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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Was watching Hitch's vlog today (he's OpTic's videographer/vlogger for those who don't know) and he's going to see if Maniac and Flamesword would be down for playing in their local MS Store tournament

 

https://youtu.be/2cizxVnnhlg?t=3m33s

 

It'd be pretty cool - if only for the sentimental value - if he can pull it together!

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I mean for all of the things I love about Menke he did just say you should never be able to achieve Champ 1 without a team even though their entire ranking system is based on giving you an individual ranking and not a team ranking, in a team game, with most games being played against solo queue players or people with a less than full team. If that isn't a sign of quite a lot of inconsistent applications of logic then I don't know what is. Who fucking knows what they're doing or thinking over there

 

I have nothing but respect for Menke, and while I may not always agree with him (his views on the 1-50 system and hard party restictions) he usually has always explained his views well enough for me to understand where he's coming from.

 

But as you said, this "Champion #1 should require a to4" goes completely against the idea of ranking people individually. If I need a full team to get to the top, why not just rank teams instead of individuals? If a player is that good that he can carry his team to victory against any sort of opposing team, even the best and without relying on his squad, he deserves the #1 spot in my opinion.

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Honestly who knows. Maybe people just aren't willing to sit in a queue for Halo 5 and they instead back out and turn off their Xbox. Perhaps yet again something about MM is fucked up and the servers can't handle long wait times or something silly like that. They could even just be lying and they have something they internally decided was an unacceptable wait time and they refuse to go over that no matter what even if its fully capable of working.

 

I mean for all of the things I love about Menke he did just say you should never be able to achieve Champ 1 without a team even though their entire ranking system is based on giving you an individual ranking and not a team ranking, in a team game, with most games being played against solo queue players or people with a less than full team. If that isn't a sign of quite a lot of inconsistent applications of logic then I don't know what is. Who fucking knows what they're doing or thinking over there

I feel like people are totally mischaracterizing his comment.

 

Think about it from a purely mathematical standpoint. Let's say you are the best player in the game - Matchmaking's job is to assemble two teams that have an equal chance of winning the match. Ideally, no matter how good you are, your best chance of winning would be 50%- this is a defining characteristic of a "good match". This would typically mean you having some less talented players on your team than the opposing team- limiting your chances at moving up.

 

With that in mind- the only way to consistently boost your chances above 50% would be to have a team so good that the system struggles to find a team that can beat you 50% of the the time- allowing you to rank up. Sure, MM would put you in such a team occasionally, but it would also put you on the other side just as often.

 

He's not advocating for arbitrary blocks on soloQers getting top 1. He's just saying if population and MM were ideal doing so would be mathematically unlikely- because you'll still be losing as often as you are winning.

 

But as you said, this "Champion #1 should require a to4" goes completely against the idea of ranking people individually. If I need a full team to get to the top, why not just rank teams instead of individuals? If a player is that good that he can carry his team to victory against any sort of opposing team, even the best and without relying on his squad, he deserves the #1 spot in my opinion.

There's nothing stopping the top player from carrying himself to the top rank other than the fact that the people he's carrying against are probably too good to consistently handle on his own- since the MM system is aiming for a 50% win rate.
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He's not advocating for arbitrary blocks on soloQers getting top 1. He's just saying if population and MM were ideal doing so would be mathematically unlikely- because you'll still be losing as often as you are winning.

 

There's nothing stopping the top player from carrying himself to the top rank other than the fact that the people he's carrying against are probably too good to consistently handle on his own- since the MM system is aiming for a 50% win rate.

But there are arbitrary restrictions on soloq players: Due to the lack of hard party restrictions they have a high chance of running into a to4, while by definition they cannot be on the side of the to4. Hence the MM fucks them over as party size is still not an important MM parameter outside of Focused in the first 2.5 minutes.

 

Him saying "you shouldn't be able to get #1 by soloQing anyways" basically means he will always be okay with giving to4 a free advantage over soloQers. Yeah he says he's working on a solution that will always match parties against soloqs of higher rank (+500 or something) but that is still far away.

