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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Anybody wanna get a BTB lobby going tonight? Possibly some streaming and definitely some drunk Hard Way.

 

@@Mythik Nick, @My Namez Beast, @, @OG Nick, @, @@Ramirez77, @@Sitri, @@Moa, @@Apoll0, @@MultiLockOn, @@Killmachine, @@Teapot, @@Kell Of Scots, @@wow, @@TryHardFan

 

I may edit this later to add names, but this isn't invite only.  If you would like to join up, we'd love to have you.

 

Sure, I'll play some BTB. I'm on now, appearing offline.

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It's apparently not meant to be tonight. XBL is fucking up hardcore and nothing wants to work. This sucks. We would have had a really good lobby.

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It's apparently not meant to be tonight. XBL is fucking up hardcore and nothing wants to work. This sucks. We would have had a really good lobby.

 

RIP the dream.

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A couple of the levels in Doom 4 were pretty good and nonlinear, but almost everything after the Cyberdemon fight was pretty much just straight lines.

 

Like I said, its not a DOOM or DOOM 2 sequel by any means(I still LOVE playing Brutal Doom) but the levels are dense, varied, and fun to explore with collectibles and secrets all around you. It could use more variation especially in later parts of the game and I dont like how often it gives out ammo like free candy, but im still having fun replaying it so it must be doing something right.

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It's apparently not meant to be tonight. XBL is fucking up hardcore and nothing wants to work. This sucks. We would have had a really good lobby.

Lol I have friends over so I couldn't play anyway. But damn that sucks. H5 baby.
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A couple of the levels in Doom 4 were pretty good and nonlinear, but almost everything after the Cyberdemon fight was pretty much just straight lines.

Don't you ever say anything bad about DOOM ever

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I get on after 30 hours of work and my BFF Hard Way invites me to a lobby, only to be ruined by Xbox Live. Dammit, wanted to see drunk Hard Way so bad.

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This may be a day or so late at this point, but I have been traveling and haven't been able to post it: All the talk about the state of Arena shooters and Halo the last couple of days got me thinking about (once again) how there is almost surely a place for classic Halo multiplayer to thrive in the current shooter market. There is truly no game like CE (not even close to be honest) available among modern day shooters. I have always thought that an indie style multiplayer game, in the style of Rocket League (i.e. Indie, multiplier only, Multi-platform), based off  the core principles of CE multiplayer could thrive today with the proper options and support. 

 

One of the main problems with Halo 5 is that it is no longer unique. In many ways, it is essentially Titanfall 2 and COD with slightly longer kill times and no loadouts. 343 and M$ simply chose to follow the industry trend of advanced movement, when the reality is there are already a few other games that do that style of gameplay better. I believe that a CE style game in this market would truly be unique and refreshing compared to any other shooter you could buy today. As others have pointed out, the current FPS market is currently dominated by AAA games. However, Sony and M$ have also been supporting and promoting Indie games recently, and RL has proved that an indie multiplayer-only game can be successful and thrive even at a competitive level. 343 may be totally out of touch with the core principles of Halo and what made it unique, but I think that there is still a chance for classic Halo to see the revival it deserves. It just wouldn't come 343 or M$ directly. 

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This may be a day or so late at this point, but I have been traveling and haven't been able to post it: All the talk about the state of Arena shooters and Halo the last couple of days got me thinking about (once again) how there is almost surely a place for classic Halo multiplayer to thrive in the current shooter market. There is truly no game like CE (not even close to be honest) available among modern day shooters. I have always thought that an indie style multiplayer game, in the style of Rocket League (i.e. Indie, multiplier only, Multi-platform), based off  the core principles of CE multiplayer could thrive today with the proper options and support. 

 

One of the main problems with Halo 5 is that it is no longer unique. In many ways, it is essentially Titanfall 2 and COD with slightly longer kill times and no loadouts. 343 and M$ simply chose to follow the industry trend of advanced movement, when the reality is there are already a few other games that do that style of gameplay better. I believe that a CE style game in this market would truly be unique and refreshing compared to any other shooter you could buy today. As others have pointed out, the current FPS market is currently dominated by AAA games. However, Sony and M$ have also been supporting and promoting Indie games recently, and RL has proved that an indie multiplayer-only game can be successful and thrive even at a competitive level. 343 may be totally out of touch with the core principles of Halo and what made it unique, but I think that there is still a chance for classic Halo to see the revival it deserves. It just wouldn't come 343 or M$ directly. 

