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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I'm talking purely about gameplay.

 

Its not about MMOs or that style in particular as I love Borderlands, which looked at in a vacuum is a similar premise.

 

There's something about the lack of life in Destiny and Warframe AI that just makes them boring to kill over and over that isn't present in Borderlands.

AI in games today pisses me off. It's one of the few places in gaming where you can objectively say development has gotten worse or completely stalled. But what really irritates me is that that's not the fault of game devs.

 

http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/76972636953/game-development-myths-players-want-smart

 

Turns out this is actually a situation where you can blame casual gamers.

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AI in games today pisses me off. It's one of the few places in gaming where you can objectively say development has gotten worse or completely stalled. But what really irritates me is that that's not the fault of game devs.

 

http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/76972636953/game-development-myths-players-want-smart

 

Turns out this is actually a situation where you can blame casual gamers.

That's not what I took from that piece at all and I agree with everything he says.

 

The AI in games like Destiny and Warframe are boring because they are easy to kill, not becuase they are literally stupid (which to be fair was poor wording on my part).

 

If I compare Destiny AI to Halo AI, I can think of plenty of similarities in their flanking and behaviour.

 

The issue with Destiny (and Warframe) AI is that they aren't a threat. They are almost all trash tier mobs (grunts/jackals) that die quickly, move sluggishly and kill you slowly.

 

Destiny and Warframe are like playing a prequel movie where the Jedi are invincible gods against machines *designed specifically for combat*. I never feel in danger so the combat is without weight.

 

It's hard to buy that the Vex are super powerful when I can take on 20 at time and not even struggle.

 

I'm not asking for super tactical AI that have the the art of war and decades of combat experiance programmed into them, I'm asking for AI that can do more than tickle me.

 

Instead of 20 sluggish Vex that individually tickle me, give me 10 somewhat evasive Vex who can actually kill me 1 on 1 so I have to pick my battles. Give them slower projectiles that I can dodge. MAKE ME FEEL ENGAGED IN THE COMBAT.

 

20 grunts on easy Vs 10 skirmishers on heroic, what would be more engaging to play against? I think it's a simple answer.

 

Furthermore, what Halo (and Borderlands) got right was the variety. you have the sluggish fodder in grunts, the evasive fodder (skirmishers/drones/jackals), the "tanks" (Hunters, Cheiftans, Generals), the jack of all trades (Elites/Brutes) and so on. On top of that, different enemy ranks have different abilities and evasive levels.

 

Destiny and Warframe mostly have grunts, grunts with more health then grunts with even more health and a shield.

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I'm a big fan of AI-controlled enemies that can be defeated quickly if you get into a flow. Halo 1 does it really well, in part because of the weapons. You don't have constant access to an easy hitscan rifle. On Legendary the Covenant have really powerful weapons, but you can also dodge pretty effectively. There's evidence that players believe stronger AI are smarter. You can make the AI satisfying to defeat by making them appear smart, but not to the point of frustration. For instance, in at least the old Halo games, the AI is programmed not to be as tough when you're trying to run away or hide. They're not relentless.

 

Side note: I've believed for a long time that loadout customization or classes make every scenario less fun than it could be in multiplayer because you can't design optimally around multiple weapons and abilities. I've never played Destiny, but maybe the ability to customize your playstyle increases the rate at which you habituate to fighting the enemies in single player.

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AI in games today pisses me off. It's one of the few places in gaming where you can objectively say development has gotten worse or completely stalled. But what really irritates me is that that's not the fault of game devs.

 

http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/76972636953/game-development-myths-players-want-smart

 

Turns out this is actually a situation where you can blame casual gamers.

casual gamers are scapegoats, we all know the real culprits are hardcore gamers who yell at devs on forums and make them mentally unstable because they can't find the power button on their macbook air

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grindy shooters shouldn't be a thing tbh, shooters are already bad enough lfkmgdfkmg

I'm genuinely interested in what the hall is going on in your banner pic, and would like to politely request a higher res version of it

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AI in games today pisses me off. It's one of the few places in gaming where you can objectively say development has gotten worse or completely stalled. But what really irritates me is that that's not the fault of game devs.

 

http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/76972636953/game-development-myths-players-want-smart

 

Turns out this is actually a situation where you can blame casual gamers.

I actually think he missed the point. Intelligent AI is an added layer of complexity that players must overcome in order to be successful- and success is part of the feedback loop for enjoyment.

