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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Instead of damage it should be that recovery time is relative to the height you descend. Direct hits should have minimal recovery time, but absolute misses for showboating should put you at risk. As funny as accidental suicides would be, I think they'd fall afoul of general online shenanigans a little too often.

 

As for Spartan Charge, I feel like it needs some kind of counterplay mechanic that discourages it being used to initiate fights but doesn't make it completely useless (because tbh I do think it'd be kind of cool if it wasn't so frustrating to have it used against you).

Something like some combination the following:

- Retains instakill ability for hits from behind.

- Longer recovery time and/or a small amount of damage to the user if you accidentally hit a wall.

- Vastly reduced magnetism and/or the ability for an opponent's thruster to nullify whatever magnetism it currently has.

- Knockback almost always (barring some weird geometry and position related stuff that can happen) puts enough to space between both players to prevent either player from immediately landing another melee attack. So if someone does try to hit you dead on you should be able to kill them by just continuing to shoot accurately as they charge and recover before they can shoot.

- During the recovery period make the user vulnerable to animated assassinations from any direction as a flashy way to punish whiffing the hit.

 

Basically I think it'd be cool if it was more of a situationally useful finishing move with more weighty risks than one used as carelessly as it is now (especially at medium levels of play where "charge & spray" can be more reliable than trying to use either your AR or Magnum optimally).

It's a crime that I'm the only one to +rep this man's post.

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Excuse you, but have you played as many HIGH LEVEL  3 plot games as him? I didn't think so stupid noob.  :kappa:

Competitive Halo has been brainless since Halo 2 and it's so odd that people pull the pro card still.

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I hate to bitch and moan, but being disconnected from this game (Specifically the game, when everything else, internet wise is fine) five times in one night is probably the most infuriating thing imaginable. I don't like to group all of 343i together when I say this, but as your game ages, shouldn't it get more stable, and not more unstable? What happened?

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It's a crime that I'm the only one to +rep this man's post.

It's not the fact that I don't support his suggestions, but the matter of me simply wishing for a more simplistic melee system that actually requires aim to the extent of shooting skill for success, and not this form of hand-holding that has persisted since halo 2. We don't need SC or GP to increase the skill gap of melees, just disable melee lunge/magnetism. Along with that, bring back diverse weapon melee range/damage that (optionally) is based around momentum.

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Competitive Halo has been brainless since Halo 2 and it's so odd that people pull the pro card still.

Accidental neg.

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Why would you ever have a player standing in every stronghold? You always want to position yourself in a way that gives the other team predictable spawns, therefore if you are pushing a trip-cap, you should leave a spawn open for the other team. A good example of this is pushing for Yard on Plaza (which happens a lot), you push through Tram and leave players top-mid/posters and Nest to force blue spawns.

So you're forcing blue spawns.  So you're creating a spawn trap.

 

And you don't need to stand in each stronghold, you move to create a spawn trap.  Why do I get the feeling you didn't retain any of my post when I've already addressed every possible scenario you bring up.

 

 

I was just clarifying the actual reason why some teams don't like to push trip-caps. The best teams still do when the opportunity presents itself (Hey would you look at that, better players making an interesting/risky choice that makes them better at the gametype than teams that try to set-up and play it safe 100% of the time).

Why is it risky to push a triple cap? Is it because your teammates are spread too thin between three strongholds? Or is it because you can't control their spawning.  Either way there's an inherent issue with the risk here.

 

 

 

I was using your terminology, hence the quotations. Every strongholds map has an ideal set of hills that you want to hold, yes, but pro teams know how to play around any two that they have, and they have to know this because every pro team gets put in those situations (which wouldn't happen if it played the way you describe). Also the assertion that giving up a hill is automatically the result of a bad trip-cap push is inaccurate. Most of the time it's the result of a good push from the other team as opposed to a bad push from the team in control. (again this is a team making an interesting choice that gives them a better chance of winning the game).

 

 

Okay so once the other team has acquired to two "lesser" strongholds what's the plan.  To force the other team into a spawn trap, or to acquire the better set..and do the same exact thing.  Do you not see what I'm getting at.  At least in Slayer you have some flexibility in how you choose to push the other team around, Strongholds gives none.

 

 

 

Only reason I bring it up is because people in this thread insist on using "Theoretical knowledge" (Ie stuff they made up to support their opinion) instead of making an earnest attempt to understand the game they are arguing about.

 

I'm going to repeat myself.  I know how to play a 3 plot gametype. Bronze players know how to play 3 plots.

 

Strongholds could be okay at best but it would require a stellar map AND stronghold placement to work.  Neither of which are present in MM.

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I hate to bitch and moan, but being disconnected from this game (Specifically the game, when everything else, internet wise is fine) five times in one night is probably the most infuriating thing imaginable. I don't like to group all of 343i together when I say this, but as your game ages, shouldn't it get more stable, and not more unstable? What happened?

