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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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...And you're still not contributing anything at all to this discussion. Fascinating. Do you think you're making a coherent argument that actually addresses anything being said?

It's laughable that you guys won't admit that StrongHolds is a good gametype.

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Yeah but people never actually gave a chance to those game types. The only time you played them were with radar and AR starts and vanilla settings.

hmmm.  I'm pretty confused by your post. 

 

Man that was so boring to watch....

 

It's laughable that you guys won't admit that StrongHolds is a good gametype.

What's even more laughable? Better game types exist, have existed since the beginning, and are not being played.

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It's laughable that you guys won't admit that StrongHolds is a good gametype.

 

I've personally never said it was bad, but your responses so far have been completely vacuous. It Is a simplistic gametype that plays very much like slayer. Do you have a response to that observation or are you going to just keep insisting that "it plays good" like that actually demonstrates something?

 

I guess that is an indirect response to my question, though. You really do think you've presented a coherent counterpoint, since you keep repeating yourself.

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Strongholds being inferior to King and Oddball is backed by the fact that 3 plots has existed in Halo as a gametype for over a decade, but only became relevant as a competitive game type once King, Assault and Oddball got removed (thanks again 343). Yeah the scoring was different in 3 plots and it was just a Territories variant, but the point stands.

 

Ok i lied, not my last post.  

 

I AGREE WITH THIS!!^^^^

 

Strongholds as it stand right now, feels like an inferior experience to previous iterations of King and Oddball.  That is something I 100% agree with.

 

What i disagree with is how inferior it is and how it's being compared to slayer.  I think its slightly less compelling sure, but still pretty good that i would want to play it regularly and think it has competitive merit. King and Oddball were default gametypes i would still want to play it and see it as a legitimate test of teamwork and skill.  I also totally disagree that its just a dumbed down, hand-holding slayer variant. that doesn't compute for me at all.

 

Also, assuming that King and Oddball would automatically be better in Halo 5 with 0 experience playing them in H5 is asinine.

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I've personally never said it was bad, but your responses so far have been completely vacuous. It Is a simplistic gametype that plays very much like slayer. Do you have a response to that observation or are you going to just keep insisting that "it plays good" like that actually demonstrates something?

 

I guess that is an indirect response to my question, though. You really do think you've presented a coherent counterpoint, since you keep repeating yourself.

Im done commenting , because I'm arguing with people that don't even play the game.
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...And you're still not contributing anything at all to this discussion. Fascinating. Do you think you're making a coherent argument that actually addresses anything being said?

 

As usual, these posts from you are so contrived it's sad that it is expected. He's calling back one of the most common points I see with these discussions and that is that people in this thread specifically either make stuff up to fit their biased narrative or they have purposefully fabricated an improperly informed opinion on a games mechanics to, once again, continue a discussion that shouldn't exist in the first place.

 

I'm all for discussing the merits of a particular gametype, but only when the actual discussion starts from a reasonable point of experience or plain facts. What I see on these forums, time and time again, is the same general group of posters who comment on a game they either a) don't play, b) didn't play enough of, c) don't care about minute details that are relevant to that games mechanics and discussions at hand, or d) spent relatively zero time observing + understanding the systems at play in high level gameplay.

 

Let's not even go into the fact that it is a year later and we have "prominent" figures in this community still pushing the "random and unpredictable" narrative over and over again as if we all sat down and said, "yeah, I just can't predict where this guy is going. Everyone agrees, yes?"

 

--------

 

On a side note, how on earth is a developer supposed to take a community like ours more seriously than Reddit or Waypoint when the loudest of our bunch make these statements over and over again without any sort of numerical or factual data to back it up? I mean, is everyone on TB just allergic to numbers and actual data gathering?

 

I've been a part of several competitive communities across different games and the Halo community seems to be one of the most number-allergic I've seen. AR is OP? Prove it, and not just by taking an absolutely perfect TTK that is almost entirely improbable and using that as a fact. Because in any real logical discussion of merit, you would be thrown out for such a silly correlation. 

 

Oh and one last thing, over on reddit we have stuff like this:

 

HIcmUTW.pngTop 50 players from Team Arena and their weapon usage breakdown, courtesy of ElWonAte on r/Halo.

Source: http://imgur.com/a/KpWjD

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Im done commenting , because I'm arguing with people that don't even play the game.

Arg has played the game plenty. You are clearly reaching for straws now.

