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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I personally prefer linear campaigns to "go anywhere" stuff. Yes it was cool back in the day when it was new and exciting, but the most praised levels in the first game- Halo, Silent Cartographer and AOTC - are absolute slogs to get through now outside of co-op. The nostalgia can't carry me past it. Sometimes I feel the same way about Mombasa Streets from ODST, but the atmosphere and gameplay at least sells it for me.

 

I think the problem with Halo 2 moreso than the other games is that every level was super narrow.

Cairo Station is a series of rooms, Outskirts is a street, a small beach and then a series of tunnels, Metropolis is a bridge, a highway and then a walkway, The Arbiter is a series of hallways, The Oracle is a series of rooms, Delta Halo is a series of corridors, Regret is a series of bridges and chambers, Sacred Icon is a series of chambers, Gravemind and High Charity are all hallways, and even Uprising is a bunch of vehicle channels.

 

It opens up with Quarantine Zone and The Great Journey at least, but you can always see the walls in your field of view.

 

Halo 3 and Reach were both linear, but they had a great mix of indoor and outdoor spaces. Halo 2 is just a bunch of rooms, and many of those rooms are grindy killboxes like The Oracle. And yea, when you can barely use the sandbox to kill anything, it can get repetitive pretty quick. I still find those levels endearing for that reason though; mixing and matching weapons to tackle the next bullet sponge was far more interesting in Halo 2 than it is in Halo 5.

I actually think that's super interesting actually, how you view the linearity as a good thing. You might've just convinced me.

 

Which explains why Crows Nest is one of my favorite levels of all time.

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If i want open world with lots of options, I'll play skyrim or dragon age.

 

I like my pure shooters to be pretty linear. People complain when campaigns are "on rails" but i dont see the problem with that as long as its purposefully designed to tell me a story. People want open-world because its trendy, not because it actually helps give you a better experience.

 

Halo 5 is the worst offender here. They are really pushing you through a pretty linear campaign while trying to trick you into thinking its more "open" with options for exploration. Really that boils down to a necessity to find intel to understand wtf is going on and an excuse to spartan charge through suspiciously cracked walls and oversized air vents.

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I actually think that's super interesting actually, how you view the linearity as a good thing. You might've just convinced me.

 

Which explains why Crows Nest is one of my favorite levels of all time.

 

There's a time and place for both. I think the problem with Halo 2 was that there wasn't really any variation. Crows Nest is a narrow level too, but then you get to play Tsavo Highway afterwards and breathe. Like how a good album has slow songs and then faster ones. 

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Bullet sponge brutes.

I know Bungie said this. I know most people in general say this.

 

But I have literally never had trouble quickly dispatching Brutes in Halo 2 compared to Elites. The magnetism in Halo 2 is actually extremely reliable in headshotting them even when berserk, and I find the Carbine and Needler are extremely abundant in levels that have Brutes and so are plasma grenades. They are very bad at dodging plasma grenades. That's already more options than killing Elites on legendary.

 

Elites are always getting a pass when they're easily more broken than Brutes in Halo 2. They melt you in 5 shots on legendary with absolute perfect accuracy (Brutes I've already checked in Assembly don't have 1:1 accuracy on legendary) and dodge both needles and grenades very easily. Ultra Elites have more shields than the strongest Brute rank does health. There is absolutely no contest for me because if you don't have a plasma pistol Elites will always melt you and dodge everything you send back.

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@@Hard Way

 

when are you gonna make more videos on your channel man? you have such great previous content, if you get the chance you should definitely make more :)

 

I just have absolutely no motivation or inspiration right now.

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It amazes me how much of an afterthought the design for the Brutes were in Halo 2 and they're still more intimidating, more interesting and more challenging to fight than every promethean enemy. And that's not even me hating on 343. With the exception of the knights in Halo 4 (which were incredibly aggressive for some reason), the Prometheans just seem dull and lifeless 

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It amazes me how much of an afterthought the design for the Brutes were in Halo 2 and they're still more intimidating, more interesting and more challenging to fight than every promethean enemy. And that's not even me hating on 343. With the exception of the knights in Halo 4 (which were incredibly aggressive for some reason), the Prometheans just seem dull and lifeless 

  • You've got the Crawlers who are a pain in the ass to kill because their head hitbox is weird as shit and if you miss, their head is likely to get stuck in the ground during their flinch animation forcing you to wait a second or two before you can finish your kill off. 
  • Soldiers just don't have any visual indication that they are taking damage compared to an Elite which has shield flare. Even the Brutes in Halo 3 showed progressive damage against their shield. They learned their lesson recently after they added damage states to the Grunt Goblin. Why they didn't go back and modify the Soldiers is beyond me.
  • Knights are much improved in Halo 5 and are used appropriately in the campaign but they just throw them in your face far too often in Warzone Firefight. 
  • Fuck Warden.