1 0 0 G I G A B Y T E S
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I M M E R S I V E   U N C O M P R E S S E D   A U D I O.

Gotta have that immersive pew pew pew Light Rifle sound. 

 

:wutface:

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Gotta have that immersive pew pew pew Light Rifle sound. 

 

:wutface:

Why the fuck wouldn't you have it? You'll entirely notice the difference on most general setups. Totes. Yep. Totally worth the extra 80+ GBs of space.

 

U N F .

You know me all too well.

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Strongholds could be okay at best

 

 

You genuinely think Strongholds is worse than okay? Like on a scale from 1-5....? Where would you put CTF or Oddball on that scale?

 

You could be just as critical of Capture the Flag or any gametype for that matter if you over analyze. Some people think Strongholds has become a staple Halo gametype. Some people might even think its more competitive than CTF or other past Halo gametypes.

 

 

I feel as though you are creating very situational and vacuum-esque scenarios to spin Strongholds in a negative/one-directional light, but in reality the gametype is far more dynamic than the way you are presenting. Halo as a whole is too dynamic to remove that many variables for theory crafting.

 

(In specific, I think you are overstating not only the spawn influence that a stronghold has, but also the strength of the "optimal" setups)

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You genuinely think Strongholds is worse than okay? Like on a scale from 1-5....? Where would you put CTF or Oddball on that scale?

 

You could be just as critical of Capture the Flag or any gametype for that matter if you over analyze. Some people think Strongholds has become a staple Halo gametype. Some people might even think its more competitive than CTF or other past Halo gametypes.

 

 

I feel as though you are creating very situational and vacuum-esque scenarios to spin Strongholds in a negative/one-directional light, but in reality the gametype is far more dynamic than the way you are presenting. Halo as a whole is too dynamic to remove that many variables for theory crafting.

 

(In specific, I think you are overstating not only the spawn influence that a stronghold has, but also the strength of the "optimal" setups)

Strongholds at best is just okay, because despite all the downsides I just mentioned at the very least it's fair, simple, and fast. Just a dumbed down Slayer. At worst it's a complete trainwreck. I don't understand how people can value it as a gametype so much when the hardest possible decision you could make is either "Should we cap the 3rd stronghold" or "which stronghold should we cap". There's literally less thought process going on in Strongholds than an average Slayer match because the nature of the gametype makes all the decisions for you.

 

I've never been a fan of 4v4 in Halo, I think it's a stupid player count that dilutes the game, but if we're going to work with the whole "team-shot/call out/hand-holding" 4v4 gameplay we've been doing for 13 years then Oddball, CTF, Assault, TS, and KOTH are all much MUCH better for the reasons I've already described.

 

Halo isn't a moba, it's actually fairly easy to just sit down and think about how things work out conceptually before ever even doing them. I mean, that's literally what I was hired to do and I do it for a living now, so.. I'm pretty good at it.

 

Even if I am overstating the severity of optimal spawn setups and idealized stronghold captures (and I don't think I am) that still does nothing to show why Strongholds has any more depth than the most primitive deathmatch. Because it does't, and it's very strange that people don't recognize that. It's just such a poor gametype when you sit it down next to Koth in the way it utilizes the players on the map and it gives such few opportunities for actual great decision making. Teams rarely play anything different, and even if they did...how much can strategies even deviate in Strongholds? Not very much. People see how simple and fair it is conceptually and love it and go no further. It just adds absolutely nothing to the game.

 

KoTH has always been my favorite gametype, I'd give it a 8/10. If the hill moved like it did in Warpath and froze the timer during Hill Time/gave stacking advantages per player I'd give it a perfect 10. I honestly think that'd be the best gametype Halo has ever had.

 

CTF and Assault are similar enough but I like how Flag forces you to reco before you can score. Would probably go 9 for CTF and 8 for Assault (without flagnum/double thrust all that jazz).

 

Slayer is Slayer,

 

VIP on Valhalla 1/10

 

Stockpile was dope and underrated. Really cool opportunities to play both offense and defense.

 

Like I said, I don't hate strongholds. It just doesn't need to be in matchmaking and it certainly doesn't need to be on the pro circuit

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I've never been a fan of 4v4 in Halo, I think it's a stupid player count that dilutes the game, but if we're going to work with the whole "team-shot/call out/hand-holding" 4v4 gameplay we've been doing for 13 years then Oddball, CTF, Assault, TS, and KOTH are all much MUCH better for the reasons I've already described.

Have you always considered 2v2 to be the best player count for halo? If so, what makes it so much more appealing than 4v4? Could even 3v3 competitive work out for what you desire?

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I forgot Ball.

 

Oddball is weird because it's almost the fundamental opposite of Slayer. Normally we'd shun players/maps that reward teams for hunkering down in a room and not moving but in Oddball that's the name of the game. It's one of the gametypes that's super fun to watch because of how slow and calculated it is and setups are easy to comprehend, but probably not greatest for gameplay.  I'd give it anywhere from a 5 to an 8 depending on the map pool.

