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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Damn r/halo and Waypoints responses to issues suck.

"Obviously all these people are having this issue, but I'm not, so 343 should ignore it and make more REQs"

This is why MCC is in the state that it is.

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I've been saying this launch.

 

Removing the headshot and ADS bonus would balance the AR. No more inconsistent 12-15-shot bullshit and AR sniping.

 

Do the same for the SMG and bump up the respawn times. On the bright side, the Storm Rifle is finally balanced after a fucking year.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves
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One big problem when listening to the "majority" of Halo players is that they don't know anything about balance. As long as they can get easy kills with their AR they think the game is perfectly balanced. Not to mention they are afraid of change.

It's not the majority job to know/care about competitive balance. They just buy and play games that they enjoy. If the majority prefers to have a game with easy AR kills, then there had better be an avenue for them to do that. That's basic economics. You can always have seperate modes for those who prefer a more competitive balance. Then everyone is happy.

 

You can have a perfectly balanced game, if the masses don't enjoy it, it won't sell.

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Do the same for the SMG and bump up the respawn times. On the bright side, the Storm Rifle is finally balanced after a fucking year.

Making something spawn less frequently does not suddenly make the frustration of contending against a brainless weapon any smaller. As for why 343 hasn't replaced the storm rifle with the PR for every map is beyond my comprehension.
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As for why 343 hasn't replaced the storm rifle with the PR for every map is beyond my comprehension.

 

"Variety"

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It's not the majority job to know/care about competitive balance. They just buy and play games that they enjoy. If the majority prefers to have a game with easy AR kills, then there had better be an avenue for them to do that. That's basic economics. You can always have seperate modes for those who prefer a more competitive balance. Then everyone is happy.

 

You can have a perfectly balanced game, if the masses don't enjoy it, it won't sell.

They would play it regardless. They do not have discerning taste. If the aesthetics are there then they're good. Well balanced weapons only become a problem for them when they play against better players that can consistently kill them. The solution is skill matching, not ruining the weapon balance for everyone.

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It's not the majority job to know/care about competitive balance. They just buy and play games that they enjoy. If the majority prefers to have a game with easy AR kills, then there had better be an avenue for them to do that. That's basic economics. You can always have seperate modes for those who prefer a more competitive balance. Then everyone is happy.

 

You can have a perfectly balanced game, if the masses don't enjoy it, it won't sell.

Do you honestly think that if 343 listened to this forum exclusively for weapon balance in H6 more casual players wouldn't buy it?

 

I really don't think people specifically buy halo because they want easy AR kills--maybe for the immersion of feeling like a Spartan, maybe for the lore, maybe because of the BTB vehicle chaos--but I think the only players who care about weapon balance before the purchase (outside of splinters are OP etc) are competitive players or competitively minded casuals.

 

I think you are going out on a limb to make sure every special snowflake seems like it has a place in the grand scheme of halo, and limbs break.

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It's not the majority job to know/care about competitive balance. They just buy and play games that they enjoy. If the majority prefers to have a game with easy AR kills, then there had better be an avenue for them to do that. That's basic economics. You can always have seperate modes for those who prefer a more competitive balance. Then everyone is happy.

 

You can have a perfectly balanced game, if the masses don't enjoy it, it won't sell.

You're right but the problem isn't that they don't have an avenue for their own brand of fun game play. Its that ours gets shit on in the process for no reason other than someone had the bright idea that identical settings between casual and competitive modes somehow resulted in the best possible results when it doesn't and never has as far as Halo goes. We have boltshots, needlers, and silenced ARs on the "competitive" maps. There just isn't a reason for that connected even remotely to the games meta or skill gap. Its just there to make the map look pretty and maybe someone will run out of ammo or feel troll enough to pick one up and kill people. It kills me how much of the competitive settings are actually just some stupid attempt to placate people who don't care about them to begin with. 

 

Imo Halo 5 is the first online Halo that doesn't have a competitive playlist. What we have can only be described as social skirmish (like in Halo 2) and social skirmish with loose skill matching in two different hoppers. Team Hardcore is just MIA

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I'm assuming those as well but the last sets they've added have no jet trails. It'll save your life every now and then if you're sprinting up behind someone or need to stabilize

Sprinting noises are still there actually, only stabilizer noise is gone and groundpound "lock on" noise is gone. You're right about the no jet trail thing though, but I don't see how these things are going to affect gameplay.

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They would play it regardless. They do not have discerning taste. If the aesthetics are there then they're good. Well balanced weapons only become a problem for them when they play against better players that can consistently kill them. The solution is skill matching, not ruining the weapon balance for everyone.