 

I was watching a video on YouTube, I believe by Fayvn, and he mentioned the idea of releasing "Halo spin-offs" with OG/classic gameplay, in addition to the advancing main-line Halo titles with modern mechanics, every other year or whatever...

 

I'd totally be down for something like that... "H5 Halo" or OG Halo... both definitely work for me. Like if Certain Affinity did some Halo spin-offs, I think it'd be pretty cool.

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I do think that HCE has the best Halo campaign(and also still my favorite shooter campaign that I have played so far) for multiple reasons.

 

First off, being the original, it has the most complete self-contained story that easily stands alone well, with a great overarching sense of mystery and revelation. I even think that it would make a great space-marine movie, and the original manual story introduction sets a good premise for the rest of the game. The simplicity of the story actually adds to its quality IMO.

 

The core gameplay is also simple, well designed, and solid throughout the entire game. The entire sandbox has its uses against enemies, and enemies themselves sufficiently challenge you while offering plenty of good counter play that 343I AI lack. It also has the best balanced Legendary difficulty as well, as there isn't really any clear straight BS gameplay/enemy stuff that often plaques later games like Jackal Snipers and/or Promeatheans.

 

The repetitive nature of the game that some complain about is actually another reason why I like the game. Each mission generally has a certain encounter theme that is mostly consistent throughout each level, from the indoor CQC of The Pillar of Autumn to the mid-range openness of The Silent Cartographer, to even the constant sniping for most of The Truth and Reconciliation. Even the consistent Flood-only combat in The Library. You can can almost always expect that the current combat theme will carry to the end of the mission, and not constantly change drastically after nearly every fight like in H2, which is one of the things that I dislike a bit about H2. HCE's consistency allows you to enjoy its gameplay for extended periods that often instead feel too shortlived in later games IMO.

 

And the backtracking is not terrible at all IMO. They only have you Backtrack through 3 levels(not half, since there are 10) towards the end, and all for a decent story reason as well, I think they did a clever job of using what they had.

 

You return to the control room to learn the truth about Halo, since you now have the Index Key to activate it, as well as retrieve Cortana, then you must make your way to disabling some generators to briefly buy time before Halo is possibly activated in some other way that is unknown at the time. Only this time the Flood are taking over the Ring. That is Two Betrayals AKA The Assault on the Control room backwards.

 

Then you need to retrieve the Captain again or more importantly his unique neural access codes. Although the fact that you must go through a Covenant Ship again is kinda ironic, the level does a great job at presenting the situation and shows a great glimpse of how fast the Flood can mass some potential central intelligence via the proto-Gravemind that held Captain Keyes and the implication that the Flood would use that Ship to spread beyond the Halo ring. That is Keyes AKA the Truth and Reconciliation with Flood.

 

Then, last but not least you return to your own crashed ship so that you can blow everything up and end it all in a literal race against time in the Maw that has you go back through the Pillar of Autumn.

 

The 'backtracking' doesn't really bother me at all in these levels when playing to conclude the game.

 

The game isn't without its own flaws but what it tries to do, it does well IMO, and I also think that it sets a pretty high bar for the rest of the series.

 

I can still play through the entire HCE campaign start to finish and on Legendary to this day and enjoy every bit of it.

 

Most other Halo campaigns don't have that kind of draw to me, if at all its usually on Heroic due to Legendary balance issues killing the fun despite the the fact that by now its all easy for me anyway.

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Excellent post @@SMARTAN 427

 

I agree... In many ways, I'm still looking for a true sequel to CE, that compliments the series on all the right notes in terms of storytelling, atmosphere, and the overall tone of the Halo universe back in those days... Halo 2 appeared to be that game, with its announcement trailer and judging from the gameplay in the E3 2003 presentation, but we all know that the game was changed significantly by the time it was released... now a few games in the series later, the story and overall tone and feel of the Halo universe is vastly different to the point where it hardly feels like Halo anymore.

 

I'm talking strictly the story and lore within the campaigns, level design, art style, the FEEL of the universe... it's just so different now. Not even talking about the game mechanics, I just want another game where it feels like a true extension of what Halo was like and perceived as in Combat Evolved.

