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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I've heard their aiming code module is 3,430 lines of code long.  That particular DLL compiles to about 27 meg.  So there's that contributing to the overall patch size....

 

Seriously though, I would think their build size on patches would be getting smaller at this point as they further optimize the code base.  If they aren't adding assets and just rebuilding DLL's with a few code tweaks, it should be barely any size change from build to build.  

 

I think what's happening is they have new assets in the build for upcoming updates that aren't "unlocked yet."  They are present in the build though mostly likely because it is the current working build in their agile development cycle.  (Agile being used very loosely here.... They got some big ole sprints at 343i)  Just my theory as a fellow software dood. 

 

The libraries getting smaller wouldn't contribute to the download of a patch to overwrite said file(s) though. If one of the libraries went from 1.0 GB to 900 MB, they would still need to download the 900 MB to overwrite that specific file.

 

Edit: Unless I just read this wrong and you're talking about just the overall size of Halo 5, in which I don't think they're going to hit a significant dent in it anytime soon lol. Optimizing their code base could also mean the introduction of new classes and objects which could end up increasing the size as well. So it's kind of one of those "who knows?" kinda deals.

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The libraries getting smaller wouldn't contribute to the download of a patch to overwrite said file(s) though. If one of the libraries went from 1.0 GB to 900 MB, they would still need to download the 900 MB to overwrite that specific file.

That's barely even a patch, its reinstalling the game with the added convenience of not having to download your existing files. Unless you are replacing the entire 1.0 GB library with an entirely new 900 MB library with absolutely no shared code, the download shouldn't be 900 MB. If I'm modding a Halo 2 map, and change the battle rifle so it shoots rockets instead of BR projs, I'm NOT going to force users of my mod to download the modded 200,000 KB cache file for such a small change. I'm going to use SPPF to look at the original copy of the map and the modded copy, then generate an appropriate delta patch about 2 KB in size. I'll then distribute that 2KB patch to all my users, who can then patch their maps to play my mod at their leisure.

 

Unless they're dealing with encryption, I don't see why binary deltas aren't used more.

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My theory: the next xbox will launch in two years. Halo 6 will be a launch title. They are going to take an extra year to polish that turd a little longer I imagine.

Nice fucking joke. There's a higher chance of the Devil Dick slapping you in the face than there is Microsoft replacing their highest Grade system ever in 2 years. The One X is the dig until 2021. No earlier

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Following the logical trendline. The xbox 360 released after 5 years, the xbone released after 7, therefore the X Box X 360 X will release the year 2022. 

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Did they ever reveal the One X price?

 

edit:

letmegooglethatformyself.

Pretty impressive they fit that kind of horsepower into a $500 machine.  I am impressed. I was expecting $600. 

Won't do any good though unless M$ steps up it's game with.... games.

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Nice fucking joke. There's a higher chance of the Devil Dick slapping you in the face

joey_diaz_lg.jpg

 

 

Nice fucking joke. There's a higher chance of the Devil Dick slapping you in the face than there is Microsoft replacing their highest Grade system ever in 2 years. The One X is the dig until 2021. No earlier

X1 is the last Xbox. It's all PC from here. Sony and Nintendo might keep going but Phil Spencer knows what time it is.

 

A console in 2021 is to a PC in 2021 as Vid.me is to Youtube. Maybe MS will release a PC application like Steam or the MS store with features only a big corporation can provide (like big deals with other corporations) but that's about it.

 

Console gaming is ~50% dead now and will be ~70% dead in 2021. A new line of consoles would make it ~95% dead.

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Nintendo has innovation that can't be found on PC or other consoles, and has otherwise carved out their own niche in the market anyways with the vast majority of their game library being their own exclusives.  My sister bought a 3DS and showed me it the other day and I was blown away by the thing.  I think they will be fine so long as they stay dedicated to remaining unique and not trying to compete with the PC market, which is always a losing battle.

 

Sony only manages to remain afloat in the console market because they always have good exclusives for their systems that can't otherwise be played on PC.  Their future depends on keeping that up.  Otherwise their consoles are just obsessed with being inferior PC's that have nothing to offer over PC except exclusives.

