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CyReN

Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Wow.  14 hours and no new posts in here...  I miss the days of waking up, checking the forums, and having 6+ pages to catch up on in multiple threads.

:mj:  :mj:

I can't imagine why you guys don't attract outsiders to post here.

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people aren't talking about halo, period

 

r/halo is dead atm

beyond is dead atm

 

maybe waypoint is super active right now?  ;)

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I can't imagine why you guys don't attract outsiders to post here.

Everyone knows Halo is ded.  Has nothing to do with our condescending attitudes. 

Ok maybe a little to do with our attitudes.  ;)

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Damage falloff (and for that matter damage numbers) should absolutely be considered for H6 if we're going to keep using laser-accurate precision weapons.

 

Example of Damage Falloff at work (spitball idea, numbers can change and increments):

 

Green damage := 75% of regular weapon damage ; this is the cross-map damage you would see on open BTB maps. All weapons with zooms > than the magnum have this by default.

 

Yellow damage := The Magnum does yellow damage no matter what distance you're shooting from, which is great considering it's short RRR. This is where most weapons will see their use and will be defined particularly for what class that weapon will fall into.

 

Red Damage := Power Weapon damage and the damage of weapons that do not need range restrictions (like the grenade launcher).

 

This system could alleviate the balance issues present with overlapping weapons and allow for distinct roles to exist without compromising the enjoyment of a weapon due to random spread, shitty projectiles, etc.

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people aren't talking about halo, period

 

r/halo is dead atm

beyond is dead atm

 

maybe waypoint is super active right now?  ;)

 

If I hear "Halo is not relevant because of the current gaming climate, it has nothing to do with 343." one more time on the few active Halo communities, I'm going to rip my hair out.

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I can't imagine why you guys don't attract outsiders to post here.

 

I'm sure your excellent posts are what potential newcomers crave.

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W6Jn3r6.png

 

I'm seeing way too many comments like this lately, mostly because of the Weapon Tuning Update and the removal of Team Skirmish. And I have a bad feeling that 343 will use this kind of "feedback", the poor population of H5 and the popularity of Warzone to make H6 an even bigger autos and magnetism fest than H5.

 

Halo 5 is not popular with casuals, that's a fact. But blaming this on the competitive community and 343's catering towards competitive is just flat out wrong. Did the competitive community ask for fake social, zero gametype variety and a convoluted movement and control system? Did the competitive community ask for this garbage weapon tuning update? Hell no, all this shit was 343's idea.

 

This "casual vs competitive" war has been going on for at least a decade and it's so pointless. It's always the developer failing to meet both communities' demands, not the dev catering to one side too much. It's so easy to satisfy both casual and comp players in one stroke, and only very few aspects of the game require the dev to make a actual decision which side is more important. They just continue to fuck up, and the community blames each other instead of pointing out the real problems.

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Hows this h3 playlist?

 

Worth installing the game?

 

Wait, its 100 gigs. Nvm

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Hows this h3 playlist?

 

Worth installing the game?

 

Wait, its 100 gigs. Nvm

Nah, just play MCC/CE.  It the funnest Halo experience you can have on an xbox one IMO, even with all of it's major flaws. 

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The whole competitive vs casual is so frustrating because a good competitive game appeals to everyone.

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Hows this h3 playlist?

 

Worth installing the game?

 

Wait, its 100 gigs. Nvm

It’s not worth a 1 gig installation.
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Even playing against significantly worse players is a pain in the ass, because eventually even the biggest moron in the game is likely to get off a Spartan charge and knee cap you with their AR. There are few things more infuriating than getting into a fight with some dip-shit holding forward and spraying with an AR and knowing at a certain point that you absolutely are going to die because you missed one shot with your precision weapon.

Yeah, this is only exacerbated in the H3 playlist because you have no thrust to try and throw them off.

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Damage falloff (and for that matter damage numbers) should absolutely be considered for H6 if we're going to keep using laser-accurate precision weapons.

 

Example of Damage Falloff at work (spitball idea, numbers can change and increments):

 

Green damage := 75% of regular weapon damage ; this is the cross-map damage you would see on open BTB maps. All weapons with zooms > than the magnum have this by default.

