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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Join us. Be us. The grass is greener on our side. 

I'm getting a new laptop with the words "Gaming" in the title, am I joining the pc gamer crew.

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A forum dream team without cT? :mj:

Destiny took him away from us. Gone like a whisper in the wind.

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He hasnt posted in a while here, idk where he is :/

 

@@chaosTheory wherefore art thou

 

343 killed his interest in Halo with the MCC. Hasn't posted much since.

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You'll have to excuse any terse demeanor I may have because I'm SO tired of explaining this to people that started on H3 and have spent no meaningful time on H1.

 

First off, you just compared H1 and H2 to Snipers. Sorry, but no. They don't play like snipers. They allow you to punish people for poor positioning, but they don't play like snipers. Long range blue reticle shots are difficult, but they ALLOW you to kill someone if you have the skill. H3 does not. In this post you admit that you can't even kill a guy solo from street to street on ONSLAUGHT. That's not H1 playing like snipers, that's H3 playing like SMG starts. The fact that it can take upwards of 12 shots to kill someone cannon to cannon online on Narrows is fucking DUMB for a utility weapon. You shouldn't be able to just tank those shots if you get caught. And people bitch about H5's escapability. I challenge those people to refresh their memory on average kill times in default H3.

 

As for ranking the starting weapons, H1 is better, H2 is better bc of doubleshot, Reach's ZB DMR is better because its single shot and can actually kill people when they walk out in the open. And in a vacuum, the H5 magnum is better for the same reasons. The only reason it suffers is because of the sandbox that surrounds it, but the weapon itself is a WAY more deadly weapon in skilled hands than the fucking gimped ass H3 BR. I'm sorry, but if you catch somebody wiiiiide out in t he open and you don't even expect to finish your own kill, your utility weapon is garbage. The only reason it beats out H4 is because of descope. YES, optimal range BR fights in H3 are fun and skillful, but those points are lost for me when you can't even solo a kill in average BTB distance without the guy tanking 10 shots to get back to cover.

 

H2's standoffs were caused by the weapon respawn system and lack of powerups, not the BR (citation: H1 and v7 Reach's lack of standoffs). H5's map flow suffers from long respawn times in TS and absurd movement abilities that all but eliminate predictable pathing. H3 achieves its map flow by giving players a weapon that tickles players at normal rifle distance and forces them to run at each other other to make anything happen. H3 birthed the term 'linear aggression' for that reason, and the fact that maps just make players run at each other too. One of the only 2 assyms used at the highest level (Guardian) can't even be played in TS because the map flow is so garbage that oddball is the only way you can get players to move.

 

What you see as freedom of movement, I see as uneccesary gimping of skilled players by not allowing them to finish kills and letting unaware players get away with too much just because they're "far away" (street to street on Ons ISNT far btw). You can achieve the same fast and interesting map movement without neutering players by putting power ups and power weapons on fast static timers.

 

And regarding Lockout, all it EVER needed was a static snipe spawn and a 1 minute camo in green. Poof. Map fixed.

I wasn't really comparing H1/H2 to snipers, just stating the fact that spawning with a Sniper increases your 'high kill potential', not the mechanics or skill gap's involved in the games. You still do have to punish someone by hitting your shot with a sniper rifle if they are in a bad position or out in the open, and let's exclude Halo 5 where any drool cup can use the sniper with it's massive hit box to no scope or hit headshots while aiming at someone's thoracic spine. 

 

I' don't take any offense but I didn't start playing in Halo 3, I already said that I played Halo 1 (split screen/campaign...local) and I guess I started at Halo 2 for online play, probably more hours than any other halo title or comparable to my time in Halo 3. 

 

You cannot use default Halo 3 as your argument. I thought it would be a given that we were talking about MLG settings Halo 3. If you want to handicap my position like that then we have to assume Halo 2 is SMG popcorn starts, Reach has bloom and Armorlock/abilities, sprint, etc. The only way to play Halo 3 is on MLG settings, which aren't even a dramatic change. 