Of course you don't "ruin balance for everyone" you allow everyone to play the game how they like to play it.

 

I love comments like "they don't have discerning taste"... so generalized and condescending...

 

The most poorly balanced game mode in halo history is currently the most popular playlist.

 

The most balanced playlists from the golden years have always been the least populated.

 

Poor taste? Maybe, but that's subjective. In reality the majority of the fan base values something OTHER than competitive balance. That's their prerogative. Who are we to say they are wrong? It's like looking down on someone for eating pork because it's unhealthy. Well, bacon is delicious.

 

It's the job of the developer to appeal to as many people as possible alienating the existing base. In the case of Halo, that SHOULD mean a game that has competitive merit for those who seek it. And those who seek something else, they should have it too.

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You're right but the problem isn't that they don't have an avenue for their own brand of fun game play. Its that ours gets shit on in the process for no reason other than someone had the bright idea that identical settings between casual and competitive modes somehow resulted in the best possible results when it doesn't and never has as far as Halo goes. We have boltshots, needlers, and silenced ARs on the "competitive" maps. There just isn't a reason for that connected even remotely to the games meta or skill gap. Its just there to make the map look pretty and maybe someone will run out of ammo or feel troll enough to pick one up and kill people. It kills me how much of the competitive settings are actually just some stupid attempt to placate people who don't care about them to begin with.

 

Imo Halo 5 is the first online Halo that doesn't have a competitive playlist. What we have can only be described as social skirmish (like in Halo 2) and social skirmish with loose skill matching in two different hoppers. Team Hardcore is just MIA

This is correct. There currently isn't an avenue for competitive play because 343 is hung up on this idea of merging the two audiences. Just separate them, and people will come over to the good side when/if they are ready.

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Sprinting noises are still there actually, only stabilizer noise is gone and groundpound "lock on" noise is gone. You're right about the no jet trail thing though, but I don't see how these things are going to affect gameplay.

I've heard people stabilizing near me on multiple occasions and lead me to getting kills on them. Not having that loud ass sound is a pretty cool buff if you ask me

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It's not the majority job to know/care about competitive balance. They just buy and play games that they enjoy. If the majority prefers to have a game with easy AR kills, then there had better be an avenue for them to do that. That's basic economics. You can always have seperate modes for those who prefer a more competitive balance. Then everyone is happy.

 

You can have a perfectly balanced game, if the masses don't enjoy it, it won't sell.

Thats so blatantly untrue lmao. If that's the case then why aren't communities designing games themselves?

 

THEY DONT KNOW WHAT REALLY WANT. THEY HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT WHATS BEST FOR THE GAME.

 

giving players what you THINK they want tesults in trash games, this is game design 101 pls learn.

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Easy AR kills means no incentive to use harder weapons.

 

Which means once people reach a level where they're good enough to use more skillful weapons it won't matter because those weapons offer no significant advantage for much higher effort requirements.

 

Which means the game devolves into a meta of doing nothing but spraying AR's.

 

Which means the game lacks depth or any reason to stick around and improve at it.

 

Which means people grow bored and just leave the game.

 

That doesn't mean a meta where precision weapons are the only effective weapons with a skill gap is ideal either, but a meta with one weapon class requiring skill is still better than a meta where none of the effective weapons have any skill gap at all.

 

I believe in trickle down balance.  Balance everything around top-tier play.  That way in skilled hands you have all weapons actually equal, instead of several weapons that just become completely irrelevant as you rise in skill levels.

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Thats so blatantly untrue lmao. If that's the case then why aren't communities designing games themselves?

 

THEY DONT KNOW WHAT REALLY WANT. THEY HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT WHATS BEST FOR THE GAME.

 

giving players what you THINK they want tesults in trash games, this is game design 101 pls learn.

Wow...Umm... that's the exact opposite of what it said.

 

It's NOT the players job to know or care whether a game is competively balanced. It's not the players job to consider 'the best interests'. Balance will inform some players decision to play. For many others it will not.

 

If a player likes a game he will buy and play it. If he doesn't like it, he won't.

 

The halo community at large has a history of gravitating to the playlists with the least competitive merit and shying away from the ones with the tightest balance. The players that do this simply value something different than you or I. There's nothing wrong with that. They just like something different.

 

The problem arises when players with different interests can't find something the like within this games offerings.

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Of course you don't "ruin balance for everyone" you allow everyone to play the game how they like to play it.

 

I love comments like "they don't have discerning taste"... so generalized and condescending...