It still amazes me that Bungie nailed the Elites, Grunts and Jackals in one game while only making minor tweaks as the continued to make Halo games. 343 had to rework every Promethean leading into Halo 5 and likely will rework them again for Halo 6.

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If i want open world with lots of options, I'll play skyrim or dragon age.

 

I like my pure shooters to be pretty linear. People complain when campaigns are "on rails" but i dont see the problem with that as long as its purposefully designed to tell me a story. People want open-world because its trendy, not because it actually helps give you a better experience.

 

Halo 5 is the worst offender here. They are really pushing you through a pretty linear campaign while trying to trick you into thinking its more "open" with options for exploration. Really that boils down to a necessity to find intel to understand wtf is going on and an excuse to spartan charge through suspiciously cracked walls and oversized air vents.

 

When people like me complain about linearity in level design and lack of challenge/creative options in the modern shooter campaign it has to do with the level design itself not that its story-driven or otherwise. You can have great story-driven games and still have non-linear and more complex level design(see Deus Ex HR). The modern shooter is very advanced technically, but gameplay design wise is greatly simplified and made to hand-hold and control the players path and actions too often. Without the amazing cut-scenes and all the "fireworks" used to distract and wow the player I wonder how much "fun" alot of these modern shooter campaigns would actually be? Just think about it, whens the last time you had a strong urge to want to replay a modern shooter campaign? Its like a nice summer blockbuster movie, all the fireworks and excitement flashing on the screen are fun to indulge in once in awhile but its not something you are ever going to desire to go back to for its complexity and creativity.

 

Doom 2016 had great non-linear level design though, and it reminded people of what quality level design looks like in a shooter. In my opinion, its not as mazy or replayable as Doom 1 or Doom 2's but still did justice for the series. Shadow Warrior 2 had some interesting level design as well.

 

http://www.gamespot.com/images/1300-3082280

 

http://i.imgur.com/Vx5xm.jpg

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Any article or any data at all on how big and popular arena shooter were "back in the day"? I'm curious about actual numbers.

Not any actual population numbers or so other then price money but ain't Fatal1ty the #1 most payed player when it comes to esports winnings, I mean based on a article from like last year or so he was still the most payed winner compared to modern gamers back then.

Anyway google'd it now and by the looks of it he's down to #79 in the world, still not bad considering the state of arena shooters these days and it says a lot about the game industry.

 

 

http://www.esportsearnings.com/players/1139-fatal1ty-johnathan-wendel

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Non-linear and open-world aren't necessarily the same thing.

 

I mean all Halo missions are "linear" in the sense there's a beginning and an end.  Yet it's possible for even cramped indoor missions to have multiple paths instead of just only one path to reach the end.  Traditional shooters like DOOM actually feature quite a bit of these.

 

The first level of Halo Ce could be used as somewhat of an example of this.  There's different hallways and crawlspaces you can use.

 

To illustrate my point though:

http://i.imgur.com/ldC7ByM.png

 

Edit:  Hitman beat me to it.

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  • You've got the Crawlers who are a pain in the ass to kill because their head hitbox is weird as shit and if you miss, their head is likely to get stuck in the ground during their flinch animation forcing you to wait a second or two before you can finish your kill off. 
  • Soldiers just don't have any visual indication that they are taking damage compared to an Elite which has shield flare. Even the Brutes in Halo 3 showed progressive damage against their shield. They learned their lesson recently after they added damage states to the Grunt Goblin. Why they didn't go back and modify the Soldiers is beyond me.
  • Knights are much improved in Halo 5 and are used appropriately in the campaign but they just throw them in your face far too often in Warzone Firefight. 
  • Fuck Warden.

It still amazes me that Bungie nailed the Elites, Grunts and Jackals in one game while only making minor tweaks as the continued to make Halo games. 343 had to rework every Promethean leading into Halo 5 and likely will rework them again for Halo 6.

 

 

That's what happens when you don't have any real vision beyond "be different than Bungie". 

 

 

Non-linear and open-world aren't necessarily the same thing.

 

I mean all Halo missions are "linear" in the sense there's a beginning and an end.  Yet it's possible for even cramped indoor missions to have multiple paths instead of just only one path to reach the end.  Traditional shooters like DOOM actually feature quite a bit of these.

 

The first level of Halo Ce could be used as somewhat of an example of this.  There's different hallways and crawlspaces you can use.