 

The thing is, Onslaught is a forge map and suffers from the Foundry registration issues/lag, but what you are totally omitting is the core mechanics of Halo 3, the fluid movement in strafing and gandhi hopping/jumping etc, that was much more fluid and less stiff than it's predecessors Halo1/2, so when you are strafing at an effective level/speed combined with leading your shots, combined with, yes, the ineffective registration/range of the gun itself to an extent, it is going to be near impossible to impossible to cleanly 4 shot someone across the map. That is how the game is. That is the range of the weapon, and I do not find a problem with that. 

 

"And people bitch about Halo 5's escapability" - Come on, Halo 5 has sprint, thrust, slide, clamber, spartan charge, ground pound and radar. To escape in Halo 3 took SKILL, you had to be sneaky like Pistola, it was a skill to move across the map and outsmart other players which was effectively stripped away in Halo 5 with all of the aforementioned features. Strafing actually mattered in Halo 3 where as you have to crouch-strafe like an absolute dickhead in Halo 5 and thrust/counter-thrust etc. and it's only effective because the aiming mechanics are so bad that it's harder to hit pistol shots than hitting any other utility shots in other Halo titles, oh and you can just AR people while crouch strafing. 

 

We can just agree to disagree about this because citing the Reach DMR as a better weapon than the H3 BR is laughable to me. I also don't consider double-shotting to be an inherent part of the H2 BR but that is less egregious imo. 

 

It's not worth arguing because I know what the case is here. There are a lot of people who are much worse at Halo 3 or downright terrible and think they are much better at H1/H2 (not saying you, but in general this is true). I'm not even trying to claim that Halo 3 has a higher skill gap than H1/H2, but I am trying to say that it's skill gap is EASILY third best in the series (MLG settings obviously) and it's a lot closer than what some people here think. 

 

I really don't think nading down weapons or executing random spawns should factor into a skill gap either. That is game knowledge. That is the reason Halo 1 has such a "legendary" skill gap IMO, because barely anyone fucking played it, so you have these super important features that barely anyone knows, and then kids with less ACTUAL SKILL in shooting the weapons will just have a massive advantage. It's like not knowing any of the spawns in Halo 3, not knowing any of the strat, but worse. Also Halo 1 was mostly played on PC and that was with a mouse no? 

 

I know that last paragraph is heresy here, but that's what I believe is the truth. Halo 1's skill gap is overrated because so few people played it and actually know the game/strategy of said game, and PC's were used by the highest populations that played the game. Don't get me wrong, I still think it's a high skill gap, but Teapot's signature is so hyperbolic when it comes to skill gap.

*Sorry, got a little LIT during this rant lmao. I'm sure most will disagree with the H1 sacrilege 

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I'm getting a new laptop with the words "Gaming" in the title, am I joining the pc gamer crew.

Awesome dude!  What will be your first game to install?

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Hey you guys want to know another game that gave free DLC?

 

Rainbow 6 Siege.

 

And that games not shit and is actually cool as fuck.

And that game struggled in the beginning in terms of player base. With all the free to play weekends, free DLC and updates it's now a very popular game on both console and pc.

Meanwhile look at what Halo 5 achieved after it's free to play weekend and updates, nothing worth a damn.

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Awesome dude!  What will be your first game to install?

Was there ever any doubt?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Star Wars: Empire At War

 

 

The fact that Neighbor is posting here again is weirding me out....

 

What happened

It's almost time to start that H6 hype train 
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I wasn't really comparing H1/H2 to snipers, just stating the fact that spawning with a Sniper increases your 'high kill potential', not the mechanics or skill gap's involved in the games. You still do have to punish someone by hitting your shot with a sniper rifle if they are in a bad position or out in the open, and let's exclude Halo 5 where any drool cup can use the sniper with it's massive hit box to no scope or hit headshots while aiming at someone's thoracic spine.

 

I' don't take any offense but I didn't start playing in Halo 3, I already said that I played Halo 1 (split screen/campaign...local) and I guess I started at Halo 2 for online play, probably more hours than any other halo title or comparable to my time in Halo 3.