 

Microsoft meanwhile has had absolutely no idea what it's doing since the Xbox 360.  The biggest draw of the Xbox One X isn't it's graphics or its abysmal library of games.  It's that it's backwards compatible with the one and only Xbox console to have an actually strong lineup of unique exclusives.  The Xbox brand has absolutely nothing to offer the modern consumer.  90% of the games are AAA titles that can be found on any other platform, and they've effectively killed the few strong exclusives they had over the years through poor management of those franchises.  It could potentially save itself if it began focusing on getting exclusive access to new IP's instead of constantly rehashing the same tired garbage, but if the past decade has been any indication it won't do that.

 

Just casually browse this list and tell me if any of the games marked "Yes" or "Console" stand out to you.  Just look at all that red too.

 

Original Xbox had ~70 purely exclusive games.

Xbox 360 had ~80

Xbox One has ~30.

 

Where the fuckin' games at?

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CoD and FIFA and whatever the fuck sport americans play will sell consoles for decades.

Do Americans even play those sport games?

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Exclusives are obnoxious, anti-consumer garbage, especially now that both Sony and Microsoft are basically just peddling shitty PCs and have been for quite some time. Nintendo's console gimmicks annoy me to a degree and I would still prefer that they publish their games on PC, but at least they do something to differentiate themselves and have pretty much always had an extremely unique and varied library of first party titles. And their handhelds have always been great.

 

Sony's exclusives past the PS2 have pretty much been generic triple-A, "cinematic" games with tons of motion captured animations (like Ubisoft) and some super "artsy" fluff. The only reason I would buy a PS4 is for more esoteric shit like Bloodborne and Persona 5 (which is on PS3 anyway). Microsoft has definitely tried to up their game since the shitty Xboner launch, but a lot of it has been fairly niche stuff like Killer Instinct, Phantom Dust, and Ori and their flagship IP is now utter trash that nobody cares about, while Sony is still very successfully milking that Uncharted teat. Xbox has never had any particularly good reason not to put everything on PC other than the delusion, shared by many console gamers, that putting on PC makes it a "fake exclusive." If they aren't moving towards Xbox as basically Steambox style prebuilt PCs, they're fucking up.

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Following the logical trendline. The xbox 360 released after 5 years, the xbone released after 7, therefore the X Box X 360 X will release the year 2022. 

 

360 lasted so long because of the worldwide recession during its lifespan. I personally think that in two years Xbox One OG/S will no longer play the newest games. The X will be dropped down in price and a new machine will be the new standard. 6+ year lifecylces no longer make sense for consoles.  

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That's barely even a patch, its reinstalling the game with the added convenience of not having to download your existing files. Unless you are replacing the entire 1.0 GB library with an entirely new 900 MB library with absolutely no shared code, the download shouldn't be 900 MB. If I'm modding a Halo 2 map, and change the battle rifle so it shoots rockets instead of BR projs, I'm NOT going to force users of my mod to download the modded 200,000 KB cache file for such a small change. I'm going to use SPPF to look at the original copy of the map and the modded copy, then generate an appropriate delta patch about 2 KB in size. I'll then distribute that 2KB patch to all my users, who can then patch their maps to play my mod at their leisure.

 

Unless they're dealing with encryption, I don't see why binary deltas aren't used more.

 

I'm really having trouble deciphering what you're talking about..? Lol You've never seen library that's more than a few hundred MB? I implore you to use the Qt API my friend lol. That's literally how patches are performed. What you're talking about would be a reference to something in a database. The game isn't open source, nor is the code that you're modding the functionality of.

 

Binaries are used so that entire code bases can't be stolen for nothing. In-game mechanics and functionality (such as the ability to actually shoot and have the character models respond to your inputs) is source code related and not something that isn't (and shouldn't) be easily accessible.

 

To summarize: Changing assets =/= changing functionality of how something interacts with geometry, how your model (in this case a spartan) reacts to button inputs, etc.

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Just imagine if Half life 3 comes out as an Xbox console exclusive (still on PC of course. But like orange box not on PS)

 

That would sell xbox like crazy IMO

 

 

Wasn't it rumored that the X.B.O.X was going to be upgradeable?

 

I'm guessing that isn't happening now.

