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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I think he whole spawn trap confusion comes down to whether or not the team manipulating spawns is actually in position to defend the exits of that spawn. They may be manipulating spawns by being in the Strongholds, but that doesn't mean they are actually trapping them there. In PLENTY of situations, that team can fly out of their forced spawn unpunished because the "controlling" team is not yet in good enough position to properly "trap" them in their spawn.

Let's say we're playing Sanc CTF. We're 2 down and they're 4 down. I'm in their hut and my teammate is on their flag. They'll probably spawn rocks. We manipulated their spawn, but they are hardly "trapped".

So yes, there is a difference between spawn manipulation and spawn trapping, and I think it's an important distinction.

In an ideal scenario, SH map control looks a lot like Slayer map control. But there are so many other factors in play that make SH play very differently. It's a fun discussion, but it's ultimately silly bc anyone actually playing the two gametypes will notice plenty of differences and see that they both have their own merit and unique style.

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Everyone seems to be so mad at each other. The state of Halo has turned us all into bitter old cunts (me included). Dan Ayoub is out there somewhere laughing at us while counting all those MCC profits.

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The way the map flows (in an ideal scenario) in SH and TS is similar. You force the team to spawn in one corner, you choke their spawn by killing the first 1 or 2 players to push out, then you use your numbers advantage to kill the other two. This forces them to spawn in the opposite corner and you rinse-repeat.

 

In practice they flow differently due to 2 factors:

 

1. If you are the team that just collapsed, provided you don't have control of the SH you just slayed around, you are delayed while you cap it giving the down team a chance to get into better positions.

 

2. In Slayer, the incentive for the down team to push out of those spawns is much lower. It's in their best interest to crouch and wait for a pick before attempting to gain control. This is why I think Slayer compares unfavorably to SH in 4v4.

 

Even if you were to convince 343 that Slayer and Strongholds are redundant and one should be removed from competitive play, and they then asked pro players which one should be removed. 99% of pro players would say Slayer. And they would be right.

Which one is "better" is different on what you value more. Speed for the sake of speed, or decision making.

 

Strongholds is going to force plays because the score is always counting. Slayer might have an identical strategy but gives the team's the option to execute it however they feel free.

 

Empire strongholds for example, isn't fast due to the need to quickly outplay the other team. It's fast because you don't have a choice.

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The way the map flows (in an ideal scenario) in SH and TS is similar. You force the team to spawn in one corner, you choke their spawn by killing the first 1 or 2 players to push out, then you use your numbers advantage to kill the other two. This forces them to spawn in the opposite corner and you rinse-repeat.

 

In practice they flow differently due to 2 factors:

 

1. If you are the team that just collapsed, provided you don't have control of the SH you just slayed around, you are delayed while you cap it giving the down team a chance to get into better positions.

 

2. In Slayer, the incentive for the down team to push out of those spawns is much lower. It's in their best interest to crouch and wait for a pick before attempting to gain control. This is why I think Slayer compares unfavorably to SH in 4v4.

 

Even if you were to convince 343 that Slayer and Strongholds are redundant and one should be removed from competitive play, and they then asked pro players which one should be removed. 99% of pro players would say Slayer. And they would be right.

I don't think which one should be removed was the argument, I think just trying nail the point in and be really damn sure about it was the argument.

 

Really, it depends on the map itself, and the supporting gametypes around it.

 

If we had KOTH, Assualt and Oddball, I would say remove SH

 

Since we don't have any of those three in the circuit, I say WHAT THE SHIT IS WRONG WITH YOU 343.

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No, map design dictates how much room they have on a spawn trap. And yes it is semantics. If you don't call spawning bunker on Rig or Cafe on Plaza a spawn trap you are just outright wrong. That is 100% the most effective spawn trap on those maps in SH.

Yes those are spawn traps. But they aren't achieved by simply capping 2 strongholds. They are achieved by blocking the right spawns, regardless of which Strongholds you have.

 

You arent forcing cafe spawns simply by capping bottom mid and nest. You CAN force cafe spawns even if you have a 3 cap.

 

 

The argument that these folks are presenting is that capping two hills automatically grants a spawn trap, and then 3capping robs you of your spawn trap.neither of these things are true.