 

You cannot use default Halo 3 as your argument. I thought it would be a given that we were talking about MLG settings Halo 3. If you want to handicap my position like that then we have to assume Halo 2 is SMG popcorn starts, Reach has bloom and Armorlock/abilities, sprint, etc. The only way to play Halo 3 is on MLG settings, which aren't even a dramatic change.

 

The thing is, Onslaught is a forge map and suffers from the Foundry registration issues/lag, but what you are totally omitting is the core mechanics of Halo 3, the fluid movement in strafing and gandhi hopping/jumping etc, that was much more fluid and less stiff than it's predecessors Halo1/2, so when you are strafing at an effective level/speed combined with leading your shots, combined with, yes, the ineffective registration/range of the gun itself to an extent, it is going to be near impossible to impossible to cleanly 4 shot someone across the map. That is how the game is. That is the range of the weapon, and I do not find a problem with that.

 

"And people bitch about Halo 5's escapability" - Come on, Halo 5 has sprint, thrust, slide, clamber, spartan charge, ground pound and radar. To escape in Halo 3 took SKILL, you had to be sneaky like Pistola, it was a skill to move across the map and outsmart other players which was effectively stripped away in Halo 5 with all of the aforementioned features. Strafing actually mattered in Halo 3 where as you have to crouch-strafe like an absolute dickhead in Halo 5 and thrust/counter-thrust etc. and it's only effective because the aiming mechanics are so bad that it's harder to hit pistol shots than hitting any other utility shots in other Halo titles, oh and you can just AR people while crouch strafing.

 

We can just agree to disagree about this because citing the Reach DMR as a better weapon than the H3 BR is laughable to me. I also don't consider double-shotting to be an inherent part of the H2 BR but that is less egregious imo.

 

It's not worth arguing because I know what the case is here. There are a lot of people who are much worse at Halo 3 or downright terrible and think they are much better at H1/H2 (not saying you, but in general this is true). I'm not even trying to claim that Halo 3 has a higher skill gap than H1/H2, but I am trying to say that it's skill gap is EASILY third best in the series (MLG settings obviously) and it's a lot closer than what some people here think.

 

I really don't think nading down weapons or executing random spawns should factor into a skill gap either. That is game knowledge. That is the reason Halo 1 has such a "legendary" skill gap IMO, because barely anyone fucking played it, so you have these super important features that barely anyone knows, and then kids with less ACTUAL SKILL in shooting the weapons will just have a massive advantage. It's like not knowing any of the spawns in Halo 3, not knowing any of the strat, but worse. Also Halo 1 was mostly played on PC and that was with a mouse no?

 

I know that last paragraph is heresy here, but that's what I believe is the truth. Halo 1's skill gap is overrated because so few people played it and actually know the game/strategy of said game, and PC's were used by the highest populations that played the game. Don't get me wrong, I still think it's a high skill gap, but Teapot's signature is so hyperbolic when it comes to skill gap.

*Sorry, got a little LIT during this rant lmao. I'm sure most will disagree with the H1 sacrilege

H3's movement has most definitely not as smooth as h2's.

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I wasn't really comparing H1/H2 to snipers, just stating the fact that spawning with a Sniper increases your 'high kill potential', not the mechanics or skill gap's involved in the games. You still do have to punish someone by hitting your shot with a sniper rifle if they are in a bad position or out in the open, and let's exclude Halo 5 where any drool cup can use the sniper with it's massive hit box to no scope or hit headshots while aiming at someone's thoracic spine.

 

I' don't take any offense but I didn't start playing in Halo 3, I already said that I played Halo 1 (split screen/campaign...local) and I guess I started at Halo 2 for online play, probably more hours than any other halo title or comparable to my time in Halo 3.

 

You cannot use default Halo 3 as your argument. I thought it would be a given that we were talking about MLG settings Halo 3. If you want to handicap my position like that then we have to assume Halo 2 is SMG popcorn starts, Reach has bloom and Armorlock/abilities, sprint, etc. The only way to play Halo 3 is on MLG settings, which aren't even a dramatic change.