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Exclusives are obnoxious, anti-consumer garbage

 

I more or less agree.  It's just I fail to see the point in ever buying consoles without them.

 

Imagine a world where Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft all shared the same games.  The only real difference between the consoles would be price point and level of technology.  A difference that someone who builds their own PC is in full control over anyways.  What would be my incentive to purchase one over the other, let alone one over a PC?

 

It's not that I like exclusives, I just think they're a necessary evil for the continued existence of independent console brands.   If you pseudo-PC doesn't have any games to offer over a regular PC then what does it have to offer?  Nintendo has gimmicks for better or worse, but that leaves the question open-ended for Sony and Microsoft.

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I'm really having trouble deciphering what you're talking about..?

 

Yeah, upon waking up, I realized I misread some of what you said, along with just being really unclear.

 

Lol You've never seen library that's more than a few hundred MB?

 

No, I simply meant to say that if a library changes from 1.0 GB to 900 MB, that shouldn't strictly equate to 900 MB in bandwidth for the enduser. I'm only a software hobbyist/amateur, so if there's something I'm not getting, please enlighten me.

 

 

What you're talking about would be a reference to something in a database. The game isn't open source, nor is the code that you're modding the functionality of.

 

Well, specifically, Halo uses a tag system to manage data. The tag system isn't open source, its just freely available for non-commercial use in content creation under its own EULA. Both Halo PC and Halo 2 Vista have publicly available editing kits, along with documentation by Bungie. What I can accomplish by altering maps by editing meta, I can also do by simply recompiling the entire maps with the kits. I'm not really sure what you're getting at with your explanation of what a binary is/the difference between core functionality vs cache/data files. I was just giving an example of a bandwidth conscience patch. Sorry for being unclear.

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No, I simply meant to say that if a library changes from 1.0 GB to 900 MB, that shouldn't strictly equate to 900 MB in bandwidth for the enduser. I'm only a software hobbyist/amateur, so if there's something I'm not getting, please enlighten me.

 

I just explained it. If you've ever had an update for one of your applications on your computer that reside in your Program Files folder example, when you get an update, you're just getting an update on the files/libraries that need to be updated not the whole application. The size of the library is irrelevant, if you update a library that an application links to, then you need to re-download the entire file. Binary files (libraries) are not read/writable by text editors so it's not a matter of just merging in some functionality like you're suggesting. That's not how it works; which is by design.

 

Well, specifically, Halo uses a tag system to manage data. The tag system isn't open source, its just freely available for non-commercial use in content creation under its own EULA. Both Halo PC and Halo 2 Vista have publicly available editing kits, along with documentation by Bungie. What I can accomplish by altering maps by editing meta, I can also do by simply recompiling the entire maps with the kits. I'm not really sure what you're getting at with your explanation of what a binary is/the difference between core functionality vs cache/data files. I was just giving an example of a bandwidth conscience patch. Sorry for being unclear.

 

You're talking about content creation (the word 'mod' is thrown around very loosely). The tag system you're referring to (which I don't have any personal experience with but I understand what it is) allows users like you and myself to create our own assets and "plug and play" so to speak (yes, I'm aware it's not literally plug and play).

 

Core functionality is what makes the game "do stuff." The tag system or whatever it is isn't going to allow you to:

  • Modify how Halo 5 accepts inputs (for instance in Halo 5, you can't add an asset using the tag system that will give your character the double-shot glitch)
  • How grenades interrogate geometry or the trajectory as they ricochet off of other geometry
  • How fast you character model rotates (yaw/pitch/roll) when you get blown up by a rocket
  • The GUI interface
  • Add new storylines to the campaign

And many other things. Core functionality is pretty self explanatory, it's basically what drives the game. You simply altering some things on a map is not the equivalent of changing back-end code which is what this 1.3 GB update was about.

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I more or less agree.  It's just I fail to see the point in ever buying consoles without them.

 

Imagine a world where Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft all shared the same games.  The only real difference between the consoles would be price point and level of technology.  A difference that someone who builds their own PC is in full control over anyways.  What would be my incentive to purchase one over the other, let alone one over a PC?

