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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Yeah. I mean, none of this shit should be hard, but it seems to be for some reason?

If there is anything 343 is good at, it's their capability to lower people's standards. 

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I’m all for not allowing grenades to get stuck in unintended gaps in geometry but isn’t the distinction between a ramp and stairs, in relation to grenade bouncing, that it is possible on the former and impossible on the latter? Isn’t that intentional map design?

I really doubt designers want grenades to get stuck in random places. When it comes to ramps vs stairs, I think 343 was making aesthetics choices that have unintended functional consequences.

 

They just really like details, even at the expense of gameplay. That's why you'll occasionally strafe random protrusions or stare into a blinding light when trying to shoot someone.

 

Iirc, I think I remember a scene from a Sprint where a map designer wanted geometry a certain way for the sake of grenades, and he got rolled by the art team because they didn't think it would look appealing

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I really doubt designers want grenades to get stuck in random places. When it comes to ramps vs stairs, I think 343 was making aesthetics choices that have unintended functional consequences.

 

They just really like details, even at the expense of gameplay. That's why you'll occasionally strafe random protrusions or stare into a blinding light when trying to shoot someone.

 

Iirc, I think I remember a scene from a Sprint where a map designer wanted geometry a certain way for the sake of grenades, and he got rolled by the art team because they didn't think it would look appealing

 

That's a piss poor excuse. There is no sane reason why collision needs to be exactly 1 to 1 with the geometry. It absolutely SHOULD be simpler, so that it behaves consistently and predictably, instead of what we get in Halo 5 where rockets and grenades bounce off of tiny bumps and get eaten by miniscule cracks and players are constantly bumping into non-functional geometry. And if, for some bizarre reason, they have to map collisions to the geometry 1 to 1, they should cut back on the obnoxious visual noise. The art team can fuck off. It's a game, not a painting.

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That's a piss poor excuse. There is no sane reason why collision needs to be exactly 1 to 1 with the geometry. It absolutely SHOULD be simpler, so that it behaves consistently and predictably, instead of what we get in Halo 5 where rockets and grenades bounce off of tiny bumps and get eaten by miniscule cracks and players are constantly bumping into non-functional geometry. And if, for some bizarre reason, they have to map collisions to the geometry 1 to 1, they should cut back on the obnoxious visual noise. The art team can fuck off. It's a game, not a painting.

 

To be fair, Bungie started this. Coming off of CE and H2, H3 was a grenade nightmare. 

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That's a piss poor excuse. There is no sane reason why collision needs to be exactly 1 to 1 with the geometry. It absolutely SHOULD be simpler, so that it behaves consistently and predictably, instead of what we get in Halo 5 where rockets and grenades bounce off of tiny bumps and get eaten by miniscule cracks and players are constantly bumping into non-functional geometry. And if, for some bizarre reason, they have to map collisions to the geometry 1 to 1, they should cut back on the obnoxious visual noise. The art team can fuck off. It's a game, not a painting.

Your preaching to the choir...

 

Of course it’s a piss poor excuse. gameplay first.

 

I’m just saying it seems to me that someone at 343 believes their (ugly) art is at least AS important as functionality which occasional leads to designers getting rolled.

 

And even if they include this detailed geometry, there should be invisible planes over everything so that physics can be predictable.

 

 

I’m responding to Boyo, who suggested that these things are happening the way map designers intended. I strongly doubt that. I think they don’t know enough about how players want to play to understand the importance of these details- which allows art to win when they should have no bearing.

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To be fair, Bungie started this. Coming off of CE and H2, H3 was a grenade nightmare. 

 

CE environment geometry and collision was beautiful. That was also the best part of H5 forge before they added tons of obnoxious, cosmetic garbage and tanked performance. Smooth, simple, readable geometry. I miss that.

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CE environment geometry and collision was beautiful. That was also the best part of H5 forge before they added tons of obnoxious, cosmetic garbage and tanked performance. Smooth, simple, readable geometry. I miss that.

 

I think that it's actually more of a testament to an artist if they can make FUNCTIONAL artwork for a game rather than complex artwork. The latter is much easier than the former. I also don't understand the boner recent Halo games have for the "futuristic Human garbage colony" theme.

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I think that it's actually more of a testament to an artist if they can make FUNCTIONAL artwork for a game rather than complex artwork. The latter is much easier than the former. I also don't understand the boner recent Halo games have for the "futuristic Human garbage colony" theme.

