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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Last night I had five or so sudden and random lag outs of Halo 5, specifically. Tonight I already have three. Seriously, what in the fuck is with this game's stability.

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You can only pick one of a certain character, so what are you even talking about?

Now they changed it, but last season you could stack one type of hero, and the aiming is so bad that a legit strat was to pick 6 tobjorns.

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 GoW4 has an extremely high skill gap, equal starts, and clear arena shooter influence. Also, it's a sci-fi shooter, so there's that.

 

*raises eyebrow*

 

Weapon pickups and multiple weapons at once I guess?

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*raises eyebrow*

 

Weapon pickups and multiple weapons at once I guess?

Yeah, it has even [enough] starts and all weapons on map on static timers. That's about where the similarities end though. Incredible game regardless

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*raises eyebrow*

 

Weapon pickups and multiple weapons at once I guess?

 

I'm not saying it's an arena shooter by any means. lol. Just a few important elements that take cues from the genre, including high level movement that pretty much only involves precise directional and camera input and one button. Equal starts (in competitive settings) and on-map weapons on timers as well.

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Have you played OW on console?, cuz I have, and the sniper class is literally unplayable , the aiming system is so bad that even in the higher ranks you see people stacking tobjorns

 

Yes, there are other characters (Widow is the only one that is pretty much not worth using), they've added character restrictions (no stacking), and complaining about aiming is pretty funny (I am not saying it's good) considering the piece of shit aiming system in this game. Have I missed anything? How many months has it been since you played it?

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Peak male vitality.

aIi4RFE.png

 

I wanna plus rep it so many times. I imagine this was the pose Trump struck before goin' in for it.

 

Console OW (LUL) , and the rest are modern military shooters that have 0 competitive value . And pls don't bring competitive CoD that is more of a joke than Halo4.

OW's aiming is much better now, and comp settings only allow one of each hero per team.

GoW 4 is NOT a military shooter, like, at all. Please watch some gameplay of it. It's quite unique, and very, very good.

RS:S is one of the best competitive shooters going right now. That game is super deep and you are doing a disservice to yourself by writing it off.

BF1 is a really solid package. The only reason it's not regarded as a comp shooter is its player count in its most popular modes.

TF2 has a lot of built in casual garbage like sentry turrets, but the movement skillgap is real and the skill ceiling in that game is absurdly high. 

 

But yes CoD is dirty brown water trash that people should feel ashamed for playing.

 

Anyways, the point is that theres actually quite a few really great choices on XB1 right now.

 

Have you played OW on console?, cuz I have, and the sniper class is literally unplayable , the aiming system is so bad that even in the higher ranks you see people stacking tobjorns

 

Aiming has been patched. Might want to give it a shot again. A few new free characters, maps and modes too. It's gotten pretty great support.

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none that have better competive AND casual offerings, imo.

 

Rocket League.

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Chiming in on this strongholds discussion...

 

While I definitely haven't played enough (read: any) strongholds - because I don't own an XB1 anymore - I'm fairly certain that you can reduce any gametype that's ever existed in the Halo franchise to "move around the map a certain way while killing people". I'm a firm believer that one cannot judge a map or a gametype in isolation...unless it's peerlessly bad for any conceivable purpose...you have to judge them together. Everyone knows that Lockout is one of the worst TS maps in history, but for oddball it is damn near the top, if not the best in the franchise. You can make the argument that a "good" map is one that can support all gametypes or vice versa, and while you wouldn't be incorrect from one particular perspective, I find that particular point of view to be somewhat stifling from a creative perspective. Not every map is, can be, or should be Midship. The spirit of linking these two things together is borne from the idea that a map, a gametype, and the game mechanics are the trinity of particulars that make up the game experience. As the game mechanics are static, we find that the purpose of the map is to create an environment that, in an arena-style FPS, encourages circular/cyclical flow, as well as lending influence to the pace of the game through how relatively open or sectional the map geometry is and what traversal routes are provided. The purpose of the gametype, meanwhile, is to vary the point of focus in-game to bolster the idiosyncrasies of the map as well as introducing strategic differences in the way the game is played, such as oddball necessitating the removal of one player from the overall shooting formula. 

