Jump to content
CyReN

Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

Recommended Posts

I'm talking about matchmaking, that specifically says custom games

Ah I get where you're coming.It's annoying that they can't make a concession because they're trying to force champions down everyone's throat instead of making it a new mode or something similar.
  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

I think it's an oversimplied explanation. And misses some Key points.

 

Perhaps 'easier' shooter are destined to be more popular than halo, but that doesn't explain halo being unpopular. The market is proven to be more than capable of sustaining both approaches to player skill.

 

Halo 3 was an example of continued growth of the franchise in the face of growing competition from "easier" franchises. Subsequently, easier franchises were outputting higher quality games, while halo's quality regressed.

 

Halo5's complexity certainly doesn't help it. But a game can be simple and difficult at the same time. That describes Halo:CE-3 in relation to other shooters of the time- which makes it attractive to players of all skill levels. Being complex and difficult limits the games potential. Being complex, difficult and low quality limits it's potential further.

 

The Main reason halo isn't popular is because the games haven't upheld a standard of quality. H4 was a game design travesty. MCC didn't work at all, and H5 had a terrible campaign, a terrible progression system, terrible bugs among other key issues. If gamers today are used to easy shooters, it's due in part because Halo stopped being a good example of a more nuanced shooter, and they had nothing else to play.

After CoD:MW2 blew up in popularity it became the standard for console shooters. People expects being able to kill targets pretty easily, and the you have Halo in a 3 years development cycle that releases H:Reach with a 5 shot DMR with bloom , extremely slow kill times . You can go a survey the average FPS player and they will tell you the most annoying thing of Halo is that "people take forever to die" . The average player isn't interested in mastering a 5 shot perfect weapon or mastering glitches.
  • Upvote (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post

I think it's an oversimplied explanation. And misses some Key points.

 

Perhaps 'easier' shooter are destined to be more popular than halo, but that doesn't explain halo being unpopular. The market is proven to be more than capable of sustaining both approaches to player skill.

 

Halo 3 was an example of continued growth of the franchise in the face of growing competition from "easier" franchises. Subsequently, easier franchises were outputting higher quality games, while halo's quality regressed.

 

Halo5's complexity certainly doesn't help it. But a game can be simple and difficult at the same time. That describes Halo:CE-3 in relation to other shooters of the time- which makes it attractive to players of all skill levels. Being complex and difficult limits the games potential. Being complex, difficult and low quality limits it's potential further.

 

The Main reason halo isn't popular is because the games haven't upheld a standard of quality. H4 was a game design travesty. MCC didn't work at all, and H5 had a terrible campaign, a terrible progression system, terrible bugs among other key issues. If gamers today are used to easy shooters, it's due in part because Halo stopped being a good example of a more nuanced shooter, and they had nothing else to play.

I don't disagree, but now that we've gone so long without a good Halo game, Halo is no longer the standard. People expect ADS, low kill times, and low effort kills now. So now that's an obstacle that Halo has to overcome that it didn't before, because easy kills weren't the standard in 2007. Prying people away from their instant gratification, zero effort dopamine fix is going to be a new challenge even with a perfect game. When you introduce an absurdly unnecessary skill floor like H5 has...fuckin good luck. I can point to SEVERAL real life friends that I've tried and failed to bring into H5 because kills are too hard and the movement is too complicated.

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

I'm really not understanding the train of thought going on in this current conversation.

 

Fast kill times in shooters are nowhere near a new thing... Specifically in CoD if we're using that particular example. A lot of competitive players walked around with Springfields in CoD2 because it was literally a one shot kill weapon. Fast kill times didn't spawn in shooters after MW2 came out, that ship has sailed a lonngggggg time ago.

 

@@Mhunterjr is 100% correct. Halo was the standard as far as console shooters until 3 subsequent releases of the franchise strayed away from its formula, removed tons of content and community entities (File Browser, Theater Mode, Bungie's Favorites, Split-screen, LAN... MLG) and now we're playing catch-up to get features back that we had a decade ago.

 

Not to mention we've had a rapid succession of unfinished games being released unfinished and broken. Not going to into all of that.

 

This entire argument kind of dances around the stigma that Halo is no longer popular because "there's more competition now." That's ridiculous. Halo isn't popular because Halo 4, MCC, and Halo 5 have regressed the entire franchise and are unpopular due to their respective quality. People taking forever to die is a cascading effect of the fact that you:

  • Can't aim in this game
  • Sprint
  • Thrust
  • Slide
  • Sprint + Thrust + Slide

Other games being on the market should not be an issue for a console selling franchise. CoD has no issues with population and has been on the market a lot longer than Halo, so "other games being on the market" is a joke.