 

Yellow damage := The Magnum does yellow damage no matter what distance you're shooting from, which is great considering it's short RRR. This is where most weapons will see their use and will be defined particularly for what class that weapon will fall into.

 

Red Damage := Power Weapon damage and the damage of weapons that do not need range restrictions (like the grenade launcher).

 

This system could alleviate the balance issues present with overlapping weapons and allow for distinct roles to exist without compromising the enjoyment of a weapon due to random spread, shitty projectiles, etc.

I hate damage falloff because it tips the scales towards rock-paper-scissors instead of skill.

 

If someone has the skill to crossmap someone across the map with a magnum, they should be able to. It should just be relatively hard to do.

 

I wish they'd just go back to projectiles. Let the speed of the bullet, ROF, and RRR dictate how efficient a gun is at each range.

 

Then on the PC version, they'd just turn off RR for non-homing weapons altogether.

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Halo 5 is the easiest Halo game. The only reason it might be "too competitive" to some is because the starting weapon is the hardest weapon to use in a sandbox that otherwise aims for you, and you need 20 fingers to move around the maps effectively. It's like Basketball where the hoop is lowered and you can travel, but the floor is frozen over and you're wearing flip flops. 

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Halo 5 is the easiest Halo game. The only reason it might be "too competitive" to some is because the starting weapon is the hardest weapon to use in a sandbox that otherwise aims for you, and you need 20 fingers to move around the maps effectively. It's like Basketball where the hoop is lowered and you can travel, but the floor is frozen over and you're wearing flip flops.

It's easy once you get over the hump of the convoluted controls. High skill floor + low skill ceiling = tiny skill gap. So every match feels like a sweat box.

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It's easy once you get over the hump of the convoluted controls. High skill floor + low skill ceiling = tiny skill gap. So every match feels like a sweat box.

 

Helljumper is the only way to play the game

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Damage falloff (and for that matter damage numbers) should absolutely be considered for H6 if we're going to keep using laser-accurate precision weapons.

 

Example of Damage Falloff at work (spitball idea, numbers can change and increments):

 

Green damage := 75% of regular weapon damage ; this is the cross-map damage you would see on open BTB maps. All weapons with zooms > than the magnum have this by default.

 

Yellow damage := The Magnum does yellow damage no matter what distance you're shooting from, which is great considering it's short RRR. This is where most weapons will see their use and will be defined particularly for what class that weapon will fall into.

 

Red Damage := Power Weapon damage and the damage of weapons that do not need range restrictions (like the grenade launcher).

 

This system could alleviate the balance issues present with overlapping weapons and allow for distinct roles to exist without compromising the enjoyment of a weapon due to random spread, shitty projectiles, etc.

 

I'd be down for damage numbers to replace hitmarkers, as they would elegantly solve the issue of weapon hitmarkers vs nade hitmarkers (you need a line of sight to see the damage number). Not a huge fan of damage falloff though, any why do we even need it? No weapon in Halo has too much range, it's just that it's either too effective outside it's indended range because of lack of spread, too much aim assist or both (AR, SMG, Sword) or it's just flat out too easy to use at a given range (Halo 5 rifles).

 

The funny part about this is that "competitive" players would generally agree that this game is absolutely awful to play casually. A big part of the reason casuals think it's the sweatiest game ever made is that the combination of the absolute mess of Spartan Abilities, winding, cluttered maps, and poor weapon balance is just STRESSFUL as hell. Even playing against significantly worse players is a pain in the ass, because eventually even the biggest moron in the game is likely to get off a Spartan charge and knee cap you with their AR. There are few things more infuriating than getting into a fight with some dip-shit holding forward and spraying with an AR and knowing at a certain point that you absolutely are going to die because you missed one shot with your precision weapon. Why else would so many casual players think it has lightning fast "CoD" kill times? It's because everyone flies around the map with weapons that never miss.

 

​H5 has a truly awful balance of skill gap compression and delusions of being a hyper competitive arena shooter that manages to piss off both camps with half-baked appeals to the other at nearly all times.