 

I'm really not trying to paint him as the bad guy here,I mean Menke has some really neat ideas, but the fact of the matter is that the ranking system is still meaningless two years after launch. Keep in mind that only recently they were able to start working on a system that doesn't first fill the lobby and then tries balance teams (which is often impossible because you can't split parties) ,but do it the other way around try to fill the lobby with people that will lead to balanced teams. Apparently the XBL backend has prevented them from implementing such a system in the past. I wonder what other kinds of restrictions there are due to XBL fuckery.

 

Source

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I feel like people are totally mischaracterizing his comment.

 

Think about it from a purely mathematical standpoint. Let's say you are the best player in the game - Matchmaking's job is to assemble two teams that have an equal chance of winning the match. Ideally, no matter how good you are, your best chance of winning would be 50%- this is a defining characteristic of a "good match". This would typically mean you having some less talented players on your team than the opposing team- limiting your chances at moving up.

 

With that in mind- the only way to consistently boost your chances above 50% would be to have a team so good that the system struggles to find a team that can beat you 50% of the the time- allowing you to rank up. Sure, MM would put you in such a team occasionally, but it would also put you on the other side just as often.

 

He's not advocating for arbitrary blocks on soloQers getting top 1. He's just saying if population and MM were ideal doing so would be mathematically unlikely- because you'll still be losing as often as you are winning.

 

There's nothing stopping the top player from carrying himself to the top rank other than the fact that the people he's carrying against are probably too good to consistently handle on his own- since the MM system is aiming for a 50% win rate.

Yeah how about we don't just assume random things about his intentions and read what he actually said? Specifically "As to your comment that we should let solo players get to the top of the Ranks, I don't personally agree with that. I think you have to roll with a party of Champs if you want to be #1, just like if you want to win a tournament." I personally don't agree with the statement he was responding  to (changing how MMR treats parties/solo players to favor a solo player) but why would anyone assume anything mathematical behind that comment? That's obviously his subjective opinion. The whole "I don't personally agree" part really goes lengths to let people know its an opinion. The stupid part is that he's okay with teams dominating the playlist that rewards/informs individual rankings. The individual ranking means nothing because the reason the ranks are so high at the top is because they're playing with a team. It isn't individual any longer. Sense not made. Why isn't there just a team league playlist and a solo Q?

 

The whole thing is busted because if you play alone chances are you get shit on by teams thereby lowering your individual ranking and if you play with a team you get completely free wins all the time at the high end and all of the actual "prestige" or whatever they hoped to create with the ranking system is screwed and its all really just pointless. The stupid thing is I have solo or duo queued all the way up to around Champion ~20 a couple of times during Halo 5 in Team Arena when it was the only place to play HCS settings etc so its still possible its just unbelievably frustrating. At some point it mostly stops being about how good you are and more about what sort of idiots it hopefully put on the other team for some reason and how often you actually played rather than moving up some kind of ladder. I've done the reverse too. I'll come back and play like shit for a few games. Get put in Diamond or whatever. Get it back after awhile and then just destroy people in crazy games like they'll put me against plats/golds where I'm dropping 40 and my teammates don't even know where the other team's flag is. Everything they've done just doesn't actually work well in a lot of situations

 

This is honestly why I think hard rankings like 1-50 or Bronze-Diamond are better for Halo than displayed MMR and then numerical rankings inside of the top 200. Was I really the 20th (or whatever) best player in that H5 playlist? Hell no. Am I pretty good compared to most when I actually grind the game? Sure most of us around here are. I just played more that week and got favorable match ups. I'd be much more interested in simply being 50 and then matching other 50s for competitive games than I would be trying to eek out pointless numbers by playing more than someone else. Its not like we weren't beating up on diamonds or very low Onyx players most of the time anyways.

