addressing the simple question of "Why?" Why do automatics need to be skill-focused and why do they need to contend with precision weapons in the hands of competent players? Why do they need to remain useful at high levels. It doesn't add anything meaningful to the game. It just adds shallow variety and guarantees more uneven gun fights. Both of those are what I consider casual appeal and should have no bearing on balance for high level play.

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