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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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You understand not wanting to homogenize the map pool, but we should probably homogenize the map pool, because reasons. Ok.

 

There's nothing inherently unbalanced about Derelict. Yes, a game on Derelict is a game of runs. Yes, Derelict is rife with spawn killing. Yes, you will get plowed if the other team seizes total top control. But guess what? If you rip it away from them, you can apply that same treatment right back. They went up 40-20 on you while they had top control? You have a very legitimate chance of closing that gap if you can take it back. It's not impossible, it's not luck-based, there's just very little margin for error.

 

Halo 5 really has ruined everything, hasn't it? Every map in Halo 5 is devoid of rewards, obstacles, and game changers, and is essentially the same bland jungle-gym bullshit copied and pasted 11 or 12 times over. I guess that's been accepted as the new normal, and now everyone wants to go back and apply that treatment to every map in every other Halo game that deviates from the accepted formula. Speak out against it and you're a troll. Awesome.

I don't think the ability to go on equally shitty rampages justifies the fact that you get rampaged on, like what kind of reasoning is that. The map is inherently snowbally. That's the principle opposite of everything arena shooters stand for. If you like the flipping and sustained pressure aspect of dere I think there are much better ways to do it than a giant ring over a giant donut.

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I don't think the ability to go on equally shitty rampages justifies the fact that you get rampaged on, like what kind of reasoning is that. The map is inherently snowbally. That's the principle opposite of everything arena shooters stand for. If you like the flipping and sustained pressure aspect of dere I think there are much better ways to do it than a giant ring over a giant donut.

 

It's like trying to justify dirty spawn timers and SMG starts in Halo 2 because "there's little margin for error and the other team can go on an equally snowbally run!"

 

I don't consider it very fair or interesting. Either Derelict is a complete blowout for the better team or its unreasonably close for the worse team that would normally get crushed on other maps.

 

Just having different gameplay experiences for the sake of them isn't a good excuse. I mean you might as well play Chiron then, why not? There's some unique meta and strategy to exploit in such a map. The reason Derelict gets played more than Chiron is specifically because it does still conform to expectations, and in fact conforms the most to the expected gameplay loops of pistol fighting and powerup control but to the extreme. It's not breaking the mold.

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I don't think the ability to go on equally shitty rampages justifies the fact that you get rampaged on, like what kind of reasoning is that. The map is inherently snowbally. That's the principle opposite of everything arena shooters stand for. If you like the flipping and sustained pressure aspect of dere I think there are much better ways to do it than a giant ring over a giant donut.

 

Says who?

 

Some maps are fast-paced and tilt the scales in favor of the team in control and facilitate killing sprees. Other maps are slower-paced and play more tit-for-tat. It's called variety. You guys really need to purge the endless bullshit one-note monotony of Empire, Plaza, and Coliseum from your minds.

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It's like trying to justify dirty spawn timers and SMG starts in Halo 2 because "there's little margin for error and the other team can go on an equally snowbally run!"

 

I don't consider it very fair or interesting. Either Derelict is a complete blowout for the better team or its unreasonably close for the worse team that would normally get crushed on other maps.

 

Just having different gameplay experiences for the sake of them isn't a good excuse. I mean you might as well play Chiron then, why not? There's some unique meta and strategy to exploit in such a map. The reason Derelict gets played more than Chiron is specifically because it does still conform to expectations, and in fact conforms the most to the expected gameplay loops of pistol fighting and powerup control but to the extreme. It's not breaking the mold.

 

Except dirty spawn timers are highly exploitable and not very intuitive, and SMG starts deny players the ability to adequate defend themselves off spawn or anywhere else. Neither of which is an issue nor has any analogue to anything on Derelict in Halo 1. So it's not like that at all, but please go on!

 

Why would a team that has top on Derelict get crushed on other maps? If their skill level is lower, they won't be able to keep control as easily. Maybe they do it, maybe they don't. If they do, they played well and deserve credit. Derelict isn't Sword Base, nobody has an inherent, god-given advantage.

 

That last paragraph is lulz. I hope you stretched before those mental gymnastics.

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Says who?

 

Some maps are fast-paced and tilt the scales in favor of the team in control and facilitate killing sprees. Other maps are slower-paced and play more tit-for-tat. It's called variety. You guys really need to purge the endless bullshit one-note monotony of Empire, Plaza, and Coliseum from your minds.

Okay well first of all I think Empire Plaza and Colli are all shit.

 

And my problem with Dere has nothing to do with pacing, I think most maps should be fast in some regard. My problem has to do with how completely brainless the map is to play on top of the snowballing. It's such a shallow experience it's hard for me to take that map any more seriously than Boarding Action and the ONLY reason anyone even defends it is because it happened to be one of the maps that launched with the damn game. If it was just added in 1.5 no one would give a damn about it because it's awful. It's quite literally one big donut with a high upper ring.

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Okay well first of all I think Empire Plaza and Colli are all shit.

 

And my problem with Dere has nothing to do with pacing, I think most maps should be fast in some regard. My problem has to do with how completely brainless the map is to play on top of the snowballing. It's such a shallow experience it's hard for me to take that map any more seriously than Boarding Action and the ONLY reason anyone even defends it is because it happened to be one of the maps that launched with the damn game. If it was just added in 1.5 no one would give a damn about it because it's awful. It's quite literally one big donut with a high upper ring.

 

zPRBW7k.gif

 

 

 

At least you're admitting that your issues with it are all subjective. Won't hold my breath on everyone else.