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Someone soloq'ing in a playlist that allows teams shouldn't be able to get champ 1, all else being equal.  And this has nothing to do with party restrictions.  If there are hard party restrictions so that soloq'er NEVER matches against a team of 4 and only plays with/against randoms they are naturally not going to be able to win as many games.  The matchmaker will put the teams together that are as fair as possible.  By playing with a team of 4,  you basically remove the matchmakers ability to do this as well as it can with a solo player thereby stacking the odds in your favor.  Mathematically with a healthy population of varying party sizes and the top players playing the same number of games, solo queuing to champ 1 wouldn't be possible.

 

This theory is easily broken of course if the solo player plays a heap more than the team of 4, but that's not an "All else being equal" scenario. And if that player is so ungodly good compared to every other solo player, there is a bigger population problem with the game.

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Someone soloq'ing in a playlist that allows teams shouldn't be able to get champ 1, all else being equal.  And this has nothing to do with party restrictions.  If there are hard party restrictions so that soloq'er NEVER matches against a team of 4 and only plays with/against randoms they are naturally not going to be able to win as many games.  The matchmaker will put the teams together that are as fair as possible.  By playing with a team of 4,  you basically remove the matchmakers ability to do this as well as it can with a solo player thereby stacking the odds in your favor.  Mathematically with a healthy population of varying party sizes and the top players playing the same number of games, solo queuing to champ 1 wouldn't be possible.

 

This theory is easily broken of course if the solo player plays a heap more than the team of 4, but that's not an "All else being equal" scenario. And if that player is so ungodly good compared to every other solo player, there is a bigger population problem with the game.

 

Umm, no? This is exaclty what H3 had. Healthy population, hard party restrictions and decent skill matching that would give you a fair match and therefore a 50/50 chance of winning no matter if you're playing solo or running 2s/3s/4s. As a result it was theoretically possible to reach the max. amount of TruSkill by soloQing. Yes this is probably not how it would actually happen in real life, but this scenario is absolutely possible.

 

What you are describing is basically an exploit that relies on the fact that there probably isn't a to4 of the same skill as you out there, which allows you to farm easy CSR if you're good enough.

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But there are arbitrary restrictions on soloq players: Due to the lack of hard party restrictions they have a high chance of running into a to4, while by definition they cannot be on the side of the to4. Hence the MM fucks them over as party size is still not an important MM parameter outside of Focused in the first 2.5 minutes.

 

Him saying "you shouldn't be able to get #1 by soloQing anyways" basically means he will always be okay with giving to4 a free advantage over soloQers. Yeah he says he's working on a solution that will always match parties against soloqs of higher rank (+500 or something) but that is still far away.

 

I'm really not trying to paint him as the bad guy here,I mean Menke has some really neat ideas, but the fact of the matter is that the ranking system is still meaningless two years after launch. Keep in mind that only recently they were able to start working on a system that doesn't first fill the lobby and then tries balance teams (which is often impossible because you can't split parties) ,but do it the other way around try to fill the lobby with people that will lead to balanced teams. Apparently the XBL backend has prevented them from implementing such a system in the past. I wonder what other kinds of restrictions there are due to XBL fuckery.

 

Source

The problem isnt that to4s can run into soloqers. The problem is that the matchmaking system didn't factor in team size when it's determining odds.

 

If i take 8 identically skilled players and 4 of them are a to4, the other 4 are random and throw them in a match- the odds are not 50/50, but the current system thinks they are. The odds are so in favor of the to4 that this match shouldn't happen. It doesnt take hard restrictions to fix this, just a smarter algorithm.

 

Edit: actually that link you provided somes up what i was trying to say. I hadn't seen that yet, so thanks

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Yeah I guess we'll have to wait until that "compensate for party size" algorithm is done and implemented.

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Yeah how about we don't just assume random things about his intentions and read what he actually said? Specifically "As to your comment that we should let solo players get to the top of the Ranks, I don't personally agree with that. I think you have to roll with a party of Champs if you want to be #1, just like if you want to win a tournament." I personally don't agree with the statement he was responding to (changing how MMR treats parties/solo players to favor a solo player) but why would anyone assume anything mathematical behind that comment? That's obviously his subjective opinion. The whole "I don't personally agree" part really goes lengths to let people know its an opinion. The stupid part is that he's okay with teams dominating the playlist that rewards/informs individual rankings. The individual ranking means nothing because the reason the ranks are so high at the top is because they're playing with a team. It isn't individual any longer. Sense not made. Why isn't there just a team league playlist and a solo Q?