Cluttered visual design and geometry is a general trend in all map design now, not just Halo.

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Only if you've lost some health. A Halo 1 frag will never 1 shot someone at full health and shields.

 

This is the exact opposite of my experience.

 

My mistake. I still maintain my position that the fuse timer has a huge impact on the skill requirement for the grenades. It's much easier for spammed grenades to be problematic with the one-bounce timer of later Halo games.

You play without full health a lot in hce so the nades one shot you.

 

As for #2 I dont even know what to say. Ce nades are often referred to as mini nukes and 2/3 nades are called firecrackers.

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The more details you have the less individual details actually stand out.  Your eye frantically darts between hundreds of small details and doesn't actually process any of them.  The obsession over complexity is counter-productive to good art design.

 

Look at this image.

 

The lighting is neutral.  Players are not blinded by bloom, nor do they struggle to see people in sharp shadows.  Everything is clearly, properly illuminated.

 

The walls aren't boring flat colors, but nor are they so detailed that they become distracting from the other aesthetic properties of the room.

 

The play space is entirely clear of debris and consists of flat surfaces. 

 

Props are placed out of the way of combat, and they are very carefully placed.  There are just enough to give the room a sense of personality, but not so many that they become individually unrecognizable.  Players can easily recognize every single cosmetic prop in the area without having to strain their eyes.

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The more details you have the less individual details actually stand out.  Your eye frantically darts between hundreds of small details and doesn't actually process any of them.  The obsession over complexity is counter-productive to good art design.

 

Look at this image.

 

The lighting is neutral.  Players are not blinded by bloom, nor do they struggle to see people in sharp shadows.  Everything is clearly, properly illuminated.

 

The walls aren't boring flat colors, but nor are they so detailed that they become distracting from the other aesthetic properties of the room.

 

The play space is entirely clear of debris and consists of flat surfaces. 

 

Props are placed out of the way of combat, and they are very carefully placed.  There are just enough to give the room a sense of personality, but not so many that they become individually unrecognizable.  Players can easily recognize every single cosmetic prop in the area without having to strain their eyes.

 

This kind of hyper-detailed, eye vomit art style is blatantly pandering to the kind of gamer that gets excited about 4k 30fps gaming and whines about how the latest CoD doesn't look "next gen" enough. So, you know, your average gamer.

 

​I would also point to CS:GO as a more "realistic" example of art direction that is clear, functional, and doesn't make your eyes bleed. Coincidently, also Valve.

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The more details you have the less individual details actually stand out.  Your eye frantically darts between hundreds of small details and doesn't actually process any of them.  The obsession over complexity is counter-productive to good art design.

 

Look at this image.

 

The lighting is neutral.  Players are not blinded by bloom, nor do they struggle to see people in sharp shadows.  Everything is clearly, properly illuminated.

 

The walls aren't boring flat colors, but nor are they so detailed that they become distracting from the other aesthetic properties of the room.

 

The play space is entirely clear of debris and consists of flat surfaces. 

 

Props are placed out of the way of combat, and they are very carefully placed.  There are just enough to give the room a sense of personality, but not so many that they become individually unrecognizable.  Players can easily recognize every single cosmetic prop in the area without having to strain their eyes.

https://youtu.be/2zE-J1rK1NQ?t=19s

 

Once again, our lord and savior Dunkey speaks the truth.

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Good on the guys carrying the torch and calling people out on their bullshit. Keep up the good fight.

 

Love,

 

Dev.

 

havent been here for a minute

 

aiming fixed?

 

No. 

 

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https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/news/weapon-tuning-update

 

I'm sure you'll all be happy to know that grenade blast radius was reduced by 25% given the current conversation.

 

I still can't believe that they did a weapon rebalance and left the fucking storm rifle as it is.

 

Actually, never mind, its 343, Of course I can believe it. it only took them 2 years to realise their sandbox needed rebalancing.

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The more details you have the less individual details actually stand out.  Your eye frantically darts between hundreds of small details and doesn't actually process any of them.  The obsession over complexity is counter-productive to good art design.

 

Look at this image.

 

The lighting is neutral.  Players are not blinded by bloom, nor do they struggle to see people in sharp shadows.  Everything is clearly, properly illuminated.

 

The walls aren't boring flat colors, but nor are they so detailed that they become distracting from the other aesthetic properties of the room.