People don't instantly loose their right to discus Halo 5 because they are not presently wasting their time with the piece of shit game.

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As usual, these posts from you are so contrived it's sad that it is expected. He's calling back one of the most common points I see with these discussions and that is that people in this thread specifically either make stuff up to fit their biased narrative or they have purposefully fabricated an improperly informed opinion on a games mechanics to, once again, continue a discussion that shouldn't exist in the first place.

 

I'm all for discussing the merits of a particular gametype, but only when the actual discussion starts from a reasonable point of experience or plain facts. What I see on these forums, time and time again, is the same general group of posters who comment on a game they either a) don't play, b) didn't play enough of, c) don't care about minute details that are relevant to that games mechanics and discussions at hand, or d) spent relatively zero time observing + understanding the systems at play in high level gameplay.

 

Let's not even go into the fact that it is a year later and we have "prominent" figures in this community still pushing the "random and unpredictable" narrative over and over again as if we all sat down and said, "yeah, I just can't predict where this guy is going. Everyone agrees, yes?"

 

--------

 

On a side note, how on earth is a developer supposed to take a community like ours more seriously than Reddit or Waypoint when the loudest of our bunch make these statements over and over again without any sort of numerical or factual data to back it up? I mean, is everyone on TB just allergic to numbers and actual data gathering?

 

I've been a part of several competitive communities across different games and the Halo community seems to be one of the most number-allergic I've seen. AR is OP? Prove it, and not just by taking an absolutely perfect TTK that is almost entirely improbable and using that as a fact. Because in any real logical discussion of merit, you would be thrown out for such a silly correlation.

 

Oh and one last thing, over on reddit we have stuff like this:

 

HIcmUTW.pngTop 50 players from Team Arena and their weapon usage breakdown, courtesy of ElWonAte on r/Halo.

Source: http://imgur.com/a/KpWjD

Because numbers don't take context into account.

 

That chart tells how much kills ARs get, how much damage they deal, and how much time they are held.

 

It doesn't tell us what they are winning against, how they are being used, or how they affect the gameplay as whole. Those numbers are just data without context.

 

Context is infinitely more important than numbers.

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This is just wrong though.

 

Triple capping doesnt cause spawn traps to break. The "break" you see is the result of NOT blocking spawn between capping the third zone and the enemy team respawing.

 

And here comes your circular reasoning. You claim strongholds is bad because the spawns are random (they aren't), but then when teams intentionally influence spawns, maxing out their predicatability you say that's bad too.

 

The scenario you speak of, is wrong and confusing. You can influence a teams spaws without standing in strongholds and without risk of them spawning at a stronghold you vacate. You just have to position yourself properly, just like when influencing spawns in ctf or slayer, or any other gametype.

 

As i mentioned i posted a video of a team doing EXACTLY that on Plaza.

2 cap is a spawn trap. I think that's a flaw.

 

3 cap is unpredictable. I also think that's a flaw. There's nothing circular about that.

 

Slayer has sucked ass since CE tbh. It's one of the most forced comp gametypes out there and for no good reason other than "just because."

 

A redesign of a slayer-esque gametype would be a much better effort spent on behalf superfluous-ego lad MultiLockOn than whatever the hell he's going on about currently.

How do I have an ego. What have I said that's made you think that, seriously I'd like to know.

Im done commenting , because I'm arguing with people that don't even play the game.

I'm 120 something in Halo 5 and can probably double that time between customs and forge.

 

Onyx nearly every season I've played.

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On a side note, how on earth is a developer supposed to take a community like ours more seriously than Reddit or Waypoint when the loudest of our bunch make these statements over and over again without any sort of numerical or factual data to back it up? I mean, is everyone on TB just allergic to numbers and actual data gathering?

 

I've been a part of several competitive communities across different games and the Halo community seems to be one of the most number-allergic I've seen. AR is OP? Prove it, and not just by taking an absolutely perfect TTK that is almost entirely improbable and using that as a fact. Because in any real logical discussion of merit, you would be thrown out for such a silly correlation. 

 

1. Most of the problems with Halo don't show up as easily quantifiable chart fodder, or aren't a number problem at all but rather a philosophical grievance. 

 

2. lol @ the idea that this is historically why the competitive community is ignored by the devs

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2 cap is a spawn trap. I think that's a flaw.

 

3 cap is unpredictable. I also think that's a flaw. There's nothing circular about that.