 

If a new player is confronted with that complexity, but doesn’t possess the tools to to overcome it (they haven’t learned that AI flanking is a thing), then it becomes a barrier to entry.

 

They threw in a bunch of audio clues to try to refocus the players attention, but it’s ends up being added noise to a player who’s already overstimulated by the decoy.

 

I think what halo CE did well, was TEACH players overtime, how complex the AI was, rather than punish players who didn’t know. For example, at lower difficulty levels, the AI would be less accurate if you were unware of there presence. You’d see their projectile weaponry splashing around you, and without dying, you’d learn that you should have been more aware. Things like that PLUS the distinct behaviors for different enemy types went a long way.

 

It also doesn’t help, that most games these days have really low TTKs.

 

IMO the better solution would be 1) keep the same complex AI at all levels of play. 2) use lower difficulty settings to teach players how to engage the AI.

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I actually think he missed the point. Intelligent AI is an added layer of complexity that players must overcome in order to be successful- and success is part of the feedback loop for enjoyment.

 

If a new player is confronted with that complexity, but doesn’t possess the tools to to overcome it (they haven’t learned that AI flanking is a thing), then it becomes a barrier to entry.

 

They threw in a bunch of audio clues to try to refocus the players attention, but it’s ends up being added noise to a player who’s already overstimulated by the decoy.

 

I think what halo CE did well, was TEACH players overtime, how complex the AI was, rather than punish players who didn’t know. For example, at lower difficulty levels, the AI would be less accurate if you were unware of there presence. You’d see their projectile weaponry splashing around you, and without dying, you’d learn that you should have been more aware. This like that PLUS the distinct behaviors for different enemy types went a long way.

 

It also doesn’t help, that most games have really low TTKs.

 

IMO the better solution would be 1) keep the same complex AI at all levels of play. 2) use lower difficulty settings to teach players how to enguage the AI.

I feel like elites and grunts were way more aggressive about finishing kills on Legendary than they were on Heroic.

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In h5 they made aiming super unresponsive. 2nd they made it so there’s a delay in aiming on a thrusting player. You can’t track them. Haha what bs way to make sure it’s effective.

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I feel like elites and grunts were way more aggressive about finishing kills on Legendary than they were on Heroic.

They definately were. They’d make similar decisions on both difficulty levels, but in Legendary their accuracy would be higher.

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There's a pretty good GDC talk from Jaime Griesemer about how the design of the Halo campaigns kind of revolved around the plasma rifle: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014704/Design-in-Detail-Tuning-the . Lots of little tidbits plus some points that make you think about modern Halo in comparison. I took some notes on it a while ago in case people want the highlights--I was looking for some good quotes from a Halo designer to put in a giant post of mine I never finished. I also included some notes from a GDC talk about the sniper rifle RoF change from H2 to H3, and the quotes are pretty golden when you think about H5.

 

 

Design in Detail: Tuning the Muzzle Velocity of the Plasma Rifle Bolt on Legendary Difficulty Across the HALO Franchise

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014704/Design-in-Detail-Tuning-the

 

  • Tuning is crafting fun and has nothing to do with balance, which has nothing to do with fun.

  • “Looking back on Halo, we could have named it ‘Plasma Rifle’ because that’s what it was all about.”

  • Three R’s for Fun Activities

    • Reactive: requires participation, which requires interactivity

    • Repeatable: is not too much the victim of habituation, the “gradual reduction in sensitivity to a repeated stimulus.”

    • Reliable: always fun every time for as many people as possible

  • Fun activities: pattern matching, predicting systems, rate of change, path-planning, neural plasticity (new connections), theory of mind (yomi)

  • Mechanics divide the game into allowed and prohibited actions

  • Field of View is narrow so that projectiles are easier to track (interesting, but is this reason or result?)

  • In Halo CE campaign: the plasma bolts were tuned to travel at 12 wups, which was too slow in retrospect because they could always be dodged as the Elites did not lead shots and did not track. Players fought out in the open all the time.