 

The whole thing is busted because if you play alone chances are you get shit on by teams thereby lowering your individual ranking and if you play with a team you get completely free wins all the time at the high end and all of the actual "prestige" or whatever they hoped to create with the ranking system is screwed and its all really just pointless. The stupid thing is I have solo or duo queued all the way up to around Champion ~20 a couple of times during Halo 5 in Team Arena when it was the only place to play HCS settings etc so its still possible its just unbelievably frustrating. At some point it mostly stops being about how good you are and more about what sort of idiots it hopefully put on the other team for some reason and how often you actually played rather than moving up some kind of ladder. I've done the reverse too. I'll come back and play like shit for a few games. Get put in Diamond or whatever. Get it back after awhile and then just destroy people in crazy games like they'll put me against plats/golds where I'm dropping 40 and my teammates don't even know where the other team's flag is. Everything they've done just doesn't actually work well in a lot of situations

 

This is honestly why I think hard rankings like 1-50 or Bronze-Diamond are better for Halo than displayed MMR and then numerical rankings inside of the top 200. Was I really the 20th (or whatever) best player in that H5 playlist? Hell no. Am I pretty good compared to most when I actually grind the game? Sure most of us around here are. I just played more that week and got favorable match ups. I'd be much more interested in simply being 50 and then matching other 50s for competitive games than I would be trying to eek out pointless numbers by playing more than someone else. Its not like we weren't beating up on diamonds or very low Onyx players most of the time anyways.

We can overreact about the 3 sentences he wrote. Or we can think rationally within the context of everything he said over the course of several months

 

If he was actively against soloqers from reaching top one, wouldn't be have put a hard restriction on rank?

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We can overreact about the 3 sentences he wrote. Or we can think rationally within the context of everything he said over the course of several months

 

If he was actively against soloqers from reaching top one, wouldn't be have put a hard restriction on rank?

 

Right, all he is saying is that in an ideal matchmaking/playlist health scenario a soloq'er would simply not be able to carry hard enough to win at a greater rate than a team of 4 that played together regularly with similar individual skill.  Therefore, that solo player wont be able to reach champ 1 because he can't possibly win a greater percentage of matches against like-difficultly players. 

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How would you feel about incorporating Regen and Damage Boost into a map's design instead of them being Equipment or Power Ups? For example, one area has a switch that, when activated, begins emitting a Regen field around it. Radius and duration could be modifiable traits in forge.

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How would you feel about incorporating Regen and Damage Boost into a map's design instead of them being Equipment or Power Ups? For example, one area has a switch that, when activated, begins emitting a Regen field around it. Radius and duration could be modifiable traits in forge.

 

So basically this....

 

VxV24fB.png

 

and this....

 

Untitled-1.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yea no thanks

 

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So basically this....

and this....

 

yea no thanks

 

I was thinking more of the Warlock Rift from Destiny 2.

Which to me is still not worth having. I don't want something that is going to make me stationary.

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Since Halo has no way to fix vehicles, some sort of vehicle regeneration station could be cool, on a 45s cooldown behind each team's base or something. Could also regenerate health, if that ever comes back.

 

Not a fan of damage boosted areas though, and a regen field area will either be totally broken (if it's in a power positions) or absolutely useless (if it's at bottom mid on guardian for example).

 

Still better than having these as equipment though.

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How would you feel about incorporating Regen and Damage Boost into a map's design instead of them being Equipment or Power Ups? For example, one area has a switch that, when activated, begins emitting a Regen field around it. Radius and duration could be modifiable traits in forge.

 

It would add an interesting dynamic to some maps, but it could also hamper map flow.

 

I think it could work.  Say a 2v2 map with a boosted power position but your teammate has to press a button in a different part of the map, and it only lasts around 15s before it has to recharge.