 

The thing is, Onslaught is a forge map and suffers from the Foundry registration issues/lag, but what you are totally omitting is the core mechanics of Halo 3, the fluid movement in strafing and gandhi hopping/jumping etc, that was much more fluid and less stiff than it's predecessors Halo1/2, so when you are strafing at an effective level/speed combined with leading your shots, combined with, yes, the ineffective registration/range of the gun itself to an extent, it is going to be near impossible to impossible to cleanly 4 shot someone across the map. That is how the game is. That is the range of the weapon, and I do not find a problem with that.

 

"And people bitch about Halo 5's escapability" - Come on, Halo 5 has sprint, thrust, slide, clamber, spartan charge, ground pound and radar. To escape in Halo 3 took SKILL, you had to be sneaky like Pistola, it was a skill to move across the map and outsmart other players which was effectively stripped away in Halo 5 with all of the aforementioned features. Strafing actually mattered in Halo 3 where as you have to crouch-strafe like an absolute dickhead in Halo 5 and thrust/counter-thrust etc. and it's only effective because the aiming mechanics are so bad that it's harder to hit pistol shots than hitting any other utility shots in other Halo titles, oh and you can just AR people while crouch strafing.

 

We can just agree to disagree about this because citing the Reach DMR as a better weapon than the H3 BR is laughable to me. I also don't consider double-shotting to be an inherent part of the H2 BR but that is less egregious imo.

 

It's not worth arguing because I know what the case is here. There are a lot of people who are much worse at Halo 3 or downright terrible and think they are much better at H1/H2 (not saying you, but in general this is true). I'm not even trying to claim that Halo 3 has a higher skill gap than H1/H2, but I am trying to say that it's skill gap is EASILY third best in the series (MLG settings obviously) and it's a lot closer than what some people here think.

 

I really don't think nading down weapons or executing random spawns should factor into a skill gap either. That is game knowledge. That is the reason Halo 1 has such a "legendary" skill gap IMO, because barely anyone fucking played it, so you have these super important features that barely anyone knows, and then kids with less ACTUAL SKILL in shooting the weapons will just have a massive advantage. It's like not knowing any of the spawns in Halo 3, not knowing any of the strat, but worse. Also Halo 1 was mostly played on PC and that was with a mouse no?

 

I know that last paragraph is heresy here, but that's what I believe is the truth. Halo 1's skill gap is overrated because so few people played it and actually know the game/strategy of said game, and PC's were used by the highest populations that played the game. Don't get me wrong, I still think it's a high skill gap, but Teapot's signature is so hyperbolic when it comes to skill gap.

*Sorry, got a little LIT during this rant lmao. I'm sure most will disagree with the H1 sacrilege

How is quad shotting not part of the BRs skill, it's literally exclusive to that weapon.

 

The first half of your post was funny. The second half is just infuriating. I don't even have the will power to respond to this.

 

Just know that if we're doing non vanilla settings there is no universe where the H3 BR is better than the Reach DMR and you've said nothing as to why that's not true.

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I wasn't really comparing H1/H2 to snipers, just stating the fact that spawning with a Sniper increases your 'high kill potential', not the mechanics or skill gap's involved in the games. You still do have to punish someone by hitting your shot with a sniper rifle if they are in a bad position or out in the open, and let's exclude Halo 5 where any drool cup can use the sniper with it's massive hit box to no scope or hit headshots while aiming at someone's thoracic spine.

 

I' don't take any offense but I didn't start playing in Halo 3, I already said that I played Halo 1 (split screen/campaign...local) and I guess I started at Halo 2 for online play, probably more hours than any other halo title or comparable to my time in Halo 3.

 

You cannot use default Halo 3 as your argument. I thought it would be a given that we were talking about MLG settings Halo 3. If you want to handicap my position like that then we have to assume Halo 2 is SMG popcorn starts, Reach has bloom and Armorlock/abilities, sprint, etc. The only way to play Halo 3 is on MLG settings, which aren't even a dramatic change.