  • Upvote (+1) 8
  • Downvote (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

I'm really not understanding the train of thought going on in this current conversation.

 

Fast kill times in shooters are nowhere near a new thing... Specifically in CoD if we're using that particular example. A lot of competitive players walked around with Springfields in CoD2 because it was literally a one shot kill weapon. Fast kill times didn't spawn in shooters after MW2 came out, that ship has sailed a lonngggggg time ago.

 

@@Mhunterjr is 100% correct. Halo was the standard as far as console shooters until 3 subsequent releases of the franchise strayed away from its formula, removed tons of content and community entities (File Browser, Theater Mode, Bungie's Favorites, Split-screen, LAN... MLG) and now we're playing catch-up to get features back that we had a decade ago.

 

Not to mention we've had a rapid succession of unfinished games being released unfinished and broken. Not going to into all of that.

 

This entire argument kind of dances around the stigma that Halo is no longer popular because "there's more competition now." That's ridiculous. Halo isn't popular because Halo 4, MCC, and Halo 5 have regressed the entire franchise and are unpopular due to their respective quality. People taking forever to die is a cascading effect of the fact that you:

  • Can't aim in this game
  • Sprint
  • Thrust
  • Slide
  • Sprint + Thrust + Slide
Other games being on the market should not be an issue for a console selling franchise. CoD has no issues with population and has been on the market a lot longer than Halo, so "other games being on the market" is a joke.
You are really undermining the effect of the 3 year cycle. Between H3 and Reach CoD released MW1, WaW, MW2, BO1 in those years .

Stop complaining about advanced movement mechanics, CoD does it even worst and they are the most popular.

  • Upvote (+1) 1
  • Downvote (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

You are really undermining the effect of the 3 year cycle. Between H3 and Reach CoD released MW1, WaW, MW2, BO1 in those years .

Stop complaining about advanced movement mechanics, CoD does it even worst and they are the most popular.

 

Our three year cycle has nothing to do with the fact that features that were in the game a decade ago are no longer present in the franchise.

 

I'm not complaining about the movement mechanics; they're not advanced at all. You make it sound like I have no idea how to use them lol.. Which is false. These mechanics are a detriment to the franchise. Not because they're "advanced" as you use, but because they slow down gameplay tremendously; which is YOUR complaint. If anyone is complaining about something, it's the complaints about slow kill times while defending a game that enables slow kill times with abilities that allow you to escape death.

 

CoD is the most popular because for the most part, it sticks to its formula. You can go from one Call of Duty and skip 4 generations of games and it will still feel like CoD.... There isn't a single Halo that plays similar to the previous. Halo 2 -> Halo 3 is the closest and that's saying a lot (Obviously not counting H2A).

  • Upvote (+1) 10
  • Downvote (-1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

You are really undermining the effect of the 3 year cycle. Between H3 and Reach CoD released MW1, WaW, MW2, BO1 in those years .

Stop complaining about advanced movement mechanics, CoD does it even worst and they are the most popular.

Halo 3 managed to compete with all of those and refused to have any older CoD game beat it in terms of population. Only the most recent CoDs of the time would give H3 a run for its money in XBL most played until the game naturally died. Nowadays, a nearly 5 year old CoD game is at least 7 places ahead of H5 alongside 3 other CoD games with their own split populations ahead of H5.

 

CoD may have been the bigger culprit of changing its core movement, but twitch shooter kill times keep the game from revolving around escaping gunfights and teamshooting, unlike halo's 1 second kill times. CoD is also a staple franchise for casuals regardless of its direction. There's nothing that can be done to change that, even with its rival of Battlefield.

Share this post


Link to post

Exactly...The slow kill times have been extremely noticeable with the magnum firing blanks all the time depending on how bad the server is. Can we just get a 4sk magnum and decent hit registration, please?

Share this post


Link to post

The single biggest problem with this game for new players or old players trying to come back isn't weapon balance or kill times or content....

 

Its the artificially high skill floor caused by the unnecessary and frustrating mechanical complications of the game.  I have written about this before but that is what all my old halo playing friends complain about on the rare occasion i convince them to get on.  Its not the OP auto's or lack of dev big team or any of that (also ridiculous) stuff, its how many fucking buttons they have to press in the average gunfight or just to traverse the map efficiently.

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

Our three year cycle has nothing to do with the fact that features that were in the game a decade ago are no longer present in the franchise.