 

The play space is entirely clear of debris and consists of flat surfaces. 

 

Props are placed out of the way of combat, and they are very carefully placed.  There are just enough to give the room a sense of personality, but not so many that they become individually unrecognizable.  Players can easily recognize every single cosmetic prop in the area without having to strain their eyes.

IIRC, people can typically only process something like 8-12 unique visual stimuli at once. When there are too many visual stimuli, brainwave activity actually changes. It’s kinda like, if you were a security guard, with a wall full of monitors in front of you, you could look at each one individually and give it your full attention or you could unfocus from one specific monitor and look at all the screens at once, but you can’t achieve the same level of understanding this way.

 

This happens with a lot of things. Go to a diner that has 60 items per page and your eyes glaze over unless you specifically focus on one item at a time. Go to a supermarket and as you walk down the aisles you kinda zone out unless you make the effort to focus on specific items.

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BR and Carbine spread is here to stay. Yay! Fucking hell, all they needed to do was reduce bullet magnetism, but here we are going back to the H3 BR. What a time to be alive.

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I still can't believe that they did a weapon rebalance and left the fucking storm rifle as it is.

 

Actually, never mind, its 343, Of course I can believe it. it only took them 2 years to realise their sandbox needed rebalancing.

Perhaps they realize it has no place in HCS and will leave it out.

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IIRC, people can typically only process something like 8-12 unique visual stimuli at once. When there are too many visual stimuli, brainwave activity actually changes. It’s kinda like, if you were a security guard, with a wall full of monitors in front of you, you could look at each one individually and give it your full attention or you could unfocus from one specific monitor and look at all the screens at once, but you can’t achieve the same level of understanding this way.

 

This happens with a lot of things. Go to a diner that has 60 items per page and your eyes glaze over unless you specifically focus on one item at a time. Go to a supermarket and as you walk down the aisles you kinda zone out unless you make the effort to focus on specific items.

 

Something similar is true of sound. Walter Murch suggested that five distinct layers of sound are the maximum number of audio layers an audience is capable of perceiving as both dense and clear. And that is assuming 5 layers "spread evenly across the conceptual spectrum." The audio systems in Overwatch are actually loosely built around this premise, prioritizing sounds and mixing them dynamically to ensure that high priority information (like a nearby enemy player nuking you) is clear. A very specific number of sounds can occupy each of the top two mix priority levels at any given time, while everything else is mixed lower.

 

​I think this is part of the reason the audio is Halo 5 is so fatiguing and annoying. It's a cacophony of conceptually similar, "hyper-real" sounds overlapping on a constant basis. Everything is clunky and metallic. Everything is loud. Even the sound of a body hitting the ground sounds like a truckload of metallic bricks falling from a 10 story building. I have to turn down the game volume for Halo 5 specifically.

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BR and Carbine spread is here to stay. Yay! Fucking hell, all they needed to do was reduce bullet magnetism, but here we are going back to the H3 BR. What a time to be alive.

As “anti-teambeyond” as this sounds, the minimal amount of spread added is fine to me. If you’re in the RRR, you’ll get a perfect kill. It’s the extreme distances where you won’t. While that will undoubtedly be frustrating as a user, I think it will make the game flow better in general. We’ll have to wait and see though.

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CE environment geometry and collision was beautiful. That was also the best part of H5 forge before they added tons of obnoxious, cosmetic garbage and tanked performance. Smooth, simple, readable geometry. I miss that.

Fuck yea me too man.

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As “anti-teambeyond” as this sounds, the minimal amount of spread added is fine to me. If you’re in the RRR, you’ll get a perfect kill. It’s the extreme distances where you won’t. While that will undoubtedly be frustrating as a user, I think it will make the game flow better in general. We’ll have to wait and see though.

 

It might work, but it's definitely a step in the wrong direction to go from perfectly accurate weapons (one of the few things H5 did right) back to H3 and Reach's randomness.

 

As I said, the only issue people seem to have with the Carbine and BR is the fact they are too good at range, which is only caused by their insane RRR and bullet magnetism. The Magnum sure as hell isn't too good at range and it shoots dead center across entire WZ maps. Why? Because it has the lowest bullet mag of all the rifles and the lowest RRR (not anymore post-patch IIRC though). It seems to me 343 is unaware just how easy mode the BR and Carbine are, so they are adding a band aim of randomness on top instead of turning off the aimbot. 

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