 

The thing is, Onslaught is a forge map and suffers from the Foundry registration issues/lag, but what you are totally omitting is the core mechanics of Halo 3, the fluid movement in strafing and gandhi hopping/jumping etc, that was much more fluid and less stiff than it's predecessors Halo1/2, so when you are strafing at an effective level/speed combined with leading your shots, combined with, yes, the ineffective registration/range of the gun itself to an extent, it is going to be near impossible to impossible to cleanly 4 shot someone across the map. That is how the game is. That is the range of the weapon, and I do not find a problem with that.

 

"And people bitch about Halo 5's escapability" - Come on, Halo 5 has sprint, thrust, slide, clamber, spartan charge, ground pound and radar. To escape in Halo 3 took SKILL, you had to be sneaky like Pistola, it was a skill to move across the map and outsmart other players which was effectively stripped away in Halo 5 with all of the aforementioned features. Strafing actually mattered in Halo 3 where as you have to crouch-strafe like an absolute dickhead in Halo 5 and thrust/counter-thrust etc. and it's only effective because the aiming mechanics are so bad that it's harder to hit pistol shots than hitting any other utility shots in other Halo titles, oh and you can just AR people while crouch strafing.

 

We can just agree to disagree about this because citing the Reach DMR as a better weapon than the H3 BR is laughable to me. I also don't consider double-shotting to be an inherent part of the H2 BR but that is less egregious imo.

 

It's not worth arguing because I know what the case is here. There are a lot of people who are much worse at Halo 3 or downright terrible and think they are much better at H1/H2 (not saying you, but in general this is true). I'm not even trying to claim that Halo 3 has a higher skill gap than H1/H2, but I am trying to say that it's skill gap is EASILY third best in the series (MLG settings obviously) and it's a lot closer than what some people here think.

 

I really don't think nading down weapons or executing random spawns should factor into a skill gap either. That is game knowledge. That is the reason Halo 1 has such a "legendary" skill gap IMO, because barely anyone fucking played it, so you have these super important features that barely anyone knows, and then kids with less ACTUAL SKILL in shooting the weapons will just have a massive advantage. It's like not knowing any of the spawns in Halo 3, not knowing any of the strat, but worse. Also Halo 1 was mostly played on PC and that was with a mouse no?

 

I know that last paragraph is heresy here, but that's what I believe is the truth. Halo 1's skill gap is overrated because so few people played it and actually know the game/strategy of said game, and PC's were used by the highest populations that played the game. Don't get me wrong, I still think it's a high skill gap, but Teapot's signature is so hyperbolic when it comes to skill gap.

*Sorry, got a little LIT during this rant lmao. I'm sure most will disagree with the H1 sacrilege

I can't respond now but I will. I think this post is very ignorant.

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TL:DR; The H5 magnum has laid the foundation for a proper utility weapon, and with better aim feel, a stronger position within the weapon’s sandbox, and a bit less assistance it could be the successor the CE magnum deserved in a Halo sequel (fingers crossed for H6)

 

First off, I want you all to know how dedicated I am, I wrote this entire thing up and managed to fat finger the keyboard and killed the browser losing it all. This time we’ll use a text editor and paste it in, thank you very much.

 

So, to add to that quote above, I want to link a post @MissingNope made on reddit prior to the MCC release that expounds on the CE pistol, and the CE sandbox overall that I think is relevant here:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/halo/comments/2e5401/halo_1_pistol_a_discussion_on_balance/

 

Now, given all that, I’d like to comment on what HardWay was saying about the CE pistol. What CE did best, and I would argue the rest of the series has either completely dropped, or floundered a bit with, is encapsulate the concept of a proper skill gap within a single weapon, rather than just on the scale of the game, or the sandbox in it’s entirety. It’s also a damn good skill gap too, the word that comes to mind is “natural”, and I’ll get to what I mean. The whole point of this is that I think the H5 magnum is the closest spiritual successor we’ve had to the CE pistol, but it fails in a few regards, and is tainted by its environment, but we’ll get to that.