 

100% agree. H5 is very stressful to play, but not hard or particarly skillful. So many people confuse more button presses per minute with faster gameplay and it's fucking stupid.

 

The whole competitive vs casual is so frustrating because a good competitive game appeals to everyone.

 

Exactly. Truly great games don't compromise the skill gap to make the game more accessible, as it is absolutely unnecessary. Compressing the skill gap should be a last ditch effort (or not considered at all IMO) and not the first step to making a game more accessible.

 

What I've noticed is that people conflate having to "try hard" to win with being "competitive".

 

What they often fail to realize is that the shallow skill ceiling + the high skill floor in h5 is what makes it feel so sweaty at all levels of play.

 

I've debated it a ton on various sites and have FINALLY had a breakthrough with players who lament lack of casual fun to be had with h5. There was a guy complaining that weapon tuning was "Yet another" attempt to pander to esports at the expense of casuals. Here's how i responded:

 

 

I got a lot of PMs from folks who finally understood that it wasn't esports that killed their casual experience- it was design flaws.

 

Great post. A game with a wide skill gap and a decent ranking system would be fun to play for literally any segment of the market. It's sad to see we never had a Halo game that had both, MCC could've done it with the CE playlist and the H2 ranking system, but of course 343 had to ruin that.

 

Halo 5 is the easiest Halo game. The only reason it might be "too competitive" to some is because the starting weapon is the hardest weapon to use in a sandbox that otherwise aims for you, and you need 20 fingers to move around the maps effectively. It's like Basketball where the hoop is lowered and you can travel, but the floor is frozen over and you're wearing flip flops. 

 

Amazing analogy. H5 is such a weird game to learn. You're absolutely clueless and lost for the first 30 minutes, and from there you can fairly quickly start competing with people who have thousands of hours put into the game. The "easy to learn, hard to master" concept seems to be completely foreign to 343.

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I hate damage falloff because it tips the scales towards rock-paper-scissors instead of skill.

 

If someone has the skill to crossmap someone across the map with a magnum, they should be able to. It should just be relatively hard to do.

 

I wish they'd just go back to projectiles. Let the speed of the bullet, ROF, and RRR dictate how efficient a gun is at each range.

 

Then on the PC version, they'd just turn off RR for non-homing weapons altogether.

 

Precisely; damage falloff is a bad mechanism. The root of the problem is that it's too easy to land shots at range, like almost all of the problems in Halo games. Lower the aim assists and increase strafe speed: tada! You've just made weapons far less problematic at longer-ranges without adding confusing mechanisms or damage characteristics.

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All too often I see casual players confuse a stressful, poorly designed game environment for a "competitive" one (example, Destiny 2 is more "competitive" than Destiny 1). They can't tell the difference, and simply just lump the 2 concepts together assuming it's the same exact thing.

 

Same thing goes when balance comes into the conversation, and casuals assume it's the end all be all of what makes a competitive game, competitive. Even though fighting games and RTS's with their massive skillgaps, are inherently unbalanced by comparision.

 

People just can't, or won't, acknowledge that things are not always so cut and dry, and that just maybe they lack the necessary knowledge to truly judge a game's competitive merit.

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I seriously cannot miss a shot in the H3 playlist. Perfects everywhere. Jeeeeeez and I never play this game.

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Damage falloff (and for that matter damage numbers) should absolutely be considered for H6 if we're going to keep using laser-accurate precision weapons.

 

Example of Damage Falloff at work (spitball idea, numbers can change and increments):

 

Green damage := 75% of regular weapon damage ; this is the cross-map damage you would see on open BTB maps. All weapons with zooms > than the magnum have this by default.

 

Yellow damage := The Magnum does yellow damage no matter what distance you're shooting from, which is great considering it's short RRR. This is where most weapons will see their use and will be defined particularly for what class that weapon will fall into.

 

Red Damage := Power Weapon damage and the damage of weapons that do not need range restrictions (like the grenade launcher).

 

This system could alleviate the balance issues present with overlapping weapons and allow for distinct roles to exist without compromising the enjoyment of a weapon due to random spread, shitty projectiles, etc.

 

This would certainly help for maps like Deadlock, but I don't know if the whole game would benefit from this.

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