 

Are spawn traps desirable in SH? yes. Are they automatically obtained by getting a 2 cap, no? Are they automatically lost by getting a 3 cap? No

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I think he whole spawn trap confusion comes down to whether or not the team manipulating spawns is actually in position to defend the exits of that spawn. They may be manipulating spawns by being in the Strongholds, but that doesn't mean they are actually trapping them there. In PLENTY of situations, that team can fly out of their forced spawn unpunished because the "controlling" team is not yet in gods enough position to properly "trap" them in their spawn.

 

Let's say we're playing Sanc CTF. We're 2 down and they're 4 down. I'm in their hut and my teammate is on their flag. They'll probably spawn rocks. We manipulated their spawn, but they are hardly "trapped".

 

So yes, there is a difference between spawn manipulation and spawn trapping, and I think it's an important distinction.

 

In an ideal scenario, SH map control looks a lot like Slayer map control. But there are so many other factors in play that make SH play very differently. It's a fun discussion, but it's ultimately silly bc anyone actually playing he two gametypes will notice plenty of differences and see that they both have their own merit and unique style.

A team not being good enough to execute a strategy doesn't make a gametype not broken.

 

I'll repeat what I said earlier, if a map plays beautifully under every test and has players rotating and moving and awesome gunfights are happening then that's great. But if you throw a $100000 prize pool for a match and all of a sudden the game comes screeching to a halt and no one moves, then the map is broken. Because at the absolute highest level of play the best strategy is to not move, and the same goes for strongholds.

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Yes those are spawn traps. But they aren't achieved by simply capping 2 strongholds. They are achieved by blocking the right spawns, regardless of which Strongholds you have.

 

You arent forcing cafe spawns simply by capping bottom mid and nest.

 

 

The argument that these folks are presenting is that capping two hills automatically grants a spawn trap, and then 3capping robs you of your spawn trap.

Ah I see. I thought it was just about what a spawn trap was lol. Im pretty sure the SH you have don't influence spawns at all. You could have a 2 cap but still block the wrong spawns so that makes sense
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I think he whole spawn trap confusion comes down to whether or not the team manipulating spawns is actually in position to defend the exits of that spawn. They may be manipulating spawns by being in the Strongholds, but that doesn't mean they are actually trapping them there. In PLENTY of situations, that team can fly out of their forced spawn unpunished because the "controlling" team is not yet in gods enough position to properly "trap" them in their spawn.

 

Let's say we're playing Sanc CTF. We're 2 down and they're 4 down. I'm in their hut and my teammate is on their flag. They'll probably spawn rocks. We manipulated their spawn, but they are hardly "trapped".

 

So yes, there is a difference between spawn manipulation and spawn trapping, and I think it's an important distinction.

 

In an ideal scenario, SH map control looks a lot like Slayer map control. But there are so many other factors in play that make SH play very differently. It's a fun discussion, but it's ultimately silly bc anyone actually playing he two gametypes will notice plenty of differences and see that they both have their own merit and unique style.

Stop manipulating words. You trapped them and you know you did.

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Ah I see. I thought it was just about what a spawn trap was lol. Im pretty sure the SH you have don't influence spawns at all. You could have a 2 cap but still block the wrong spawns so that makes sense

The SHs themselves have no influence what so ever, but Multi had been giving lessons on game designed based around that false premise + other false premises.

 

And has changed the definition of spawn trap in the process.

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I don't think which one should be removed was the argument, I think just trying nail the point in and be really damn sure about it was the argument.

 

Really, it depends on the map itself, and the supporting gametypes around it.

 

If we had KOTH, Assualt and Oddball, I would say remove SH

 

Since we don't have any of those three in the circuit, I say WHAT THE SHIT IS WRONG WITH YOU 343.

 

Oddball and Assault have very serious problems in this game. Both due to the maps we have and the way the gametypes function (Bomb has some really bad spawn issues, and has always suffered from low-scoring, drag out games. Oddball again has spawning issues, and a large "attacking-team" advantage due to movement and the relative power of a numbers advantage in this game.) I'd love to see them but they still need re-worked before being implemented in H5. Solutions to the gametype's issues need to be produced and I haven't really seen that from 343 or the community.