 

Zone-based objectives especially like SH, KOTH, and territories are even more bound on a case-by-case basis to the map they're being played on, because the objective is squarely tied to a piece of map geometry and therefore will either thrive or suffer depending on whether the map can provide the proper housing for the type of strategy that these gametypes focus upon. KOTH is known to work fairly well on a map like Battle Creek, where the hill locations are often obscured from direct lines of sight and require modest travel to reach, especially immediately after spawning. Can you imagine playing KOTH on Ascension, or Chill Out? Both would be complete disasters for opposite reasons. So with that said, one cannot pass judgment on strongholds as a gametype without also condemning a map or maps in the process. What has been outlined thus far are flaws in the implementation of strongholds, rather than the actual premise of the gametype. It would be as if Pit CTF were played with one flag spawn in long hall and the other in sword room - that would be absolutely ludicrous, but would not invalidate CTF as a gametype (nor would The Pit being a generally piss-poor map for anything that involves slayer or base-related gameplay). It's important to look at what the gametype as a naked concept brings to the table, how and if that concept is currently being presented poorly in-game, and making any adjustments as necessary. I don't know how malleable the strongholds gametype is, but I'm sure that with H5's wealth of options just about anything can be changed about it. 

 

Strongholds as a bare-bones idea does offer a unique gameplay experience. If the application of it is wrong, then we need to correct that. 

 

If we can't correct it because we can't get non-shit maps into rotation, then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Chiming in on this strongholds discussion...

 

While I definitely haven't played enough (read: any) strongholds - because I don't own an XB1 anymore - I'm fairly certain that you can reduce any gametype that's ever existed in the Halo franchise to "move around the map a certain way while killing people". I'm a firm believer that one cannot judge a map or a gametype in isolation...unless it's peerlessly bad for any conceivable purpose...you have to judge them together. Everyone knows that Lockout is one of the worst TS maps in history, but for oddball it is damn near the top, if not the best in the franchise. You can make the argument that a "good" map is one that can support all gametypes or vice versa, and while you wouldn't be incorrect from one particular perspective, I find that particular point of view to be somewhat stifling from a creative perspective. Not every map is, can be, or should be Midship. The spirit of linking these two things together is borne from the idea that a map, a gametype, and the game mechanics are the trinity of particulars that make up the game experience. As the game mechanics are static, we find that the purpose of the map is to create an environment that, in an arena-style FPS, encourages circular/cyclical flow, as well as lending influence to the pace of the game through how relatively open or sectional the map geometry is and what traversal routes are provided. The purpose of the gametype, meanwhile, is to vary the point of focus in-game to bolster the idiosyncrasies of the map as well as introducing strategic differences in the way the game is played, such as oddball necessitating the removal of one player from the overall shooting formula.

 

Zone-based objectives especially like SH, KOTH, and territories are even more bound on a case-by-case basis to the map they're being played on, because the objective is squarely tied to a piece of map geometry and therefore will either thrive or suffer depending on whether the map can provide the proper housing for the type of strategy that these gametypes focus upon. KOTH is known to work fairly well on a map like Battle Creek, where the hill locations are often obscured from direct lines of sight and require modest travel to reach, especially immediately after spawning. Can you imagine playing KOTH on Ascension, or Chill Out? Both would be complete disasters for opposite reasons. So with that said, one cannot pass judgment on strongholds as a gametype without also condemning a map or maps in the process. What has been outlined thus far are flaws in the implementation of strongholds, rather than the actual premise of the gametype. It would be as if Pit CTF were played with one flag spawn in long hall and the other in sword room - that would be absolutely ludicrous, but would not invalidate CTF as a gametype (nor would The Pit being a generally piss-poor map for anything that involves slayer or base-related gameplay). It's important to look at what the gametype as a naked concept brings to the table, how and if that concept is currently being presented poorly in-game, and making any adjustments as necessary. I don't know how malleable the strongholds gametype is, but I'm sure that with H5's wealth of options just about anything can be changed about it.

 

Strongholds as a bare-bones idea does offer a unique gameplay experience. If the application of it is wrong, then we need to correct that.

 

If we can't correct it because we can't get non-shit maps into rotation, then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Okay. I appreciate this post and understand 100% what you're getting at but there is no universe where strongholds will ever be anything more than decent, no matter the map.