 

I actually feel like this gradual "change in tone" over the years is part of the reason why people are growing more disinterested in Halo, and it seems to be become more and more of a kids game. It's not matured well with its long-time audience and this is a HUGE problem. I mean, we went from fighting a bloody war with a vicious (and sometimes goofy... the grunts) collection of alien races, and grotesque space-zombies, in this AMAZING intergalactic setting, to fighting robots in our "Saturday morning cartoon" inspired "Power Rangers in Space" Spartan armor. 

 

Like, what the hell??

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I've never understood the complaints about backtracking at all. The later levels play COMPLETELY differently, because Bungie smartly utilized their spaces and their sandboxes to guarantee as much. That kind of flexibility is only featured in CE's campaign. You have different weapons and vehicles, different objectives, different battlefield compositions, different routes (and in the opposite direction). Anyone who thinks Assault on the Control Room and Two Betrayals play even remotely alike needs to get their head checked. It's actually baffling. And beyond that, the reuse of familiar territory helped reinforce the sense of place that H1 thrived on, being a game more about exploration of the setting than plot. You're going in and then you're coming back out again. I think H2 brought a LOT to the table in terms of storytelling, but the level and sandbox design was never on par (and the boss fights were hot ass). H3 was much closer, mainly because it brought back the sense of scale.

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Easy to learn. Fun.

Hard to Master. Competitive.

 

Ive talked and this before, H5 failed in both aspects, with fighting-game levels of button pressing just to get around, an incredibly un-fun auto-centric sandbox, and a competitive skill ceiling barely higher than CoD's.

 

You can compare this to Halo CE, 2, 3, and Reach TU and there is so question why it's so relatively unpopular.

 

We need a halo game with Masterchief as the sole protagonist, a simple overarching plot, with a fun environment (think Halo 3), contrasting set-peices, and well designed enemies.

 

Halo 5 failed that

 

We need a Multiplayer with a diverse and niche-based sandbox, a small selection of split social/ranked playlists, community events, integrated file-sharing, B.Net style showcase, 1-50, team balancing, party up, veto system.

 

Halo 5 failed that.

 

We need simple, easy to learn movement mechanics. Crouch jumping and grenade/Brute-shot bouncing added huge depth by themselves, a couple extra things would be amazing. We need more verticle, purpose built, (last resort-esque) interactive maps, with a small number of powerups and power weapons, grav lifts, teleporters, turrets, and the occasional vehicle. I would like to see fun and well balanced equipment back (grav lift, trip mine, etc), and a colour pallete that doesn't actually require highlighted weapons. We need to have a pistol/ar starter FOR EVERY STANDARD GAMETYPE, with a low range, fast reload, fast swap AR, and a hard to use, high ttk single-shot pistol. Obj, slayer, BTB, FFA, and anything else requiring a default starter.

 

Halo 5 failed that.

 

We need a great UI like Reach had, we need achievement based cosmetics like Halo 3. We need less, more exciting medals. We need skin-based weapon progression. We need well designed levelling and appropriate awards like armour, skins, and currency. We need armour effects back. We need deep Reach style customisation back, we need micro transactions to be cosmetic only and higher quality. We need 3-piece custom emblems back. We need black undersuits back. We need ancient forerunner architecture back. We need difficult, small scale, ODST-style firefight back. We need a perfectly functioning theatre back. We need split-screen and LAN. We need major content available on release.

 

When it comes to making a fun and accessible sandbox-arena shooter, which is what Halo always was popular for, 343 made so many key mistakes. They will need to completely turn around their direction for Halo to be popular and fun again.

 

It's got nothing to do with nostalgia, or elitism, or selfishness, or tunnel-vision. This is just what made Halo great, which the leaders of 343 have clearly forgotten. We need Halo to go back to it's roots for the sake of fun, nothing else. 'Fun' is what Bungie was about, and even though they made countless mistakes, 'Fun' games are what they used to make.

 

Make Halo Fun Again.

 

@@ske7ch

this is beautiful babe

make halo great again

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I've never understood the complaints about backtracking at all. The later levels play COMPLETELY differently, because Bungie smartly utilized their spaces and their sandboxes to guarantee as much. That kind of flexibility is only featured in CE's campaign. You have different weapons and vehicles, different objectives, different battlefield compositions, different routes (and in the opposite direction). Anyone who thinks Assault on the Control Room and Two Betrayals play even remotely alike needs to get their head checked. It's actually baffling.