 

How do I have an ego. What have I said that's made you think that, seriously I'd like to know.

I'm 120 something in Halo 5 and can probably double that time between customs and forge.

 

Onyx nearly every season I've played.

A 2 cap is not a spawn trap. Thats a false statement

 

A 3 cap is not unpredicatable. Thats a false statement.

 

Its circular reasoning when the desired property (predicatability) is also what you cite as a flaw.

 

As i've already mentioned. A spawn trap is when your teams POSITIONING forces the opposing team to spawn in a place where pushing out puts them at an extreme vulnerabilty. Simply getting a 2 cap doesnt achieve that, 1) much of the map is likely still open for spawns, depending on YOUR physical position 2) the opposing team isnt neccisarily dead, so they cant be spawn trapped.

 

If my team just capped bottom mid plaza (which usually requires two players) and im at nest then, the opposing can spawn hotel, cafe, yard, or tram. How is that a spawn trap?

 

In order to spawn trap someone would have had to leave nest and bottom mid to block tram and yard spawns. If one player died in the process of getting the cap, we don't even have the player count to set a trap.

 

Like i said your entire argument centers around false premises.

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As usual, these posts from you are so contrived it's sad that it is expected. He's calling back one of the most common points I see with these discussions and that is that people in this thread specifically either make stuff up to fit their biased narrative or they have purposefully fabricated an improperly informed opinion on a games mechanics to, once again, continue a discussion that shouldn't exist in the first place.

 

I'm all for discussing the merits of a particular gametype, but only when the actual discussion starts from a reasonable point of experience or plain facts. What I see on these forums, time and time again, is the same general group of posters who comment on a game they either a) don't play, b) didn't play enough of, c) don't care about minute details that are relevant to that games mechanics and discussions at hand, or d) spent relatively zero time observing + understanding the systems at play in high level gameplay.

 

Let's not even go into the fact that it is a year later and we have "prominent" figures in this community still pushing the "random and unpredictable" narrative over and over again as if we all sat down and said, "yeah, I just can't predict where this guy is going. Everyone agrees, yes?"

 

--------

 

On a side note, how on earth is a developer supposed to take a community like ours more seriously than Reddit or Waypoint when the loudest of our bunch make these statements over and over again without any sort of numerical or factual data to back it up? I mean, is everyone on TB just allergic to numbers and actual data gathering?

 

I've been a part of several competitive communities across different games and the Halo community seems to be one of the most number-allergic I've seen. AR is OP? Prove it, and not just by taking an absolutely perfect TTK that is almost entirely improbable and using that as a fact. Because in any real logical discussion of merit, you would be thrown out for such a silly correlation. 

 

Oh and one last thing, over on reddit we have stuff like this:

 

HIcmUTW.pngTop 50 players from Team Arena and their weapon usage breakdown, courtesy of ElWonAte on r/Halo.

Source: http://imgur.com/a/KpWjD

You can throw all the numbers at me in the world, I'll still trust my gut feeling, and every time I play default H5, all I feel is disappointment and frustration. The only time that doesn't happen is when I play evolved settings. In fact, when I play evolved settings, I get excited and have better feelings towards the game. There is still issues, but at least it's not overall overwealming disappointment.

It doesn't take statistical data or complex analysis to realize that game is trash.

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Because numbers don't take context into account.

 

That chart tells how much kills ARs get, how much damage they deal, and how much time they are held.

 

It doesn't tell us what they are winning against, how they are being used, or how they affect the gameplay as whole. Those numbers are just data without context.

 

Context is infinitely more important than numbers.

 

These numbers are gathered from context sensitive scenarios. Whether or not that fits your argument falls entirely upon you to make it work. In statistics, you build your hypothesis on multiple points of data. Want to gather the rest? Go in and watch 10 games of each of those top 50 players in theater and tally the AR wins over the utility weapon outside of teammate interference. Now you start building a good argument after some thorough stat analysis.

 

I didn't provide this as proof of whether or not the AR is op, I posted this to show that there should be more emphasis on data and number gathering to form arguments on this site. That's how you would convince your boss at any workplace about a point you want to bring up, not just saying that something is off and leaving that job to someone else or forming consensus amongst your workplace to make a point.

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A 2 cap is not a spawn trap. Thats a false statement

 

A 3 cap is not unpredicatable. Thats a false statement.

 

Its circular reasoning when the desired property is also what you cite as a flaw.