 

If the zones are spread out to roughly encompass the entire footprint of the map we'll have the same exact scenario we've been discussing and seen in years of other shooters (Destiny, COD, Halo, battlefield). If you compress the zones to fight the issues we've been discussing you create Empire. If you greatly separate them to solve the issues we've been discussing you create huge dead space. This is why we've been saying without compromising the player count or objective count there's no good solution

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I'm not sure I believe that. The main contention being brought up is that strongholds doesn't differentiate itself enough from base slayer due to the way the spawn system works. While we can't control the ground-level spawn mechanics, we can influence map design to compensate for it, and otherwise we can fabricate maps that make effectively holding stronghold locations a very inconvenient affair. While I agree that predictable spawns are a skillful component of Halo, a truly random spawn system is a key anti-spawn camping measure. However, as I'm fairly sure H5's spawn system doesn't work on any kind of randomness, I again blame this on the map design - as you did, and continue to do so. Separation does not need to be created by large geometric areas, a wall and ceiling works just fine (wow did we forget those used to exist, Halo devs). Hell, even with larger play spaces, wouldn't it be great if we actually incorporated teleporters for once in Halo's post-2004 life? 

 

One thing we're also forgetting is that strongholds is still a fluid gametype in which zones trade hands constantly. If the very nature of strongholds ensured that the team with two plots could regularly defend against every attack, then we might have a serious problem, but I don't see that being the case. The strategy inherent within the strongholds gametype is at what pace, from what angle, and with how many teammates to cycle zones. Let's not forget that there are still power items on map in objective gametypes, which should further encourage cycling to non-zone areas of the map as well. 

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Going off of this quote, I would like to say that most of the default dev maps that Strongholds is played on are absolutely terrible for the gametype.

 

Rig and Plaza both have a Nest hill that easily overlooks a Basement/Bottom Mid hill, with the last hill boxed away in a corner. These maps are notorious for the absurd strength of the ideal 2-plot setup, and I think they completely undermine the value of the Strongholds gametype.

 

Then you have Empire, which is even worse, with the symmetrical base hills both being easily capped with the majority of the match becoming an absolutely indecisive clusterfuck while trying to fight over bottom mid.

 

The only good map left for Strongholds is Eden, where not a single hill becomes a mindless clusterfuck and at the same time the ideal 2-plot setup is no where near as disproportionately strong as on the first 2 maps.

 

Blue base may be the least desirable hill on Eden, but it is still viable enough to make do with having both it and either Catwalk to somewhat overlook it, or Red Nest to almost completely lock down Rockets when needed and/or focus fire back at Catwalk. There is a lot more potential for rotating Strongholds on Eden and is why it is so much better than the other 3 maps.

 

Rig, Plaza, and Empire should NOT have Strongholds played on them and be removed from the gametype, and better maps for Strongholds should be made via Forge or something.

Bumping for hopeful relevance from the previous page, where it got buried.

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Bumping for hopeful relevance from the previous page, where it got buried.

While I do like how Eden plays, I also think that maps with the preferred 2 cap (rig, plaza) also work well.

 

When you watch close matches on these gametypes , much of the game time is spent with neither team having The strong 2 cap, but both scratching to at least achieve it. It seems like this where most of the interesting plays are made because you know exactly what each team would like to do, ideally, but they are in each other's way. In these scenearios, there's a ton of variance in execution and interesting decision making required for each team.

 

I'll post this plaza match again, because it's a great example of the game NOT completely centering around a team resting on a 2 cap.

Rather, it centers on how efficiently they can play out of less than ideal situations and how well they can 3 cap.

 

Str8 narrowly won this map with just 39 of their points coming from having Nest and Bottom Mid. They had 25 points from a poor mans setup,and a game swinging 36 pts from just 2 trip caps. They had the ONLY spawn trap of the entire game DURING one of their trip caps (which flies directly in the face of @@MultiLockOn 's argument about Trip Cap randomness)

 

Optic lost, despite holding the better 2cap for a whopping 46 pts. What actually cost them the game was their inability to hold 3 caps as effectively as Str8 (3 trip caps for just 23 pts) and their inability to convert their poor man setups (27 pts) into Better scenarios. Their final chance at a comeback was lost because they failed to maintain a weak 2 cap (yard + mid).

 

At higher levels of play, I disagree that the strength of singular 2cap positions undermines the gametype. It creates a clear point of contention, and forces teams to adapt effeciently when the better scenario is unavailable.