I think it's the fact that it's a blatant backtrack, with no effort for real gameplay difference, or anything, meaning, Two Betrayals is literally just a backwards slogfest through AoTCR without the tank, and with more obnoxious enemies. The pace of the level isn't altered, and if anything, is slowed down exponentially due to the lack of a tank and numerous foes (Flood on top of the Covenant this time around), making it just tedious, boring and sometimes downright frustrating, especially after having played it on Legendary and LASO. It's also why I dread and have put off having to get par time/scores on Two Betrayals. The level's just BORING because it's the exact same as the one it's backtracking off of.

 

I think Keyes did backtracking fine, especially with upping the pace due to a lack of having to rescue the Marines or anything, alongside the beginning being new, and the ship navigation being quicker, but the ending was LITERALLY the exact same as the original mission. Like, both missions end up with you going from the top floor of the main hanger, to getting airlifted out with a shitton of enemies coming at you. Like, there is no alteration to the level's conclusion and that only makes the backtrack more apparent and bothersome. And the Maw was a pretty tedious slogfest, too, up until the end, which, while fine, doesn't stop the beginning from being a blatant backtrack, with minimal pace changing or anything, like Two Betrayals. A grand majority of the level is spent backtracking, with the tail end being new locations. 

 

And it's like, none of the levels, bar the new content play much differently. Two Betrayals sure as fuck doesn't. Keyes does to a point, but The Maw feels super similar with the only alteration being what enemies are there and a few new rooms. And it's like, the point to environmental exploration would work if the initial levels these were based on weren't slogs already and the environment didn't consist of boring hallways for the majority of the time. AoTCR. I fucking know that level like the back of my hand. I didn't need a reminder by the time I got to TB because it took so long to get through it in the first place to where I know where everything is, and what happened where, etc. Same for the winding hallways of the Maw. Or the winding hallways of Keyes. I wouldn't have minded going through the underbelly of the Covenant ship (on the ground) and having the actual option to backtrack to find Keyes, alongside actual new routes, much like I wouldn't have minded actual new routes for the Maw, outside of a few service ducts.

 

(Little off-topic rant, but I always hated how you started off right in front of Keyes when that mission started. Just punch the bloody window to pieces, crawl through, get the chip, and GTFO. Why even backtrack when you're RIGHT THERE.)

 

However, there's a level of Halo 5 where you entirely backtrack through the third level (Glassed) and the way they did that was perfect. You went to the location on foot initially (And a tank for the last 5 minutes), and came back on a Warthog in the backtrack level. The aesthetic change to the level were on the level of CE, basically a skybox change and some layout alterations (Bridge is destroyed this time around and wreckage is strewn about) meaning you'd potentially notice the backtrack if you looked close enough, but what made it 10X better over Two Betrayals or any other backtracker was the insane change in pace. The bulk of the level isn't backtracking despite the mission containing that element. You speed through the same area you came through on a Warthog, get it out of the way, and the bulk of the level is spent in the space elevator and on the destroyed tip of the construct, an inverse to Glassed, where only 30 seconds were spent on the elevator and its nearby building complexes and the rest was on the open lands of Meridian. Glassed/Evacuation did it right, and Truth and Recon/Keyes got it half right, but the other CE backtracking missions are sooooooo boring, and to me, terrible to play through on anything but the first time.

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Don't you ever say anything bad about DOOM ever

It's a decent game, not worth full retail price. Old Doom is better, come at me.

wqIVQIy.gif

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I've never understood the complaints about backtracking at all. The later levels play COMPLETELY differently, because Bungie smartly utilized their spaces and their sandboxes to guarantee as much. That kind of flexibility is only featured in CE's campaign. You have different weapons and vehicles, different objectives, different battlefield compositions, different routes (and in the opposite direction). Anyone who thinks Assault on the Control Room and Two Betrayals play even remotely alike needs to get their head checked. It's actually baffling. And beyond that, the reuse of familiar territory helped reinforce the sense of place that H1 thrived on, being a game more about exploration of the setting than plot. You're going in and then you're coming back out again. I think H2 brought a LOT to the table in terms of storytelling, but the level and sandbox design was never on par (and the boss fights were hot ass). H3 was much closer, mainly because it brought back the sense of scale.