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Since Halo has no way to fix vehicles, some sort of vehicle regeneration station could be cool, on a 45s cooldown behind each team's base or something. Could also regenerate health, if that ever comes back.

 

Not a fan of damage boosted areas though, and a regen field area will either be totally broken (if it's in a power positions) or absolutely useless (if it's at bottom mid on guardian for example).

 

Still better than having these as equipment though.

The Engineers from ODST could act as vehicle repair stations. Park a damaged vehicle under one and it flies down and begins repairing the vehicle. The downside is if your Engineer gets damaged enough then his boobytrapped explosives go off, destroying the vehicle and any players around it.

 

They wouldn't be user deployable Equipment. They would be a built in part of the map. An interactive part of the map.

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The Engineers from ODST could act as vehicle repair stations. Park a damaged vehicle under one and it flies down and begins repairing the vehicle. The downside is if your Engineer gets damaged enough then his boobytrapped explosives go off, destroying the vehicle and any players around it.

 

They wouldn't be user deployable Equipment. They would be a built in part of the map. An interactive part of the map.

 

That's good shit

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Since Halo has no way to fix vehicles, some sort of vehicle regeneration station could be cool, on a 45s cooldown behind each team's base or something. Could also regenerate health, if that ever comes back.

 

Not a fan of damage boosted areas though, and a regen field area will either be totally broken (if it's in a power positions) or absolutely useless (if it's at bottom mid on guardian for example).

 

Still better than having these as equipment though.

I always thought regen/repair would be better suited as weapon you pick up rather than equipment or an ability.

 

You would have to aim and use it on a teammate or vehicle in order for it to work- you couldn't just pull it out of your back pocket to reset the battles you're in. But you could use it to backup your teammates.

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The problem isnt that to4s can run into soloqers. The problem is that the matchmaking system didn't factor in team size when it's determining odds.

 

If i take 8 identically skilled players and 4 of them are a to4, the other 4 are random and throw them in a match- the odds are not 50/50, but the current system thinks they are. The odds are so in favor of the to4 that this match shouldn't happen. It doesnt take hard restrictions to fix this, just a smarter algorithm.

 

Edit: actually that link you provided somes up what i was trying to say. I hadn't seen that yet, so thanks

 

I think the real problem is that Halo 5 doesn't really reward skilled individuals. It's a teamshot game, so how on earth can you accurately rank an individual?

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I always thought regen/repair would be better suited as weapon you pick up rather than equipment or an ability.

You would have to aim and use it on a teammate or vehicle in order for it to work- you couldn't just pull it out of your back pocket to reset the battles you're in. But you could use it to backup your teammates.

In a game like Battlefield where you have 32 players on a team, I think an individually controlled Repair Tool works better. In smaller scale games like Halo, I think there are better alternatives that don't take one of your precious few teammates out of combat.

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I was thinking more of the Warlock Rift from Destiny 2.

Which to me is still not worth having. I don't want something that is going to make me stationary.

Regen already made you pretty much stationary. The difference here is just that you can't deploy it wherever you want. The map decides where it is deployable.

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The Engineers from ODST could act as vehicle repair stations. Park a damaged vehicle under one and it flies down and begins repairing the vehicle. The downside is if your Engineer gets damaged enough then his boobytrapped explosives go off, destroying the vehicle and any players around it.

 

They wouldn't be user deployable Equipment. They would be a built in part of the map. An interactive part of the map.

I think you mean the Engineers from Halo: Wars. The ones from ODST only gave allies and vehicles overshields. It does seem something which could work in BTB, though.

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I think you mean the Engineers from Halo: Wars. The ones from ODST only gave allies and vehicles overshields. It does seem something which could work in BTB, though.

I wasn't really copying their mechanics/purpose directly from any one game. I remember they like to take shit apart and are smart so I figured they would be capable of repairing vehicles. The explosive boobytrap part acts as the risk portion of their risk/reward mechanic. Risk destroying vehicle for reward of repairing vehicle.

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