 

The next best skill gap utility weapon to the CE pistol is probably the H2 BR, mostly because of its button combos. However, H2 loses points because its skill gap, or more specifically its skill gap progression is unnatural. What I mean by this is that between starting to play H2, to the point where you generally have a strong, consistent 4-5 shot BR is a smooth progression. Play more, focus on tightening up your aim, and you’ll hit it. However, you’re still far away from the skill ceiling, as you now need to work on the double, or even quad shots. The problem is that you don’t just get these from playing more, you need to either practice them outside of regular matches, or constantly attempt them in battles, and most likely fail and lose 1v1s because of it. This is in direct opposition to the CE progression, which comes from constantly playing, constantly tightening your aim, and gaining knowledge of CE’s strafe’s effect on shot registration.

 

I won’t comment much on Reach, as it’s by far my least played, and the one Halo that I have zero competitive experience with. I will say that I always thought bloom was a neat mechanic in theory, that is precision at range tied to rate of fire, but I’ll let someone else argue the issues with this in a competitive setting.

 

H4, which also had a natural skill gap progression, suffers from the lowest ceiling in the game. There are plenty of H4 sweaties (twisstedmindss and the like) that arguably had nearly 100% BR 4-shots. Aside from the recoil (which I hate hate hate in Halo games, especially with frequently used weapons), it was basically a super simple hitscan weapon with crazy amounts of assistance.

 

I think HardWay hit a lot of the right points in regards to H3, but to tie it into what I’m talking about here, while the H3 BR definitely has a decent skill gap to it, it suffers on other points. Given it’s projectile model, along with wonky H3 net code, it’s far too random. I mean, for god's sakes, have you guys seen the MCC video? Host in H3 literally has a 5-shot mid range BR, and like a 10-shot long range BR. Q/A, wut? However, it suffers mainly because of it’s lack of ability as a utility weapon, which is what HardWay seems to be mostly getting to. Compare what’s been said about the H3 BR, and it’s lack of ability, to what MissingNope said about CE’s utility.

 

So, to bring this all back to H5’s magnum. I know we could all sit here and argue that H5 did nothing for the series, but the person who made the push for the magnum’s position as the utility weapon deserves a lot of praise. You have to imagine there was a ton of push back to the concept, and I’m thankful we got to this point. Now, I put what little reputation I had on the line and said that I think the H5 magnum is the closest we have to a spiritual successor to CE pistol. The basically sole reason is this: H5 is the only Halo since CE where I have a 1v1 with someone, where we get into opposing strafes, and I feel that I won the battle because I accounted for the aim assists “pull” in order to land shots. This coincides with the fact that the range vs difficulty graph between the CE and H5 magnum are similar in that close range fights are just weird, and you won’t get them until you “get them”, mid range are fairly standard, and long range are possible but difficult (H5 definitely falls off here).

 

This is the exact opposite of the H2, H4, and H5 BR, where it’s point and shoot, regardless of distance or player momentum. However, as we all know the H5 magnum is far from perfect, although I’d argue it’s biggest fault is it’s environment. It’s true utility and players ability to grow with it is stunted by H5’s super inconsistent aim feel, and the sandbox issues, like multiple better mid-tier ranged weapons on map.

 

I do think there is slightly too much assist on the H5 magnum, or perhaps the wrong kind of assistance. This is completely speculation, but I’d almost argue that the pistol isn’t at it’s best in a perfect connection, LAN or LAN-like environment, because it’s more of a BR style hit scan direct shot weapon. By at it’s best I mean at it’s best as a balanced utility weapon. I think the games where I get that strafe CE style magnetism “pull” are where latency is coming into play and myself and the game are forced to adjust. That may sound absurd, but hey, we’re all guessing here, right?

 

The key to all this though is that the H5 magnum gives me hints of the CE magnum’s skill gap, except the ceiling is a bit too low and the floor is way to high. For instance, you can basically 5-shot perfect someone running in a straight line no problem in H5, just by placing your (red!) reticle on the person. For CE this is not the case, not only because of hitting the 3, but because the lead distance increases with player distance.