 

The most poorly balanced game mode in halo history is currently the most popular playlist.

 

The most balanced playlists from the golden years have always been the least populated.

 

Poor taste? Maybe, but that's subjective. In reality the majority of the fan base values something OTHER than competitive balance. That's their prerogative. Who are we to say they are wrong? It's like looking down on someone for eating pork because it's unhealthy. Well, bacon is delicious.

 

It's the job of the developer to appeal to as many people as possible alienating the existing base. In the case of Halo, that SHOULD mean a game that has competitive merit for those who seek it. And those who seek something else, they should have it too.

 

You are basically suggesting we get another Reach with the TU vs Vanilla vs ZBNS vs Anniversary vs GoldPro mess (I miss Reach GP btw). Now I'm not the biggest fan of 343's implementation of "unified settings", there is no way to please both crowds within the same playlist, certain things will never be agreed upon in the context of Halo. However, after a certain point it just becomes silly. Giving the Bronze kids a sandbox designed around a stupid OP AR and CoD like killtimes to keep them happy within their safe space, but at the same time desiging a completely different sandbox that actually works for competitive settings is a giant waste of dev time, creates even more divide in the community and makes the game unplayable in casual modes for anyone who is actually decent at the game.

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You are basically suggesting we get another Reach with the TU vs Vanilla vs ZBNS vs Anniversary vs GoldPro mess (I miss Reach GP btw). Now I'm not the biggest fan of 343's implementation of "unified settings", there is no way to please both crowds within the same playlist, certain things will never be agreed upon in the context of Halo. However, after a certain point it just becomes silly. Giving the Bronze kids a sandbox designed around a stupid OP AR and CoD like killtimes to keep them happy within their safe space, but at the same time desiging a completely different sandbox that actually works for competitive settings is a giant waste of dev time, creates even more divide in the community and makes the game unplayable in casual modes for anyone who is actually decent at the game.

No that's not what I'm suggesting at all.

 

I'm saying launch the game with a plethora of weapons (which they have done), but (above all else) make sure that there is a complete suite of standard weapons that are balanced for competitive play (which they have not done).

 

Only allow the competitive weapons in the HCS playlist.

 

In the other playlists, there is naturally more room for flexibility with regards to starting weapons and weapons on map.

 

What ACTUALLY divides the community is when they are forced to play in playlists that aren't quite tuned to their liking, so the blame another part of the community for their influence. (Which is exactly what's happening now).

 

The idea that social team Skirmish and Team HCS need to have the same exact weapons for the purpose of 'unity' is nonsense. The people who main Team skirmish don't give a fuck about what goes on in HCS or vice versa. Having them use the same weapons and settings provides no actual benefit.

 

It really wouldn't rob dev time to make a buffed Magnum, a sniper that doesn't auto head shot, and a weaker AR, then stick those weapons in the Team Arena playlist. 343i literally puts out weapons with tweaked stats EVERYTIME there's an update.

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I love comments like "they don't have discerning taste"... so generalized and condescending...

 

The most poorly balanced game mode in halo history is currently the most popular playlist.

 

Thanks for proving me correct. Is it still condescending if it's demonstratively true?  Oh, by the way, Halo 5's population retention is dog shit compared to previous Halo games that actually did what I'm advocating. Might wanna consider that.

 

Casuals won't care if the autos are out-performed by the loadout precision weapons.  (Citation: Halo 1, Halo 2, Halo 3, Halo: Reach, Halo 4).  They don't think about stuff like that. That is not what affects their enthusiasm for the game, so you might as well make the weapon balance actually good. It won't affect population among low skilled players, especially if you actually match them against each other like you should be doing.

 

How does it feel to argue in favor of knowingly bad weapon balance, and to defend the status quo of the worst population retention in a Halo game ever? I'm having a hard time understanding your motivation.

 

Edit: After reading your posts after the one I quoted, I understand a little better. I'm with you on the different map layouts for comp/social. I'm fine with having a more liberal use of weapons in Social Skirmish than in Team Arena. Where we disagree is having the weapons themselves perform differently in different playlists. It's just not necessary. They won't care. They never have. Balance your sandbox from the top of your skillgap down.

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I legit thought earlier when I clicked on Ogre 2's Stream that he was playing CoD4 remastered or something, but once he zoomed out from his BR it was Halo 5.

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I legit thought earlier when I clicked on Ogre 2's Stream that he was playing CoD4 remastered or something, but once he zoomed out from his BR is was Halo 5.