  • In H1 multiplayer, movement stun was added because of the weapon’s poor effectiveness at range, but this was found to be annoying and conflicting with “Halo’s flavor”

  • Context of Halo 2’s competition: almost all shooters had instant projectiles, encouraging the player to fight from cover

  • The “Human Pistol” (H1) was seen as unbalanced but very popular as an instant projectile weapon, and Legendary consisted of fighting from cover (hence Halo 2’s Carbine and increased emphasis on cover-based fighting)

  • Solution to satisfy desire for competence and the dodging problem: make the Plasma Pistol dodgeable, make the Plasma Rifle force players into cover, and increase plasma bolt speed with campaign difficulty. Grunts’ attack decisions are intentionally simplified, whereas Elites lead shots and act more tactically. Halo 2 removed visible health to encourage players to get back in cover, but the shield recharge time was decreased because hiding behind cover was boring. Halo 2’s campaign difficulty was not calibrated very carefully because AI and object counts were cut dramatically late in development, so base plasma speed was increased to 15 wups. PR/SMG dual wield and overcharge were seen as completely broken.

  • Halo 3’s competition context: cover systems are everywhere. But this did not fit because Halo was known for free-flowing combat, dodging, sidestepping, and covering. “We figured that our audience was established enough that we could sort of start ignoring the competition and going our own way.”

  • “Games are constrained activities that reliably meet the exotelic [player skills are being used to accomplish something] aspirations for a specific audience.”

  • In Halo 3, enemy projectiles start out slow and then accelerate. This is faster when the player uses these weapons, as well as the ramp-up time for rate of fire. Harder difficulties make the firing behavior of the AI faster, not significantly more powerful. The AI is designed with reciprocal difficulty that pushes back dynamically and proportionally (risk vs reward). End PR speed: 14 wups after acceleration--75% faster on Legendary and in multiplayer.

  • Halo Reach’s context of competition: Modern Warfare 2. Half of the team was hired after Halo 3 shipped, so Reach was essentially created by the community; the developers “were very in tune with what the community wanted, hence Spartans vs Elites, etc.”

  • Reach: “Plasma Rifle’s purpose is to disable the shields of close to medium range opponents.”

  • Balance is about longevity, tuning is about having fun.

 

Design in Detail: Changing the Time between Shots for the Sniper Rifle from 0.5 to 0.7 seconds

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1012211/Design-in-Detail-Changing-the

 

  • Balance is longevity: if it didn’t last, it wasn’t balanced.

    • “The game can be played indefinitely without developer intervention” (from Plasma Rifle talk)

  • Balance requires real strengths; if you have to explain it, it’s not a strength.

  • Get the player into the flow state.

    • Exaggerate important information or parts of the theme, minimize all else.

  • There must be a balance between predictability and randomness.

    • If it is too predictable, then there is only one choice.

    • If it is too random, then there is no basis for a choice.

  • The player desires competence and will try to increase it because of a positive internal feedback loop, which happens because it is possible to get good at and improve (at using the Sniper, for instance).

  • Don’t balance reactively

  • Do not design by committee

 

 

 

I think I did this right after the semester ended, so I was still in note-taking mode.

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There's a pretty good GDC talk from Jaime Griesemer about how the design of the Halo campaigns kind of revolved around the plasma rifle: http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014704/Design-in-Detail-Tuning-the . Lots of little tidbits plus some points that make you think about modern Halo in comparison. I took some notes on it a while ago in case people want the highlights--I was looking for some good quotes from a Halo designer to put in a giant post of mine I never finished. I also included some notes from a GDC talk about the sniper rifle RoF change from H2 to H3, and the quotes are pretty golden when you think about H5.

 

 

Design in Detail: Tuning the Muzzle Velocity of the Plasma Rifle Bolt on Legendary Difficulty Across the HALO Franchise

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014704/Design-in-Detail-Tuning-the

 

  • Tuning is crafting fun and has nothing to do with balance, which has nothing to do with fun.

  • “Looking back on Halo, we could have named it ‘Plasma Rifle’ because that’s what it was all about.”

  • Three R’s for Fun Activities

    • Reactive: requires participation, which requires interactivity

    • Repeatable: is not too much the victim of habituation, the “gradual reduction in sensitivity to a repeated stimulus.”

    • Reliable: always fun every time for as many people as possible

  • Fun activities: pattern matching, predicting systems, rate of change, path-planning, neural plasticity (new connections), theory of mind (yomi)

  • Mechanics divide the game into allowed and prohibited actions

  • Field of View is narrow so that projectiles are easier to track (interesting, but is this reason or result?)

  • In Halo CE campaign: the plasma bolts were tuned to travel at 12 wups, which was too slow in retrospect because they could always be dodged as the Elites did not lead shots and did not track. Players fought out in the open all the time.