 

So, yeah. Like my tl:dr; said, the H5 magnum has laid the foundation for a proper utility weapon, and with better aim feel, a stronger position within the weapon’s sandbox, and a bit less assistance it could be the successor the CE magnum deserved in a Halo sequel (fingers crossed for H6)

This is a really good post with some good, interesting points.

 

My favorite part is how you describe the H2 double-shot and quad-shot as being unnatural to progress to in skillgap.

 

I absolutely hate the H2 button combos for this reason. Instead of learning to intuitively lead your shots correctly over time, you have to suddenly and awkwardly learn how to claw (which is uncomfortable for me personally), and execute obnoxious button combinations just to be able to keep up and kill people.

 

H2 button combos were only liked because they accidentally provided a bandaid fix to the otherwise poor base natural skillgap of the H2 BR. I have a similar opinion of H5's 'movement combos'.

 

Not quite sure I thoroughly understand your thoughts on the H5 Magnum though. It feels mostly like the Reach DMR with no bloom to me, which is not the worst thing, IMO.

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Lots of Stuff

 

I've never heard anyone who has played both Halo 2 and Halo 3 praise Halo 3 for feeling more fluid or having a better strafe. Halo 3 was slow and clunky in comparison to Halo 2. I don't think escaping in Halo 3 is some skill induced quality to write home about. I understand that map movement and being unpredictable in a game that had predictable movement is a good skill quality and yes, pistola did that wonderfully. There's a difference in escaping and moving around in a sneaky fashion though. Escaping required you to strongside against a BR with bad spread/hit detection.

 

I don't know why you don't consider the games intricacies to be part of the skill gap. That would eliminate all button combos too right? Wave Dashing in smash, timing weapons in quake etc. That's game knowledge too right? Wouldn't an abundance of required game knowledge just increase the skill gap further by raising the skill ceiling? Saying someone with "actual skill" is at a disadvantage to someone with game knowledge just sounds odd, as if actual skill is determined by having a steady shot only and not awareness of their surroundings.

 

I also don't know any H1 player that is worse at H3 than H1 unless that H1 player did not try to learn the game competitively. Team Classic almost took Final Boss at MLG Meadowlands 2008. One of the best CE players in the world, LegendPimps was on that team. I think in an early winners bracket round Final Boss was taken to a game 3 by a bunch of random h1 players. The only people I have seen that aren't good at H3 are the ones who had no desire to play it. Pros that have LAN'd with top CE players are way better at 3 than they are at CE, despite some of them knowing or claiming to know the games depth. I even consider myself to be a better Halo 3 player than Halo CE player despite knowing as much as I do about CE. Throughout my years competing, it wasn't till Halo 3 did I feel like I had a chance to go pro because the physical skill gap that separated people was so small. I would even argue that most of the people one these forums who praise CE are better at 3 than they are at CE.

 

Last is the argument which seems like its population based. The skill gap is small because nobody played it is not something I agree with. I agree that a game will be pushed even farther with a bigger population than a small one but it doesn't mean one has a higher or lower skill gap. Shadowrun was one of the least populated games to touch the MLG circuit and still has one of the biggest skill gaps to date. Despite how few people play CE in comparison to other AAA titles, there aren't many shooters out there that have continued to evolve over a decade and a half. CE's been pushed way farther than Halo 3.

 

My signature might be exaggerated a bit and was made in 08. I have no idea what the other games would look like, but it really isn't some major stretch. I never trade games with top players in CE, in fact I barely ever come close and it's much more standard for someone of my caliber to get crushed by Patch and Legend like 15/20 - 50. In Halo 2 I could at least make the games more respectable when playing against top players or even in the top 32 caliber. Come Halo 3 and I am literally taking games from pros constantly. One thing to mention is it was at the games release, where everyone pretty much has an equal chance to improve to the top. Regardless, that wouldn't happen in earlier games. It's not like I improved a ridiculous amount over the years, because I'm still getting crushed in CE today.