 

I'm not complaining about the movement mechanics; they're not advanced at all. You make it sound like I have no idea how to use them lol.. Which is false. These mechanics are a detriment to the franchise. Not because they're "advanced" as you use, but because they slow down gameplay tremendously; which is YOUR complaint. If anyone is complaining about something, it's the complaints about slow kill times while defending a game that enables slow kill times with abilities that allow you to escape death.

 

CoD is the most popular because for the most part, it sticks to its formula. You can go from one Call of Duty and skip a 4 generations of games and it will still feel like CoD.... There isn't a single Halo that plays similar to the previous. Halo 2 -> Halo 3 is the closest and that's saying a lot (Obviously not counting H2A).

What ??. Have you played any CoD after Ghost ??. MW2 was king without Forge, Without Theater, without FileShare without a ranked playlist. Stop with this "features" bullshit, yes, Halo has had very bad games after Halo3 but CoD had Terrible games after BO2.

You guys should stop dreaming about Halo being on top again, that isn't going to happen anytime soon even if 343 somehow makes the best Halo ever. This is a change in gamers mentality , WoW was once the king and haven't changed the formula in 15 years how come now is LoL/Dota the Kings ?? .

 

Why is it that Overwatch an extremely popular game in PC is doing incredibly bad on consoles ??. Because console players like their CoD they are used to do the Modern Military Shooter.

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

I miss the times when Halo used to set a quality standard for games. From functional content delivered at launch, all the way to the UI design and features, Halo set an example for many, only to regress to the utter rotting roadkill it is today.

  • Upvote (+1) 6

Share this post


Link to post

This is kind of a separate point so I'm separating this from my post and I just want to be clear.. 

 

There is absolutely nothing complex about Halo 5's movement mechanics. There is absolutely nothing complex/difficult/skillful about pressing a button on your controller that sends your spartan a direction.

 

Sprinting - Press A and run in a line.

 

Thrust - Press the X button and thrust in a direction

 

Slide - Press the crouch button while sprinting

 

I assume you guys mean "advanced" in relation to the fact that you have to press multiple buttons to get from Point A to Point B. There's nothing difficult about remembering a button combination to get into a certain spot. Advanced is a word you would use when something is actually difficult to do. The word you're really looking for is tedious

 

 

 

i like to describe it as "Convoluted" but tedious is good too. when you are thinking constantly (especially as a new player) "why the fuck did i just have to press this button to do that?" thats a bad thing.

  • Upvote (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post

What ??. Have you played any CoD after Ghost ??. MW2 was king without Forge, Without Theater, without FileShare without a ranked playlist. Stop with this "features" bullshit, yes, Halo has had very bad games after Halo3 but CoD had Terrible games after BO2.

You guys should stop dreaming about Halo being on top again, that isn't going to happen anytime soon even if 343 somehow makes the best Halo ever. This is a change in gamers mentality , WoW was once the king and haven't changed the formula in 15 years how come now is LoL/Dota the Kings ?? .

 

Why is it that Overwatch an extremely popular game in PC is doing incredibly bad on consoles ??. Because console players like their CoD they are used to do the Modern Military Shooter.

Overwatch is currently number 6 on XBL most played. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/store/most-played/games/xbox?target=games..all

 

If that is somehow unpopular to you, then we're done here.

 

Besides, you can't be sure that CoD is seriously the only game that people would like to play even if 343 put out their best Halo game when 343 hasn't even put out a real, functional halo game for the past 7 years, especially when GTA 5 is number 1 right now, unless you somehow classify that as a modern military shooter...

  • Upvote (+1) 6

Share this post


Link to post

Thank you @@TryHardFan

 

What ??. Have you played any CoD after Ghost ??. MW2 was king without Forge, Without Theater, without FileShare without a ranked playlist. Stop with this "features" bullshit, yes, Halo has had very bad games after Halo3 but CoD had Terrible games after BO2.
You guys should stop dreaming about Halo being on top again, that isn't going to happen anytime soon even if 343 somehow makes the best Halo ever. This is a change in gamers mentality , WoW was once the king and haven't changed the formula in 15 years how come now is LoL/Dota the Kings ?? .

Why is it that Overwatch an extremely popular game in PC is doing incredibly bad on consoles ??. Because console players like their CoD they are used to do the Modern Military Shooter.

 

Overwatch is not doing "incredibly bad on consoles". It's doing significantly better than a hell of a lot of other games on both PS4 and Xbox One.. And guess what, that game is also underneath only one Call of Duty. Guess how many Call of Duty's Halo is under? But the main reason it's not as popular is because there's a superior PC version available with better aiming.