  • In H1 multiplayer, movement stun was added because of the weapon’s poor effectiveness at range, but this was found to be annoying and conflicting with “Halo’s flavor”

  • Context of Halo 2’s competition: almost all shooters had instant projectiles, encouraging the player to fight from cover

  • The “Human Pistol” (H1) was seen as unbalanced but very popular as an instant projectile weapon, and Legendary consisted of fighting from cover (hence Halo 2’s Carbine and increased emphasis on cover-based fighting)

  • Solution to satisfy desire for competence and the dodging problem: make the Plasma Pistol dodgeable, make the Plasma Rifle force players into cover, and increase plasma bolt speed with campaign difficulty. Grunts’ attack decisions are intentionally simplified, whereas Elites lead shots and act more tactically. Halo 2 removed visible health to encourage players to get back in cover, but the shield recharge time was decreased because hiding behind cover was boring. Halo 2’s campaign difficulty was not calibrated very carefully because AI and object counts were cut dramatically late in development, so base plasma speed was increased to 15 wups. PR/SMG dual wield and overcharge were seen as completely broken.

  • Halo 3’s competition context: cover systems are everywhere. But this did not fit because Halo was known for free-flowing combat, dodging, sidestepping, and covering. “We figured that our audience was established enough that we could sort of start ignoring the competition and going our own way.”

  • “Games are constrained activities that reliably meet the exotelic [player skills are being used to accomplish something] aspirations for a specific audience.”

  • In Halo 3, enemy projectiles start out slow and then accelerate. This is faster when the player uses these weapons, as well as the ramp-up time for rate of fire. Harder difficulties make the firing behavior of the AI faster, not significantly more powerful. The AI is designed with reciprocal difficulty that pushes back dynamically and proportionally (risk vs reward). End PR speed: 14 wups after acceleration--75% faster on Legendary and in multiplayer.

  • Halo Reach’s context of competition: Modern Warfare 2. Half of the team was hired after Halo 3 shipped, so Reach was essentially created by the community; the developers “were very in tune with what the community wanted, hence Spartans vs Elites, etc.”

  • Reach: “Plasma Rifle’s purpose is to disable the shields of close to medium range opponents.”

  • Balance is about longevity, tuning is about having fun.

Design in Detail: Changing the Time between Shots for the Sniper Rifle from 0.5 to 0.7 seconds

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1012211/Design-in-Detail-Changing-the

  • Balance is longevity: if it didn’t last, it wasn’t balanced.

    • “The game can be played indefinitely without developer intervention” (from Plasma Rifle talk)

  • Balance requires real strengths; if you have to explain it, it’s not a strength.

  • Get the player into the flow state.

    • Exaggerate important information or parts of the theme, minimize all else.

  • There must be a balance between predictability and randomness.

    • If it is too predictable, then there is only one choice.

    • If it is too random, then there is no basis for a choice.

  • The player desires competence and will try to increase it because of a positive internal feedback loop, which happens because it is possible to get good at and improve (at using the Sniper, for instance).

  • Don’t balance reactively

  • Do not design by committee

 

 

I think I did this right after the semester ended, so I was still in note-taking mode.

a lot of that hurt me.
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GLL destroys 343 shill numbskull and clueless halo pros:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJWTen7KtJc&t=2061s

This guys a fucking moron. At 35 he’s like wrong! No the pros were right about that. Br starts we’re what most of the community wanted. Ok now here’s a statement I’m going to make right now. If you as a consumer make no feedback,’dont Go on social media, the forums, etc etc, then your opinion does not fucking matter! It is trash! This guys rant is on about why pros get a say, well clearly he didn’t watch greens video because they obviously don’t . A pro knows everything about halo, especially better than some dumb fuck casual who can’t even figure out how to use the damn radar. Most of this feedback was directed more towards the pros hcs playlist but because 343 wants pro settings and regular to be universal, this causes a problem. The Br starts was something in h2&3 that those who played ranked and btb wanted! This guys credibility went out the window when he thinks anyone who plays a game competitively is some loser. Yes he said that. No they’re not no life’s. Sure they should have polls but most of you dumb ass casuals never give feedback period. And when you do it’s always “the pistol is over powered(even though you still need skill to aim with it which is why it’s strong)” or “i like sprin( giving absolutely why no good reason for the liking of sprint but would still play halo regardless if it didn’t have sprint)”. The pros were casuals too once, they just decided to become more then the guy who runs in a straight line Ar’ing the guy from across the map. They know what works and what doesn’t work. They have a better and no pro or competitive player ever asked for these abilities. We’re the ones who wanted them completely fucking gone! 343 wanted a compromise between new and old fans. The gameplay is completely different from classic but equal starts equals classic halo? Tf 343!? You lying mother fuckers. Going back to halos roots. What halo game were you talking about? Surely not 1-3 that’s blatantly obvious. Ninja has stopped playing halo entirely because it’s not fun competitively or casually. And that guy would bring in the views for halo tournaments. The moment his team was playing like 20k viewers plus just entered. He kept the halo twitch channel above 1k viewers. Now it’s lucky to hit 500
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GLL destroys 343 shill numbskull and clueless halo pros:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJWTen7KtJc&t=2061s