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zPRBW7k.gif

 

 

 

At least you're admitting that your issues with it are all subjective. Won't hold my breath on everyone else.

I don't consider them subjective issues if the objective best way to play the map is just sit on the top and spawn cycle.  That's quantifiable and provable.

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I’ve won derelict games because I spawned near rockets up top in the beginning of the game. I would take the map more seriously if literally every power up and weapon in the game isn’t up top. Camo snipe in rocket tunnel is practically a free running riot. And the only way to safely get back control is to get a random and pray the camo+os snipe guy isn’t looking. It’s like putting camo, rockets, os, and snipe on top of construct in h3. The only reason that map is playable is because of CE killtimes, then again playable doesn’t equal good.

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Lol no it doesn't, it creates the same gameplay scenarios as Prisoner and Hang Em. Player from top team must drop to get the all-important camo and then quickly scamper back up top.

 

It's remarkable that a map as boring and frustrating and miserable for poor wittle bottom team has been a mainstay in the Halo 1 rotation for 16 years now. There must be some real masochists out there!

It’s still fun and unique. Don’t twist my words. But it could be better. On most cycles, less than a quarter of the time is anything really in danger of changing hands, and the options for doing so are limited, dangerous and predictable. It takes a mistake by the camo player, a great and early melt on the OS player, AND bottom spawns off a 2 down for bottom team to retake control most of the time, and they still have to stay alive long enough for next powerups. A lot of shit has to go right in a row for control to shift. Camo on bottom alleviates that.

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@@MultiLockOn holding top control is hardly brainless. There’s actually a lot of pressure to not make any mistakes. If OS guy walks in front of 2 pistols or walks over a nade early in the minute, it’s gonna be tough to stay alive until the next one. That puts a ton of pressure on the camo guy to have perfect shot choice and perfect accuracy. If his partner dies he needs to think about giving him a top spawn. If he grabbed camo on spawn then he’s naked up there for 15 seconds prior to spawn. He needs to be vigilant of enemy top spawns.

 

Being camo guy up top is fun, but there is crazy pressure walk that tightrope and be perfect. Camo guy is the anchor to top control. If he chooses a bad shot and lights himself, it’s gonna be a coin flip for map control leading into the next cycle. One bad choice with camo could lead to a massive run for the other team. So against good teams, it’s certainly not brainless.

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That's crazy to me. The only thing I can think of is that, since they are not widely available, most players have no experience on them (myself included) and feel at a disadvantage. While that's true, it's a new map in CE! How could you not want to play on it a bunch?

There's a couple of things. There are many people stuck in their ways. They enjoy playing the same 5 maps over and over because they have come to love them. Also some people only get to play at 2 lans a year, so they want to get in the games they want, not play around on the new ones. And like you said, it's not fun playing on the new maps when you and ur teammate know nothing and the other team just seems like they're gimmicking their way to victory.

 

New maps grow popular in groups where people lan every single week. They play the new ones to spice things up.

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I don't consider them subjective issues if the objective best way to play the map is just sit on the top and spawn cycle. That's quantifiable and provable.

 

Lol I love how you gave objective reasons as to why it's not good, and this is the exact moment he chooses to claim all of your reasons are subjective. Again, trolling.

 

Compared to Hang Em and Prisoner, yeah it's pretty boring how the teams don't really have to make any interesting decisions or are able to express unique strategies. Like in Pris some teams will go all out aggressive and drop for rockets and camo, while other teams prefer to sit on OS or snipe tower all game. And Hang Em again some teams like to push for camo while other teams just bait it. Or you can nade all the powerups and snipe and rockets to give yourself an edge.

 

Dere is mostly just camp on top and pick off spawners while cycling around for weapons and powerups. And bottom just tries to get randoms to top and aggressively push to regain control. There's almost no variability in strategy and a lot of it comes down to if you just have a God tier pistol and can shoot your way out of the problem or get some lucky nades.

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Map cycling is one of the premier reasons that H1 >>>>>>>>> H2. 

 

Derelict is NOT an example of map cycling, except when camo was put on bottom. 

 

Why do we love Damnation? Because the fucking rockets are on the fucking bottom and because camo can be naded. Otherwise it would be a complete piece of shit. 

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Map cycling is one of the premier reasons that H1 >>>>>>>>> H2.

 

Derelict is NOT an example of map cycling, except when camo was put on bottom.

 

Why do we love Damnation? Because the fucking rockets are on the fucking bottom and because camo can be naded. Otherwise it would be a complete piece of shit.

Id argue damnation still is shit

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Dude if you couldn't nade camo on damnation that map would get really bad really fast. Its one of those weird moments where the map is pretty much total garbage and then weapon/power up nades save the day and its actually good. That map is like THE example of why CE was amazing.

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I would say Damnations balance rests on an EXTREMELY delicate fulcrum that is saved not even by the geo but the weapons and their placement. Absolutely a case of being saved by the weapons.

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'Halo 5 Guardians Discussion'  about anything else because Halo 5 is a dead game.

 

So dead, in fact, that the Team Beyond Think Tank is now begging for Derelict camo to be moved down bottom because map cycling. Never mind the fact that this turns the map into a shitty knockoff of Prisoner. Never mind the fact that Insidi0us and apparently cT did this years ago and it died off because nobody liked playing it. Never mind the fact that the diversity of scenarios across different maps (in a game with only 8 weapons, 2 grenades, and 2 powerups that all appear on most major maps) is probably the main reason for Halo 1's replayability after a good decade and a half.

 

And now apparently Damnation's a bad map too. Keep running on those hamster wheels, guys. 

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