 

Yes, I've played every single CoD. Nothing you're saying is proving a point. "Stop with this features bullshit".. Are you even being serious right now? I was respectfully debating with you until this point, now I honestly feel like you're trolling. What kind of universe do you live in where removing features outside of gameplay that helps players engage in and out of the game (specifically one that enables you to play with people in the same HOUSE as you), is a good thing?

 

You're right CoD did have some bad games after MW2. Black Ops 1 was meh, but guess what? Black Ops 2 was a huge improvement. AW was literally the worst, but Black Ops 3 was a huge improvement even with the terrible mechanics. IW is probably the last of the crappy mechanics because the feedback has definitely been heard. Why do you think WW2's big promotion slogan has been "boots on the ground"? Do you think you keep hearing this phrase for no reason?

 

You keep comparing Halo to CoD and it's EXTREMELY contradictory to your argument because Halo 3 stood up against multiple CoDs and consistently beat them over the months, that includes MW2 at a time. I feel like you're not even thinking about what you're arguing, you're just saying a bunch of stuff just to argue.

  • Upvote (+1) 9

Share this post


Link to post

If Mlg didn't get screwed over and were allowed to run h4 tourneys, halo would have still been fine. Remember the opening tourney had 40k watching, and CoD was nowhere as popular as an eSports yet.

Share this post


Link to post

If Mlg didn't get screwed over and were allowed to run h4 tourneys, halo would have still been fine. Remember the opening tourney had 40k watching, and CoD was nowhere as popular as an eSports yet.

 

I actually worked that Halo 4 event lol. It's crazy during the Reach days seeing Black Ops on the other side of the venue nowhere near as populated and seeing how much the game has grown today. This was back when CoD refs would have to come over to the Halo area to lend a hand because there was more than enough staff to cover that game.

Share this post


Link to post

I actually worked that Halo 4 event lol. It's crazy during the Reach days seeing Black Ops on the other side of the venue nowhere near as populated and seeing how much the game has grown today. This was back when CoD refs would have to come over to the Halo area to lend a hand because there was more than enough staff to cover that game.

All tweets from Sundance:

 

"Halo stream @ Dallas had 40k watching at 1 point. need to get people used to watching competitive CoD. We got work to do.

 

Also - with the help of folks like @OpTicH3CZ and others I know we can build competitive CoD to rival what we had with Halo.

 

 

 

Support from @DavidVonderhaar and the @Treyarch folks has been big. Biggest we've ever seen for a console shooter.

 

 

 

Without support from MSFT / 343 we can't run Halo. MSFT has a deal with Virgin Gaming. 343 has expressed interest in working with us."

 

 

 

Fast forward 5 years and it's now the king of console.

Share this post


Link to post

Halo's decline isn't that complicated.

 

H1- H3

 

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox/halo-combat-evolved  97% 

 

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox/halo-2 95%

 

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/halo-3 94%

 

H4 - H5

 

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/halo-4 87%

 

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-one/halo-the-master-chief-collection 85% 

 

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-one/halo-5-guardians 84%

 

Pretty generous adding the MCC score because the game literally didn't work and still busted to this day.

 

The ratings perfectly correlates to what fans have been saying "Halo games just get worse and worse" a complete downward trajectory.  Even Halo Reach fits right in there, its pretty fascinating to be honest. 

 

http://www.metacritic.com/game/xbox-360/halo-reach 91 % 

 

 

tldr; Halo has gotten less popular because of the quality games. If there's no new halo release in 2018 the series is done, Halo will be completely irrelevant in the gaming landscape in 2019. Very few people are going to wait 4 years for a sequel of a game that averaged around 80%. Gaming culture just moves way too fast for anyone to care at a certain point. 

  • Upvote (+1) 4

Share this post


Link to post

This is kind of a separate point so I'm separating this from my last post and I just want to be clear.. 

 

There is absolutely nothing complex about Halo 5's movement mechanics. There is absolutely nothing complex/difficult/skillful about pressing a button on your controller that sends your spartan a direction.

 

Sprinting - Press A and run in a line.

 

Thrust - Press the X button and thrust in a direction

 

Slide - Press the crouch button while sprinting

 

I assume you guys mean "advanced" in relation to the fact that you have to press multiple buttons to get from Point A to Point B. There's nothing difficult about remembering a button combination to get into a certain spot. Advanced is a word you would use when something is actually difficult to do. The word you're really looking for is tedious. Edit: @Apoll0 is probably right. Convoluted is probably a better word.

 

For instance, when people found you can jump up to Ring 3 on Sanctuary in Halo 2 because you had to time your crouch jump to land into the indenture, aim up at a specific spot on Ring 3, and time your crouch jump to land on the above platform.. This wasn't considered an "advanced movement mechanic". No, this was a simply another tactic to get to another spot on the map. That's it. Nothing "advanced" about it.