If you think a team sitting around the rig continually spawning the other team in BR tower ISN'T a spawn trap I don't know what to tell you.

 

If you think continually spawn trapping a team by forcing them into the same spot isn't brainless and isn't undesirable then I also don't know what to tell you. That's the same thing we've been going for 14 years since Halo 2, it was stupid then and it's stupid now.

 

Also I don't think you know what circular means.

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Strongholds is a fun gametype, but it does have a very set playstyle on the maps played competitively. When have you seen a team lock down bottom mid and yard on Plaza and not go to nest and let the other team take yard? 

 

You do essentially leave the other team the 1/3 of the map that is considered the weaker/worse section. That's slayer-esque

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It's blatantly obvious a lack of understanding and experience with the gametype is present if we're claiming spawns in Strongholds are random (even in 3 cap situations). The spawns aren't random. Postulating something theoretically is entirely different that proving something through experience.

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A 2 cap is not a spawn trap. Thats a false statement

 

A 3 cap is not unpredicatable. Thats a false statement.

 

Its circular reasoning when the desired property (predicatability) is also what you cite as a flaw.

 

As i've already mentioned. A spawn trap is when your teams POSITIONING forces the opposing team to spawn in a place where pushing out puts them at an extreme vulnerabilty. Simply getting a 2 cap doesnt achieve that, 1) much of the map is likely still open for spawns, depending on YOUR physical position 2) the opposing team isnt neccisarily dead, so they cant be spawn trapped.

 

If my team just capped bottom mid plaza (which usually requires two players) and im at nest then, the opposing can spawn hotel, cafe, yard, or tram. How is that a spawn trap?

 

In order to spawn trap someone would have had to leave nest and bottom mid to block tram and yard spawns. If one player died in the process of getting the cap, we don't even have the player to set a trap.

 

To further your point, spawns in a 3 cap are going to happen in relation to your team's rotation. If you rotate into yard to 3 cap, but leave, say, Lift open, then you'll have a prediction of spawning. The challenge is they rotating back to the stronghold you leave open.

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If you think a team sitting around the rig continually spawning the other team in BR tower ISN'T a spawn trap I don't know what to tell you.

 

If you think continually spawn trapping a team by forcing them into the same spot isn't brainless and isn't undesirable then I also don't know what to tell you. That's the same thing we've been going for 14 years since Halo 2, it was stupid then and it's stupid now.

 

Also I don't think you know what circular means.

I think what he's getting at is that just by virtue of having 2 plots, does not guarantee a restricted spawn for the other team. There are other variables that don't make this a hard and fast law. The controlling team still needs to be positioned properly.

 

The sense of urgency that Strongholds places on players is part of what makes it unique as well. No such thing exists in Slayer. I see what you're saying about how the gametypes CAN play similar, but in my experience and from watching tournaments, they rarely do.

 

In fact, the older the game gets, the more I see good teams figuring out how to execute a 3 cap and actually hold it without losing control.

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If you think a team sitting around the rig continually spawning the other team in BR tower ISN'T a spawn trap I don't know what to tell you.

 

If you think continually spawn trapping a team by forcing them into the same spot isn't brainless and isn't undesirable then I also don't know what to tell you. That's the same thing we've been going for 14 years since Halo 2, it was stupid then and it's stupid now.

 

Also I don't think you know what circular means.

Simply getting a 2 cap is not a spawn trap. Just because your are forcing inside spawns (which is about positioning, not zones held) doesnt mean you have trapped people at BR.

 

If you only have two down when you get your second cap, and the other two arent in BR, then you dont have a trap. If it took you two teammates to get your second cap, then you have no one in place to TRAP anyone in BR. Again not a trap.

 

You cant just change the definition of these terms to fit your argument.

 

Speaking of definitions, you're right you arent using circular reasoning. You just have a really poor argument that's based on objectively incorrect premises.

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Enjoying how it plays is ultimately subjective, but Multi said specifically that it was okay at best, not straight up bad. Every reply you give is either 1 or 2 sentences of one liner attempts that deflect any points he makes. Congrats, you avoid any form of actual discussion.

 

Furthermore, he said that it was balanced, functional and fair, he did not say it theoretically does not work, only that is is not optimised well for 4v4 player count in comparison to over game modes. He also said that the game mode is essentially dumbed down slayer.