 

I played a lot of Halo 3 and enjoyed my time playing it. When I think back about the game, there is a lot about it that I don't like or think is competitive. I will give Halo 3 some credit though. While I dislike the BR, it was clear to me that it was intentional. Maps were made to compliment this decision and forced people to push forward into an effective range. Weapons/power ups influenced movement but it was the lack of range that really forced people to push as a group. The gun seems to compliment the MLG maps very well. I've heard two things about it. 1) that they were designed with the BR in mind. 2) maps were designed with the 360's limits in mind, which is why you have lots of maps that have this "50 yard line" to break up the maps.

 

I think if you had more significant experience with CE you might understand it better. I'm not saying early tournaments filled up record numbers, but there were lots of people playing this game and the competitive scene was never on PC. The fact that PC is even brought up leads me to assume your experience. 

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How is quad shotting not part of the BRs skill, it's literally exclusive to that weapon.

 

The first half of your post was funny. The second half is just infuriating. I don't even have the will power to respond to this.

 

Just know that if we're doing non vanilla settings there is no universe where the H3 BR is better than the Reach DMR and you've said nothing as to why that's not true.

Guaranteed he thinks I was talking about default bloom DMR and not v7. I would also wager he hasn't played reach since Q1 2011.

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i just want the classic forerunner art back :/

 

feel like a return to that is coming.  HW2 is more forerunner and Bonnie Ross at the DICE conference alluded to art style as well as being an issue with the community.

 

I'm getting a new laptop with the words "Gaming" in the title, am I joining the pc gamer crew.

 

lol nice.  What game are you getting first?

 

Good post, this is something I am specifically looking into. 

 

YASS!!!! been enjoying your posts here lately.

 

The thing is, Onslaught is a forge map and suffers from the Foundry registration issues/lag, but what you are totally omitting is the core mechanics of Halo 3, the fluid movement in strafing and gandhi hopping/jumping etc, that was much more fluid and less stiff than it's predecessors Halo1/2, so when you are strafing at an effective level/speed combined with leading your shots, combined with, yes, the ineffective registration/range of the gun itself to an extent, it is going to be near impossible to impossible to cleanly 4 shot someone across the map. That is how the game is. That is the range of the weapon, and I do not find a problem with that. 

 

The problem with that is the randomness of it.  If you have a player in H3 that is just outside RRR and you shoot them in the exact same spot standing still, it can take a different number of shots to kill them from trial to trial.  That is a problem. Inside RRR on LAN, its not a problem, but the internet makes it worse.

 

We can just agree to disagree about this because citing the Reach DMR as a better weapon than the H3 BR is laughable to me. I also don't consider double-shotting to be an inherent part of the H2 BR but that is less egregious imo. 

 

1) day 1 vanilla DMR < H3 BR < NBNS Reach DMR

2) Double shotting, quad shotting, nade and BXR reloads is absolutely an inherent part of the BR.  They were glitches sure, but they were so consistent and repeatedly executable that they became a feature of the weapon.  You either learned to do those things or you were left behind.  Just because the skillfulness of some of the Halo 2 mechanics were a happy accident, doesnt mean they dont count.

I really don't think nading down weapons or executing random spawns should factor into a skill gap either. That is game knowledge.

 

How is game knowledge not a part of the skill gap? that doesn't compute to me.  The more you know about the game and maps than the other players, the better you will be able to perform, the greater the skill.  All things being equal, the player that has the higher "Halo IQ" will win 10/10 times.  That IS skill gap.

 

That is the reason Halo 1 has such a "legendary" skill gap IMO, because barely anyone fucking played it, so you have these super important features that barely anyone knows, and then kids with less ACTUAL SKILL in shooting the weapons will just have a massive advantage. It's like not knowing any of the spawns in Halo 3, not knowing any of the strat, but worse. Also Halo 1 was mostly played on PC and that was with a mouse no? 

 

No it wasn't.  XBC all day. H1 skill gap is definitely the highest. I have a lot of experience with every halo game.  I can hang with players better than me less in Halo 1 than any other game.  n=1 sample size i know, but that really tells me all i need to know.

 

Pared this down but yeah... no.

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