So you somehow thought he was aiming through an M16 red dot sight? Kappa

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Thanks for proving me correct. Is it still condescending if it's demonstratively true? Oh, by the way, Halo 5's population retention is dog shit compared to previous Halo games that actually did what I'm advocating. Might wanna consider that.

 

Casuals won't care if the autos are out-performed by the loadout precision weapons. (Citation: Halo 1, Halo 2, Halo 3, Halo: Reach, Halo 4). They don't think about stuff like that. That is not what affects their enthusiasm for the game, so you might as well make the weapon balance actually good. It won't affect population among low skilled players, especially if you actually match them against each other like you should be doing.

 

How does it feel to argue in favor of knowingly bad weapon balance, and to defend the status quo of the worst population retention in a Halo game ever? I'm having a hard time understanding your motivation.

 

Edit: After reading your posts after the one I quoted, I understand a little better. I'm with you on the different map layouts for comp/social. I'm fine with having a more liberal use of weapons in Social Skirmish than in Team Arena. Where we disagree is having the weapons themselves perform differently in different playlists. It's just not necessary. They won't care. They never have. Balance your sandbox from the top of your skillgap down.

First of all I didn't prove you right. And I'm not arguing IN FAVOR of poor balance.

 

What I'm saying is good balance is objective. But the aspects of a game that individuals actually value is subjective. It's not a matter of good or bad taste. It's a matter of different tastes. Your particular taste isn't more correct than anyone else's.

 

Halo 5s retention has little to do with how Team Arena is balanced. The most balanced halo game Wasn't the best selling. Halo 2 had the best player retention overall, and it was horribly balanced compared to CE, and balance mostly went down hill from there (but sales did not, until 5... even though Reach and h4 balancing was worse). In terms of the vanilla balancing, H5 is really right in the running with 2 and 3... even better in some ways. The most balanced playlists (team hardcore/ MLG) were the least populated in every game.

 

Secondly, I don't think weapons should perform differently in different playlists. I NEVER said that. I think there should literally be different weapons in different playlists.

 

The HCS playlist should have a buffed mag (either 4SK or 2x zoom and higher ROF, IMO ) and nerfed sniper (way less magnetism) and nerfed automatics. The Req system would allow 343 to make these changes to Team Arena w/o causing confusion, because they could simply make new weapons to properly fill these rolls.

 

Thirdly, you're right casuals won't care if Autos are out performed by precision loadout weapons. But they DO care if Autos don't feel like they pack an appropriate punch. Like I've said REPEATEDLY: Most players don't know or care about proper balancing. They just know if they are having fun or not. One of the common comments I've heard from non-competitive players is "I like how automatics feel useful this time". Who are we to invalidate their take on fun? So if you nerf the AR so that it doesn't hamper HCS, but it saps some the fun out of Warzone for the people who like that mode, is it worth it? Why not just have a different AR variant between the two modes?

 

As far as dev priorities. 1) You make your competitive weapon suite and maps designed to utilize that suite. 2) from there you branch out with the understanding that what works for competitive players isn't neccisarily fun for everyone else

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Balance is really easy to explain objectively in a vacuum.

 

All primary weapons should have a [damage output] / [ease-of-use] ratio that is very close to the same.

 

Right now in H5, that ratio is totally fucked.

 

Damage output is easy. Just measure it.

 

"Ease of use" is much harder to quantify. To some players the AR is actually hard to use! Who do you trust to figure out the "ease of use" question? To us the answer is easy: the best fucking people in the game.

 

All the top players say that the autos are too powerful.

 

You can either make them super hard to use, nerf base damage significantly or a combination of both.

 

Personally, i think lower tier players will notice if a gun is harder to aim more than they would a damage decrease. So lean on a damage decrease.

 

I really dont see how this is that hard.

 

Edit addendum: im not saying that nerfing autos neds to be severe or the only thing to be done, but i do think its one of the first things that needs to be done.

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Ideal competitive design to me is having automatics both be powerhouses and require skill/strategy to use.

 

Automatics have never come close to meeting the damage / effort ratio that precision weapons have.

 

If you make them low power and low effort they just remain pointless crutch weapons that never see use in competitive play.

If you make them high power and low effort they destroy the skillgap of the game.

 

To me high power and high effort is the only valid answer to the automatic problem.  And I do believe this is achievable.

 

None of this taking into account how casuals feel about being denied their low-effort weapons.

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I seriously have to stand in a hot shower for 5-10 minutes before I play this game or else I play like shit because it's impossible to fight this garbage aiming system if your body is even remotely cold.

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