 

Bringing back my comaprison of Team Deathmatch, Control and Zone Control from Destiny, TDM being TDM, Control being 3 plot where kills earm score while holding objectives to influence spawning, zone control beng a traditional 3 plot mode, like strongholds.

 

These 3 modes are the common modes for Iron Banner in Destiny, Iron Banner being one of the destiny equivalents of "competitive" modes

 

Control and Zone Control have literally the EXACT same strategies and gameplay. The zones are in the same place, the spawns are influenced the same way. The only difference is scoring based on kills vs time holding objectives. Gameplay wise, a match of Control and Zone Control play EXACTLY the same. In both gamemodes the team that wins is the one who locks the opposing team in one area of the map and prevents them pushing out to other objectives.

 

Why is this relevant? Because it proves Multi's point. 3 Plot Gamemodes are about spawn trapping, the objectives exist ONLY to be captured to influence where you and your opponents spawn. When a 3 plot mode is uses scoring based on Kills, like Control in Destiny, it does not play any differently from one that scores based on holding the objectives, like Zone Control in Destiny. This proves his inital statement: 3 plots is about spawn trapping. To refute this further is to deny facts.

 

Why is the compariaon to TDM relevant? Because to win TDM, you want to hold your opponents in a spawn trap as often as possible. JUST LIKE 3 PLOTS. The only difference, as Multi also already pointed out, is that in Slayer/TDM, you get more choice over where you spawn trap your enemy. When you play Rusted Lands in Destiny, you attempt to force your enemies onto the Beach spawn at Bravo, in TDM, Control AND Zone Control, but in TDM because you have more control over spawning, with no objectives to influence them on your behalf, it is in the hands of player to devise how, where and when to spawn trap the opponents, it is not pre determined by 3 objctives, in this vein, it is much more dynamic. The flip side is that 3 plot is arguably more predictable because you can cap the objective and worry less about your individual positioning influencing it.

 

The reason you want to push an objective in 3 Plot is to break the spawn trap. But in slayer, you would want to break out the spawn trap, objective or no objective.

 

Destiny has all the relevent game modes in a real world example to prove the whole of the statement Multi made. 3 Plot Modes are won using fundamentally the EXACT same strategies as slayer, using objectives, as opposed to a each individual team members positoning, to influence spawning to spawn trap the opposing team for as long as possible. The major difference, is that Slayer has teams devise their own set ups, due to no capture and leave objectives existing, as a result it is potentially more dynamic, while 3 Plot modes have pre determined ones, and this is arguably dumbed down, or arguably more predictable outside of a triple cap causing the opposing team to spawn randomly.

 

Now, what I will add, is that 3 Plot modes, on the right map, can add an incentive to move in a way slayer doesn't. If the Hills are placed in areas with little power, as they should be, you can force movement to areas of the map a slayer game just simply would not acheive.

 

However, as Multi also points out, KOTH and Oddball acheive the similar effect, but allowing for more player control and creativity in how to do so, and are game modes that do not share such a fundamentally similar playstyle to Slayer.

 

His point, is not that a 3 Plot modes is bad, broken or even unsuitable for 4v4 Halo, merely that it is an inferior choice for 4v4 Halo due to how similar it is to Slayer, and how little creativity it allows for in comparison to modes like KOTH or Oddball.

 

This is one of the best, and most level headed posts regarding the subject.

 

I was thinking of the Destiny comparison myself. Its a good example.

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It's blatantly obvious a lack of understanding and experience with the gametype is present if we're claiming spawns in Strongholds are random (even in 3 cap situations). The spawns aren't random. Postulating something theoretically is entirely different that proving something through experience.

Strongholds are spread out to encompass the entire map on every map except Empire. If you stand on each stronghold on The Rig and have a 4th stand on catwalks, where does the other team spawn?

 

Do you know? Because the game is going to freak out and give really odd spawns at that point. That's unpredictable.

 

 

If you move the 4th player off the catwalk they'll spawn on carbine and the best move at that point would be to KEEP them spawning in carbine, wouldn't you agree? That's a spawn trap. Explain bow that differs from slayer.

 

No matter where you move your players the strategy is going to play out exactly the same it would in a slayer match. So why are we even playing strongholds.

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This is one of the best, and most level headed posts regarding the subject.

 

I was thinking of the Destiny comparison myself. Its a good example.

Kell did a much better job simplifying my posts right there I agree. Destiny in this example is the perfect example.

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