 

KOTH, I'll admit I haven't adequately tested. In theory it should suffer from the same issues Oddball does, but to a lesser extent. Something akin to Extraction, where you have to control a point for a set stretch of time and then it moves might be a better answer for this game than classic KOTH. But I do think it should work if something like that can be done.

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How does a team effectively camp outside of a zone that is 1/3 - 1/2 of the entire map?

 

You can't TRAP someone in an area of that size with so many routes or of it.

I can, and I do, especially when the gametype I'm playing encourages me to do so. 

 

You know what's more fun than that?  

 

The dynamic spawns that are characteristic of Oddball and KoTH.  Defending a single, central point on the map is much harder, because the gametype it'self is not encouraging map positioning that leads to spawn trapping or even spawn manipulation, if Hard VVay would.  That is especially why I love Oddball; because you defend a dynamic single point, and the spawns of the offense are even more unpredictable.   Fun to watch, play, never gets stale.

 

SH gets about as stale as 3 week old kale chips left out in a dry Nevadian winter. 

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By that logic, ctf is also about spawn trapping

Most definitely not to the extent of SH. Aggression is gonna play the biggest factor in scoring objectives in CTF because you have to move from your ideal set up to not only grab, but capture the enemy flag. Your constant kills from spawn traps do nothing to help your team if you're not willing to actively play the objective. There is little incentive to push from your set up in SH because not only will you be earning points regardless of your push to the enemy spawn (for as long as your two bases aren't taken), but the majority of maps have power weapon placements that favor set ups over map cycling. Not really a strong conclusion based on what's being argued.
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The SHs themselves have no influence what so ever, but Multi had been giving lessons on game designed based around that false premise + other false premises.

 

And has changed the definition of spawn trap in the process.

No, you're right. Strongholds don't influence spawns, but players do. Explain to me how you capture a stronghold without a player standing in it. You act like owning a stronghold still means a team can spawn near it because you don't HAVE to stand in it, but if you're not standing in it you're standing near it guarding it which is the same damn thing.

 

 

And if you're NOT standing near it, then the other team will spawn there and capture the stronghold. So what's your point? Strongholds captured might as well represent where your team is on the map. Am I right?

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Been listening to a lot of old soundtracks lately. A lotta Halo: CE, Soul Reaver 1, 2 and LoK: Defiance. There's just such a charm to older game soundtracks that modern OSTs lack. I think the same applies to games, too. I absolutely adored Halo 1's art in part due to its bad graphical quality. It creates such a unique atmosphere.

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Been listening to a lot of old soundtracks lately. A lotta Halo: CE, Soul Reaver 1, 2 and LoK: Defiance. There's just such a charm to older game soundtracks that modern OSTs lack.

Because the AAA gaming industry follows the movie industry like lost puppy

 

And the current trend in blockbuster movies is for music to just exist and be a safe, generic tune, not really be memorable.

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No, you're right. Strongholds don't influence spawns, but players do. Explain to me how you capture a stronghold without a player standing in it. You act like owning a stronghold still means a team can spawn near it because you don't HAVE to stand in it, but if you're not standing in it you're standing near it guarding it which is the same damn thing.

 

 

And if you're NOT standing near it, then the other team will spawn there and capture the stronghold. So what's your point? Strongholds captured might as well represent where your team is on the map. Am I right?

 

You are not. For example, it's fairly easy to cap BR on Rig without blocking Bunker spawns and it's actually easier to defend that hill from white hall/Snipe/Tower than it is by controlling Bunker spawns.

 

This is the way every pro team besides E6 wanted to play Rig last season.

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I absolutely adored Halo 1's art in part due to its bad graphical quality. It creates such a unique atmosphere.

I enjoyed it due to its simplicity, but it did irk me at how bad environments looked. Seeing clear creases and lines in walls, or where rocks meet the ground always bothered me. It's by no means a gamebreaking thing, because playing MCC CE was beyond enjoyable, and a pleasure to look at, but I wouldn't say I enjoyed it due to how bad it was. The only place where I think CE's poor graphical quality really struck me as working was in 343 GS, where the fog, mixed with basic shapes (Alongside these faults being hidden by fog) would create an insanely atmospheric level to walk through. One that hasn't been replicated in any level of Halo thus far, as far as I'm concerned.