 

Which brings up another thought I had earlier.  Some of the coolest moments in Halo esports history revolve around teams creating new ways to play the game.  Final Boss holding the oddball in Shotty tunnel on Lockout and then Library.  Or how Instinct played Construct KOTH by placing all their members on the Gold Lift balcony with only 1 sitting in the hill on the exposed landing pad.  Those kind of new ways to play objectives are only possible with a gametype that actually allows and promotes creativity through team set ups.  That's never going to be possible with Strongholds because the most that can ever happen is a team choosing the other stronghold instead of the usual. Wow, crazy.  We have no idea if there are any standout teams in Halo right now because the map pool and gametype selection literally do not allow creative decision making, who knows E6 could pull some Final Boss family shit and come up with some crazy KOTH setup that no one else is running.  We won't ever know. 

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Instead of damage it should be that recovery time is relative to the height you descend. Direct hits should have minimal recovery time, but absolute misses for showboating should put you at risk. As funny as accidental suicides would be, I think they'd fall afoul of general online shenanigans a little too often.

 

As for Spartan Charge, I feel like it needs some kind of counterplay mechanic that discourages it being used to initiate fights but doesn't make it completely useless (because tbh I do think it'd be kind of cool if it wasn't so frustrating to have it used against you).

Something like some combination the following:

- Retains instakill ability for hits from behind.

- Longer recovery time and/or a small amount of damage to the user if you accidentally hit a wall.

- Vastly reduced magnetism and/or the ability for an opponent's thruster to nullify whatever magnetism it currently has.

- Knockback almost always (barring some weird geometry and position related stuff that can happen) puts enough to space between both players to prevent either player from immediately landing another melee attack. So if someone does try to hit you dead on you should be able to kill them by just continuing to shoot accurately as they charge and recover before they can shoot.

- During the recovery period make the user vulnerable to animated assassinations from any direction as a flashy way to punish whiffing the hit.

 

Basically I think it'd be cool if it was more of a situationally useful finishing move with more weighty risks than one used as carelessly as it is now (especially at medium levels of play where "charge & spray" can be more reliable than trying to use either your AR or Magnum optimally).

If Spartan Charge had to stay personally I would just make it function as a forward ground pound, you hold down the melee button while on the ground to charge it up and then release to Spartan Charge forward, I'd also get rid of melee lunges so that Spartan Charge becomes a skillful alternative to lunging.
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To weigh in on the strongholds discussion, I made this post a while back on why I like the mode so much (it was in response to someone saying Strongholds should be removed in favour of king and ball hence the comparisons. Note: I'm not arguing that strongholds is better than those modes, I'm arguing why it should still be kept in):

 

 

1. The game won't end due to time running out.

- In other modes playing for time is something you regularly see. It draws the game length out and usually isn't very interesting to watch or play.

2. A team is scoring at all times.

- This keeps tension high and means that one team is almost always being aggressive because points are always at stake.

- In games like King you can have an entire hill go by with no one setting foot in it or in Oddball where the ball is left just sitting there. It can create long sections where nothing is really going on and can create some pretty "stalematey" gameplay.

3. The game is very high action.

- Because one team is always winning points the other is always on the offensive. It creates this interesting dynamic of constantly flipping which team is attacking and defending; there's never a stalemate in Strongholds

4. A point has to be captured for a team to score.

- This helps prevent what I mean by "scrappy time". You immediately start scoring upon entering the hill in King whereas in Strongholds you need a properly coordinated push to control the point until it's captured.

5. - A player isn't required to be "incapacitated" for a team to be scoring.

- I've never been that keen on the dynamic where one player is forced to lose their weapon, move more slowly or be forced to remain in one location to score. This is largely just a personal preference for when I'm playing but it does have a fairly major impact on my last point.

 

6. There is a high potential for comebacks.

- Having a large point deficit in King or Ball makes it far more difficult to come back and win than in Strongholds, couple of the previous points link into this:

- No scrappy scoring means if you lose control you can't expect to gain those last few points from scrappy plays such as suicidal pushes.

- Not incapacitating a player means that if the losing team gains control they aren't put at a disadvantage when scoring making it easier for that team to maintain control.

- This can make for some extremely exciting and clutch matches. It's not often you'll see a match of King or Ball where a team comes back from losing 0-99 and wins. That can happen in Strongholds (I've actually seen a number of games have something similar occur and that's in solo matchmaking...).

It's not the best post ever, points 2 and 3 are bpretty much the same and it's not that well written but I can't be bothered to write another post which basically makes the same argument.

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Lol strongholds is like one of the best parts of h5 i would honestly be sad if they dropped it in the next game.

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Lol strongholds is like one of the best parts of h5 i would honestly be sad if they dropped it in the next game.

All I know is they better not drop breakout or warzone. Those have been the best additions to Halo since armor lock!

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