 

If anything it's probably daunting for new players to get into the game because they're not expecting to have to press 16 buttons in order to traverse a map and actually start shooting in a First Person Shooter. I implore you to go watch a game of Midship CTF in Halo 2 and watch Truth CTF in Halo 5. 

 

Look at how slow the games in Halo 5 are in relation to each other. Maps are much more condensed with better lines of sight so that teams can actually work together and actually FIGHT the other team instead of the comparison of Truth, which has to deal with decreased lines of sight and a map that has to be traversed with button combinations such as sprint + thrust + slide in order to move in a reasonable amount of time.

 

There's a specific reason why Halo 2 and Halo 3 could outperform the CoDs.. Because people were actually playing the game.

 

Not to mention you had a proper utility weapon.

 

Not to mention in relation to having a proper utility weapon, you didn't have an auto that could kill you from significant distances while having the luxury spraying and thrusting to avoid shots from someone using a precision weapon.

 

Not to mention these are some of the least liked maps in the history of the game.

 

Not to mention we don't have features from a decade ago.

 

I could go on and on. But yeah. There's nothing advanced about Halo 5's movement. No one's complaining about it lol.

 

 

I think regardless of the word you use to describe the movement techniques in Halo 5, the point stays the same. We're not claiming its wave dashing. It's like you said, it's just the fact that you need to press a ton of buttons to get from point A to point B.

 

It's just a series of button inputs like a doubleshot or quad shot. I don't think Bum Jumping is hard, but at the same time it's not something that people were picking up on very quickly when trying to teach them, it takes a tiny bit of practice. Same with constantly spring jumping.

 

None of those techniques though are exactly the problem in terms of skill floor. I would consider those movement techniques more advanced than just a basic jump or ability. I actually have a decent number of friends whose problems weren't the maps, or the autos/weapons. For all I know they might have disliked them eventually after time but they couldn't even spend time to dislike the game because the mechanics were so jarring to them that they would just rather play something else.

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post

I think regardless of the word you use to describe the movement techniques in Halo 5, the point stays the same. We're not claiming its wave dashing. It's like you said, it's just the fact that you need to press a ton of buttons to get from point A to point B.

 

It's just a series of button inputs like a doubleshot or quad shot. I don't think Bum Jumping is hard, but at the same time it's not something that people were picking up on very quickly when trying to teach them, it takes a tiny bit of practice. Same with constantly spring jumping.

 

None of those techniques though are exactly the problem in terms of skill floor. I would consider those movement techniques more advanced than just a basic jump or ability. I actually have a decent number of friends whose problems weren't the maps, or the autos/weapons. For all I know they might have disliked them eventually after time but they couldn't even spend time to dislike the game because the mechanics were so jarring to them that they would just rather play something else.

 

Yeah, I see your point man. My disagreement on the stance with cubanex came from his statement of "stop complaining about it" as if I was whining about them or something lol. I was making a point in reference to the fact that he insists that Halo isn't popular because of it's long kill times, but defends the game with some of the longest kill times and gameplay simply because these movement mechanics allow fights to go on for significantly longer than they should.

 

However I've definitely always agreed with the fact the movement is entirely too involved to begin with and it drives people to not play the game. Not because they're difficult but because they're, as you said, too jarring to begin with. And at that point I wouldn't even imagine they would have gotten to the Bum Jumping or Thrust + Slide + Jump + Ground Pound + Stabilize + Thrust + Clamber combos yet. I'm aware that that is a thing, but if the introduction to the game is perplexing, it's just not going to hold someone's attention.

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah, I see your point man. My disagreement on the stance with cubanex came from his statement of "stop complaining about it" as if I was whining about them or something lol. I was making a point in reference to the fact that he insists that Halo isn't popular because of it's long kill times, but defends the game with some of the longest kill times and gameplay simply because these movement mechanics allow fights to go on for significantly longer than they should.

 

However I've definitely always agreed with the fact the movement is entirely too involved to begin with and it drives people to not play the game. Not because they're difficult but because they're, as you said, too jarring to begin with. And at that point I wouldn't even imagine they would have gotten to the Bum Jumping or Thrust + Slide + Jump + Ground Pound + Stabilize + Thrust + Clamber combos yet. I'm aware that that is a thing, but if the introduction to the game is perplexing, it's just not going to hold someone's attention.

And what I'm saying is that CoD has also the wall running, jet packs, sliding bullshit . And that doesn't seems to matter, because they are still the most popular console game.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.