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A team not being good enough to execute a strategy doesn't make a gametype not broken.

 

I'll repeat what I said earlier, if a map plays beautifully under every test and has players rotating and moving and awesome gunfights are happening then that's great. But if you throw a $100000 prize pool for a match and all of a sudden the game comes screeching to a halt and no one moves, then the map is broken. Because at the absolute highest level of play the best strategy is to not move, and the same goes for strongholds.

 

Out of all the gametypes in the game, SH is the the one that forces the most movement, as someone is always scoring. Unlike in Slayer, the losing team does not have the option to play passive. And if they can't break the same spawn trap for an entire game, then they deserve to lose. I also think a gametype that you can win purely by controlling the majority of the map is a worthy gametype.

 

I also think its inaccurate to claim that SH plays slow at a high level. The best teams have learned how to get a 3cap while retaining control over spawns. I've seen LONG 3caps on every map. SH doesn't play as static as you're claiming at the highest level. The game does reward you for supreme map control. And again, if a team wants to settle for 2/3rds control and can ride it out for an entire game, then the other team deserves to lose. There should be a gametype that makes you lose if you can't break a setup for long enough.

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I enjoyed it due to its simplicity, but it did irk me at how bad environments looked. Seeing clear creases and lines in walls, or where rocks meet the ground always bothered me. It's by no means a gamebreaking thing, because playing MCC CE was beyond enjoyable, and a pleasure to look at, but I wouldn't say I enjoyed it due to how bad it was. The only place where I think CE's poor graphical quality really struck me as working was in 343 GS, where the fog, mixed with basic shapes (Alongside these faults being hidden by fog) would create an insanely atmospheric level to walk through. One that hasn't been replicated in any level of Halo thus far, as far as I'm concerned.

What, Cortana in Halo 3 didn't do a good job creating a highly claustrophobic and directionless atmosphere for you?

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You are not. For example, it's fairly easy to cap BR on Rig without blocking Bunker spawns and it's actually easier to defend that hill from white hall/Snipe/Tower than it is by controlling Bunker spawns.

 

This is the way every pro team besides E6 wanted to play Rig last season.

The depth that your reasoning is diving to is so far past the point of applicability that it doesn't even matter if what you're saying is true (which it isn't outside of an extremely controlled bubble of unlikelihood) because strongholds 98% of the time is going to act exactly as we described it.

 

For the record with the proper map and stronghold placement it actually could be "pretty okay". Someone would just have to make it.

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Out of all the gametypes in the game, SH is the the one that forces the most movement, as someone is always scoring. Unlike in Slayer, the losing team does not have the option to play passive. And if they can't break the same spawn trap for an entire game, then they deserve to lose. I also think a gametype that you can win purely by controlling the majority of the map is a worthy gametype.

 

I also think its inaccurate to claim that SH plays slow at a high level. The best teams have learned how to get a 3cap while retaining control over spawns. I've seen LONG 3caps on every map. SH doesn't play as static as you're claiming at the highest level. The game does reward you for supreme map control. And again, if a team wants to settle for 2/3rds control and can ride it out for an entire game, then the other team deserves to lose. There should be a gametype that makes you lose if you can't break a setup for long enough.

I never said strongholds played slow, my point is that just because some teams are able to break a spawn trap doesn't mean it's okay.

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Because the AAA gaming industry follows the movie industry like lost puppy

 

And the current trend in blockbuster movies is for music to just exist and be a safe, generic tune, not really be memorable.

I still hold the opinion that Hans Zimmer ruined movie and video game soundtracks, not because his scores are bad, but because everyone and their mother keep trying to sound like him. I really appreciate Mick Gordon is one of the few who are trying to reclaim the spotlight for VG soundtracks, and what with the DOOM OST winning the soundtrack of the year award, it seems like he'll influence a lot of future games. In a perfect world, all VG music would go back to how it sounded in the 90s and early 2000s. The Soul Reaver theme is still my favourite theme song, next to Halo: CE's theme.
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