50:00 is where I agree. Fuck you spartan because he is 100% right. Pros will play anything if the $ is being offered. Pros complained like myself about heavy aim and those on TB here and YET! Pros still play with that unbalanced unfair bs! Half the fan base left because they know their feedback was ignored. I bet most of us here don’t even play h5 anymore or play it every now and then.
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50:00 is where I agree. Fuck you spartan because he is 100% right. Pros will play anything if the $ is being offered. Pros complained like myself about heavy aim and those on TB here and YET! Pros still play with that unbalanced unfair bs! Half the fan base left because they know their feedback was ignored. I bet most of us here don’t even play h5 anymore or play it every now and then.

I mean he isn’t right at all. Pro’s will play the game because they enjoy competing in Halo. But the vast majority of competitive players, pro’s included, don’t like the game, and have been asking for a return to classic halo since Halo4. The notion that most pros will play anything, doesn’t jive with the fact that most competitive players left the franchise completely since Reach.

 

The guy is just a grating personality. He considers Halo: Reach and Halo4 classic Halo, so he bashes pros who almost unanimously want a return to H:CE-3 gameplay and actually ignores the fact that most share his opinion on 343s decision making and direction.

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AI in games today pisses me off. It's one of the few places in gaming where you can objectively say development has gotten worse or completely stalled. But what really irritates me is that that's not the fault of game devs.

 

http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/76972636953/game-development-myths-players-want-smart

 

Turns out this is actually a situation where you can blame casual gamers.

What game was this?

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I don't know what is worse, xGLLx videos or the comments on his videos.

 

Him and his entire fanbase are the comical stereotype of a "343 hater" that just hurt the community as they spout incoherent and illogical misinformation due to a total lack of understanding of what they are outraged about.

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This guy might actuall be the worst YouTuber I have ever had the displeasure of seeing. Please do not ever link this absolute moron ever again. Jesus Christ what an annoying fucking tard.

Dude, no joke. I wanted to say what you just said but didn't want to come off as rude, but holy hell is that dude annoying as fuck listening to.

 

Dude calls "foookin bullshit" that Halo Reach split the playerbase. Even calls him a ******. Umm, Halo Reach DID split the playerbase. Fuck this dude is so wrong about almost literally everything.

 

Edit: "'What the pros want' is how we got Halo 5."  LOLOL!!!

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Dude, no joke. I wanted to say what you just said but didn't want to come off as rude, but holy hell is that dude annoying as fuck listening to.

I couldn't make it past 5 minutes man. I cannot believe he even has any sort of following. Well I mean I can but still. And an hour and a half? Come on now what the hell lmao.
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I couldn't make it past 5 minutes man. I cannot believe he even has any sort of following. Well I mean I can but still. And an hour and a half? Come on now what the hell lmao.

Watch his arguments with Favyn if you wanna waste some time and some braincells when you are short on cash.

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I'm talking purely about gameplay.

 

Its not about MMOs or that style in particular as I love Borderlands, which looked at in a vacuum is a similar premise.

 

There's something about the lack of life in Destiny and Warframe AI that just makes them boring to kill over and over that isn't present in Borderlands.

 

What? So the endless grind is fine, but the gameplay needs to be on par with BRODERLANDS? Seriously? That's the bar? Memerlands is one of the worst FEELING FPS games I have ever played. No weapon has impact. Audio/visual feedback is terrible. The random recoil patterns are excessive and nonsensical., Movement is slow and floaty (like a shitty knock-off of a bad Halo game). The console aim system blows. And the AI is awful, emerging endlessly from doorways and holes in the ground and doing exactly nothing smart. just like modern Bungie AI. If anything, Destiny is Grinderlands if it was made by a more competent studio (complete lack of content at launch aside). Without the loot skinner box format, no one would waste their time with Borederlands.

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I'm at work so I'm still watching this idiot's video, he just said no one liked the TU update for Reach. Okay, is he just trolling?

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