 

In the match posted 43% of points scored were out of the strong 2 cap. While each team leaned on the strong 2 cap, THE MAJORITY of the game was played under different conditions (this again flies counter to the argument that the game is about sitting on the strong 2 cap). The winner was the team who played better under those different conditions. And this is the case anytime both teams are playing well.

 

When the game first launched teams simply tried to babysit the strong 2 cap, but that was because they had a simple understanding of how the gametype works. This just isnt the case anymore.

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Yeah, it has even [enough] starts and all weapons on map on static timers. That's about where the similarities end though. Incredible game regardless

Arena shooters traditionally never had static timers.

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I see this strongholds "debate" as more akin to arguing about abortion, capital punishment and gun control. Nobody is going to be swayed regardless of any evidence, real or contrived, from either side.

 

Ill just leave it at that and vote with my rep

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Really frustrating to see 343 fail to optimize all the ball game types they decided to add in one big package, including the spawns, player traits, and even the frickin ball designs (where is the flaming skull man)? Gosh, why do we have to be in this cycle of not being able to add game types because 343 can't put in the initial effort to make them work in the first place?

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Last night I had five or so sudden and random lag outs of Halo 5, specifically. Tonight I already have three. Seriously, what in the fuck is with this game's stability.

 

But they fixed it since people aren't getting banned for lag outs anymore right??  :kappa:

 

#343Logic

 

Seriously though, i know they are "still working on it" but what the fuck is taking so long.

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I see this strongholds "debate" as more akin to arguing about abortion, capital punishment and gun control. Nobody is going to be swayed regardless of any evidence, real or contrived, from either side.

 

Ill just leave it at that and vote with my rep

TBH, I didn't really think about the game play of strongholds until Multi began comparing it to slayer in regards to similar setups. I still think it's fun to watch in competitive games, but was the removal of KoTH and oddball worth the addition? No.

 

And please, the way you word that last sentence sounds like you're willing to downvote a disagreement between your opinion and someone else's. If you're down voting the presentation of the opinion, fine, but I hope you're not just doing that because you don't share the same ideas.

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And please, the way you word that last sentence sounds like you're willing to downvote a disagreement between your opinion and someone else's. If you're down voting the presentation of the opinion, fine, but I hope you're not just doing that because you don't share the same ideas.

 

Yeah, that's my job @@Apoll0:kappa:

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And please, the way you word that last sentence sounds like you're willing to downvote a disagreement between your opinion and someone else's. If you're down voting the presentation of the opinion, fine, but I hope you're not just doing that because you don't share the same ideas.

 

LOL.  Depends on how those differing opinions are expressed.  If you are a straight up dick about it, refuse to acknowledge any kind of legitimacy with reasoned and well supported counter arguments, or try to insult others intelligence along the way i will absolutely downvote the fuck out of you.  Needless to say, there was a lot of + and - rep coming from me the last couple days.

 

And besides, rep is just fake internet points from people that have 0 influence on your actual physical livelihood or relationships.  Are we really caring why people are up or down repping now?

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Well gold rep is enough of a goal for people to make as many memes or convincing posts as possible. It IS a part of their physical livelihood. ;)

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LOL.  Depends on how those differing opinions are expressed.  If you are a straight up dick about it, refuse to acknowledge any kind of legitimacy with reasoned and well supported counter arguments, or try to insult others intelligence along the way i will absolutely downvote the fuck out of you.  Needless to say, there was a lot of + and - rep coming from me the last couple days.

 

And besides, rep is just fake internet points from people that have 0 influence on your actual physical livelihood or relationships.  Are we really caring why people are up or down repping now?

 

You'd be surprised how much people care about their internet points around here.  :simms:

 

I can think of two off of the top of my head that get real  :salt:  when they see RED after they post.  :glasses:

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You'd be surprised how much people care about their internet points around here.  :simms:

 

I can think of two off of the top of my head that get real  :salt:  when they see RED after they post.  :glasses:

My new years resolution was to stop caring about rep. 

 

It's not going well.

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And please, the way you word that last sentence sounds like you're willing to downvote a disagreement between your opinion and someone else's. If you're down voting the presentation of the opinion, fine, but I hope you're not just doing that because you don't share the same ideas.

Let's be honest, that's exactly what everyone does around here.

 

Comparing H5 favourably with a previous Halo that isn't 4? You're gunna get downvoted no matter how you present your opinion.

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