 

To illustrate my point though:

http://i.imgur.com/ldC7ByM.png

 

Edit:  Hitman beat me to it.

 

Yea Halo 2 is a lot like the one on the left unfortunately.  

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Halo 3's campaign was good for the most part ( Fuck the cortana mission)

 

Halo 1's campaign was alright. Loved the 343 gulity spark mission ( Didn't like the backtracking tho)

 

Halo 2's campaign was great. Arbiter was awesome. The lines was great for the most part. ( Fuck those Jackal " aimbot" snipers)

 

Halo 4' campaign was medicore.. The ending was kinda cringe worthy and the soundtrack was ok ( Had the best never forget versjon) prometheans was awful to fight.

 

 

Halo 5 was good for the most part. Narrative was dogshit. Fireteam osiris was medicore And buck was overrated. ( Fuck warden eternal) Ost was good and Level design was good.

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When people like me complain about linearity in level design and lack of challenge/creative options in the modern shooter campaign it has to do with the level design itself not that its story-driven or otherwise. You can have great story-driven games and still have non-linear and more complex level design(see Deus Ex HR). The modern shooter is very advanced technically, but gameplay design wise is greatly simplified and made to hand-hold and control the players path and actions too often. Without the amazing cut-scenes and all the "fireworks" used to distract and wow the player I wonder how much "fun" alot of these modern shooter campaigns would actually be? Just think about it, whens the last time you had a strong urge to want to replay a modern shooter campaign? Its like a nice summer blockbuster movie, all the fireworks and excitement flashing on the screen are fun to indulge in once in awhile but its not something you are ever going to desire to go back to for its complexity and creativity.

 

Doom 2016 had great non-linear level design though, and it reminded people of what quality level design looks like in a shooter. In my opinion, its not as mazy or replayable as Doom 1 or Doom 2's but still did justice for the series. Shadow Warrior 2 had some interesting level design as well.

 

http://www.gamespot.com/images/1300-3082280

 

http://i.imgur.com/Vx5xm.jpg

A couple of the levels in Doom 4 were pretty good and nonlinear, but almost everything after the Cyberdemon fight was pretty much just straight lines.

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Anybody wanna get a BTB lobby going tonight? Possibly some streaming and definitely some drunk Hard Way.

@@Mythik Nick, @My Namez Beast, @, @OG Nick, @, @@Ramirez77, @@Sitri, @@Moa, @@Apoll0, @@MultiLockOn, @@Killmachine, @@Teapot, @@Kell Of Scots, @@wow, @@TryHardFan

 

I may edit this later to add names, but this isn't invite only.  If you would like to join up, we'd love to have you.

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Anybody wanna get a BTB lobby going tonight? Possibly some streaming and definitely some drunk Hard Way.

 

@@Mythik Nick, @My Namez Beast, @, @OG Nick, @, @@Ramirez77, @@Sitri, @@Moa, @@Apoll0, @@MultiLockOn, @@Killmachine, @@Teapot, @@Kell Of Scots

 

I may edit this later to add names, but this isn't invite only.  If you would like to join up, we'd love to have you.

I'm all up for it. Gotta love destroying people's booties.

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I'm all up for it. Gotta love destroying people's booties.

 

Ahh, destroying booty. One of, nay, my favorite pastime.

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Anybody wanna get a BTB lobby going tonight? Possibly some streaming and definitely some drunk Hard Way.

 

@@Mythik Nick, @My Namez Beast, @, @OG Nick, @, @@Ramirez77, @@Sitri, @@Moa, @@Apoll0, @@MultiLockOn, @@Killmachine, @@Teapot, @@Kell Of Scots, @@wow, @@TryHardFan

 

I may edit this later to add names, but this isn't invite only. If you would like to join up, we'd love to have you.

I got on because I saw this and you're not on :(

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I got on because I saw this and you're not on :(

gotta give time for people to see it homie. I'm gettin on don't worry. right meow.

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Anybody wanna get a BTB lobby going tonight? Possibly some streaming and definitely some drunk Hard Way.

 

@@Mythik Nick, @My Namez Beast, @, @OG Nick, @, @@Ramirez77, @@Sitri, @@Moa, @@Apoll0, @@MultiLockOn, @@Killmachine, @@Teapot, @@Kell Of Scots, @@wow, @@TryHardFan

 

I may edit this later to add names, but this isn't invite only. If you would like to join up, we'd love to have you.

I'd love that.

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Love when Xbox live has stupid fucking problems every week how is this a thing.

 

"Your privacy settings prevent you from talking to anyone"

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