 

It's not that I like exclusives, I just think they're a necessary evil for the continued existence of independent console brands.   If you pseudo-PC doesn't have any games to offer over a regular PC then what does it have to offer?  Nintendo has gimmicks for better or worse, but that leaves the question open-ended for Sony and Microsoft.

 

I think the problem is that people are inclined to view consoles as something you buy largely in addition to a decent gaming PC, when the reality is that a large percentage of the console gaming market is, in fact, people who are not interested in buying PCs and want to spend about 200-400 dollars on a machine that will play modern games at 1080p/~30fps. At that point, what exactly is the benefit of trying to get PC gamers to buy shitty hardware so they can buy your games? We know that no one but Nintendo has consistently sold systems for a profit, so they aren't making money on the hardware. What are they making money on, exactly? Software, media, subscriptions, peripherals. All of those things can be sold to PC gamers without first selling them a dumpy proprietary PC at a loss.

 

And that's really just covering the merits of just putting the damn games on PC (i.e. cutting out the middle man of losing money on hardware). How would the systems themselves differentiate without "not on your system" exclusives? Quality of their services, quality of their hardware, peripherals, etc. All stuff that Sony happens to have largely neglected after unveiling their "not R WORD," but otherwise completely mundane console and a steady flow of the usual exclusive content? People are so used to the way things are done that alternatives just don't come to mind. Sony could easily have their own marketplace to compete with Steam/GOG/Win10 Store (lol), integrate Trophies, social features, etc on PC. They could support Linux. All of these things could happen in tandem with PS Computer or whatever they call the prebuilt boxes for console gamers.

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CoD and FIFA and whatever the fuck sport americans play will sell consoles for decades.

Or that people aren't trying to stare at a PC monitor or be at a computer desk to have fun.

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I just explained it. If you've ever had an update for one of your applications on your computer that reside in your Program Files folder example, when you get an update, you're just getting an update on the files/libraries that need to be updated not the whole application. The size of the library is irrelevant, if you update a library that an application links to, then you need to re-download the entire file. Binary files (libraries) are not read/writable by text editors so it's not a matter of just merging in some functionality like you're suggesting. That's not how it works; which is by design.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

 

You're talking about content creation (the word 'mod' is thrown around very loosely). The tag system you're referring to (which I don't have any personal experience with but I understand what it is) allows users like you and myself to create our own assets and "plug and play" so to speak (yes, I'm aware it's not literally plug and play).

 

Core functionality is what makes the game "do stuff." The tag system or whatever it is isn't going to allow you to:

  • Modify how Halo 5 accepts inputs (for instance in Halo 5, you can't add an asset using the tag system that will give your character the double-shot glitch)
  • How grenades interrogate geometry or the trajectory as they ricochet off of other geometry
  • How fast you character model rotates (yaw/pitch/roll) when you get blown up by a rocket
  • The GUI interface
  • Add new storylines to the campaign
And many other things. Core functionality is pretty self explanatory, it's basically what drives the game. You simply altering some things on a map is not the equivalent of changing back-end code which is what this 1.3 GB update was about.

 

But I wasn't throwing the word around loosely. Just because I can recompile an entire map doesn't make it sensical to do. Not being able to edit the meta (or mod, with the help of 3rd party editors,) of custom maps would make testing content absolute hell. Just a few days ago I modded someone else's map to help them fix some balance issues, and not having existing modding tools would have made the ordeal a nightmare.

 

Oh yes, I'm well aware of what tags can and can't do. I understand what core functionality is.

 

  • The GUI interface
  • Add new storylines to the campaign

Actually, Halo is a particularly fun game to work with because the main menu is a map. Widgets are tag-based, so you can change the main menu however you like. Same goes for the pause menu and any other UI's in the game. The PC version of Halo CE supports opening any map you target in the scripting engine as well, so while the actual "core" campaign missions can't be changed, admittedly, you could quite reasonably make a new main menu with a new slot just for a new campaign, that would feature all of the same abilities as the regular campaign, with checkpoints, map to map loading, ect.

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But I wasn't throwing the word around loosely. Just because I can recompile an entire map doesn't make it sensical to do. Not being able to edit the meta (or mod, with the help of 3rd party editors,) of custom maps would make testing content absolute hell. Just a few days ago I modded someone else's map to help them fix some balance issues, and not having existing modding tools would have made the ordeal a nightmare.