The Storm into Floodgate was probably my favourite instances of backtracking ever, so surreal seeing the force of the UNSC infested beyond recognition literally straight after taking down a covenant army there.

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It's apparently not meant to be tonight. XBL is fucking up hardcore and nothing wants to work. This sucks. We would have had a really good lobby.

It's Halo 5, not XBL. Played tons of games of Reach BTB tonight with no problem:)

 

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The Storm into Floodgate was probably my favourite instances of backtracking ever, so surreal seeing the force of the UNSC infested beyond recognition literally straight after taking down a covenant army there.

That was actually a really good level for backtracking too, yeah. Especially with the radical change in the established environment, with the ground collapsing and all, and the portal looming ominously in the sky.

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It's Halo 5, not XBL. Played tons of games of Reach BTB tonight with no problem:)

The issues affected more than the game. Affected parties as well. It was a XBL issue specific to the One platform, not the 360, hence why you didn't suffer issues. Nice try, though. 

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It's Halo 5, not XBL. Played tons of games of Reach BTB tonight with no problem:)

 

I played Gwent: The witcher card game the whole day yesterday as well, so it must have been Halo 5. 

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The issues affected more than the game. Affected parties as well. It was a XBL issue specific to the One platform, not the 360, hence why you didn't suffer issues. Nice try, though. 

Affected Overwatch and Destiny too, as well as party chat going down.

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ODST is the undisputed best campaign. So much replayability. After that CE and H3 are the next best, then H2 and H4 are in the next tier down. H2 would probably be in or near that CE-H3 tier if jackal sniper spawns, especially in Regret and the first Outskirts fight, didn't have a great deal of randomness to them (i.e. any given sniper gauntlet will spawn anywhere from 3-5 snipers, but there like 8 possible locations for them that you can't check without exposing yourself horribly), and if combat forms didn't have just as high a chance of spawning with a shotgun or rockets as they do a plasma rifle or SMG.

 

H5 and Reach are tied for the bottom spot. Both are pathetically designed in every respect, from the enemies themselves to the maps.

 

This backtracking argument is complete bullshit, by the way. Flood and covenant play completely differently, not to mention in Keyes and Maw you have important weapons available to you that were NOT available in TnR and Pillar of Autumn.

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Campaign gameplay beyond how movement and the guns feel is mostly irrelevant. Most instances of backtracking will have a shift in their human expression, which is exactly how you make tap into collective human mythology. And tapping into collective human mythology is how you produce ANY intense emotion or beauty in a story, although most people aren't observant enough to notice this fact so they'll ignore it entirely.

 

Mythology is produced in two ways:

1: "throughlining" - repeated story or art structures (like videogame areas) with certain elements changed, such that the common element is a vague background implication of a collective human experience. Its repeated presence turns it from an idea into an emotion, which is not as easy if you display the story or art structure (the level, in this case). An example is are the repeated rainy themes of the Rookie's parts in ODST.

2: "contrasting" - the opposite, where the story or art structures change their human expression to create a "dialogue" which magnifies each type of expression.

 

The two can be mixed, obviously. ODST "throughlines" the "dark, rainy and alone" theme - this produces the grey, unemotional idea of the memory we all have ("we all" = collective experience = mythology) of that kind of feeling, and continuing this motif for long enough with enough novelty in between will convert it from the grey emotionless idea into a deep and beautiful emotional impression. However, it uses the second type which is "contrasting" with the missions of the other ODSTs during the daytime (referring to "the memory of better times" or "being left out by the older kids"), which creates a longing to be with that type of mythological character (which ends up being satisfied at the end). The game finishes at dawn with those other characters from before (referring to "enlightenment" [literally - dawn is no accident], "redemption and reward", "coming of age", etc.). And people think they like ODST because "the sky looks pretty" or "the music is nice", and the kicker is - drumroll - they DO like ODST for those reasons, but not just because it's intrinsically beautiful, but because it's both intrinsically beautiful AND has a human expression in musical tones, musical samples, repeated visual effects, etc., which are coherent with the mythology of the story. And any lack of mythological coherence gets filtered out and ignored.

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You would think with how often im here, i would play with you all more. Random thought of the day

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You would think with how often im here, i would play with you all more. Random thought of the day

We could have fixed that last night but XBL was a boner.

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