 

Oh yes, I'm well aware of what tags can and can't do. I understand what core functionality is.

 

I wasn't saying you, Ling Ling, just meant in general lol. And yeah it's not viable for large sets of data but there's a significant difference in hiding proprietary information like the source code of Halo's physics engine and a map that we can "see". There's nothing about a map that needs to be recompiled, all it is is a bunch of triangles stored in a file. That's literally it lol and that's what I'm saying to you as far as what needs to be replaced and what can be simply modified. Unfortunately both of the things fixed in this patch were physics related (grenades interacting with wall geometry) and the double shot glitch (how the engine accepts the inputs).  

 

 

 

Actually, Halo is a particularly fun game to work with because the main menu is a map. Widgets are tag-based, so you can change the main menu however you like. Same goes for the pause menu and any other UI's in the game. The PC version of Halo CE supports opening any map you target in the scripting engine as well, so while the actual "core" campaign missions can't be changed, admittedly, you could quite reasonably make a new main menu with a new slot just for a new campaign, that would feature all of the same abilities as the regular campaign, with checkpoints, map to map loading, ect.

 

My mistake on the GUI part. I realized after I said it that more than likely the GUI would be customizable if it were exported a certain way (and most GUI's are).

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People have been saying consoles are dying for a while and the sales show no sign of that

still, PC gaming has been growing since its inception. Console gaming may not be dying, but it does seem like it's being outpaced.

 

Or maybe I'm just talking out of my own ass on this one.

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PS4 has still a very impressive playerbase, more people playing battlefield  4 and 1 on the ps4 than xbox or pc.

Playstation won't die in a long time, they are still living off playstation 2's success, that console sold so well, not even the ps3 sold badly because of it (i mean $800 for a 80GB version at launch lolwut).

 

Playstation can live up to playstation 6 before they recognize its time.

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I think the problem is that people are inclined to view consoles as something you buy largely in addition to a decent gaming PC, when the reality is that a large percentage of the console gaming market is, in fact, people who are not interested in buying PCs and want to spend about 200-400 dollars on a machine that will play modern games at 1080p/~30fps. At that point, what exactly is the benefit of trying to get PC gamers to buy shitty hardware so they can buy your games? We know that no one but Nintendo has consistently sold systems for a profit, so they aren't making money on the hardware. What are they making money on, exactly? Software, media, subscriptions, peripherals. All of those things can be sold to PC gamers without first selling them a dumpy proprietary PC at a loss.

 

And that's really just covering the merits of just putting the damn games on PC (i.e. cutting out the middle man of losing money on hardware). How would the systems themselves differentiate without "not on your system" exclusives? Quality of their services, quality of their hardware, peripherals, etc. All stuff that Sony happens to have largely neglected after unveiling their "not R WORD," but otherwise completely mundane console and a steady flow of the usual exclusive content? People are so used to the way things are done that alternatives just don't come to mind. Sony could easily have their own marketplace to compete with Steam/GOG/Win10 Store (lol), integrate Trophies, social features, etc on PC. They could support Linux. All of these things could happen in tandem with PS Computer or whatever they call the prebuilt boxes for console gamers.

While I agree that is strange that people want to be 'incentivized' to buy one box over another, I don't the think that console exclusives are "anti-consumer".

 

At the end of the day, as you've mentioned, there IS a market for $200-$400 boxes that run games on decent settings w/o any user technical proficiency required. And platforms holders have every right to serve that market AND differentiate themselves, via software, from their competition within that market.

 

They do compete via quality of services, hardware, and peripherals, but given the length of hardware cycles, there isn't much room for variation on that front in a cost efficient manner. Exclusive games is the only way to differentiate without taking hardware risks that could be potentially damning.

 

Console platform holders failing to release their games on PC isn't anti-consumer either- it's just bad business. If you are a PC gamer, It's easy to assume that they are trying to draw you into buying a box you don't want, just to play some exclusice games- but perhaps they just aren't targeting the PC market. That's their prerogative. It is certainly a missed opportunity- but it's not evil.

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