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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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So because people like unbalanced things it should never change?

 

I'm sure the majority were happy with Halo 4's sandbox and how there was zero reason to use anything other than the DMR but that didn't stop from changing almost every aspect of the sandbox 7 months in.

Changing things which people were asking not to be changed is how we got shit like Infinity Slayer. 

 

I don't think that the sandbox is perfect but I think 343 is doing the right thing by not changing things. They're listening to the majority of their playerbase which is what devs should do. Nerfing things like autos would piss off a very large amount of the community. 

 

I actually agree with a lot of the complaints on here, but there are better ways of balancing the competitive side of H5. Changing the base weapon values affects the entire game and for a lot of people would be a negative change. 

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Changing things which people were asking not to be changed is how we got shit like Infinity Slayer. 

 

I don't think that the sandbox is perfect but I think 343 is doing the right thing by not changing things. They're listening to the majority of their playerbase which is what devs should do. 

So you think we should leave the sandbox in a poor state?

 

You don't think the sandbox is perfect (and many others don't either, not even close) but we should leave it the same because the majority lack the knowledge to see why it sucks?

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Changing things which people were asking not to be changed is how we got shit like Infinity Slayer. 

 

I don't think that the sandbox is perfect but I think 343 is doing the right thing by not changing things. They're listening to the majority of their playerbase which is what devs should do. Nerfing things like autos would piss off a very large amount of the community. 

 

I actually agree with a lot of the complaints on here, but there are better ways of balancing the competitive side of H5. Changing the base weapon values affects the entire game and for a lot of people would be a negative change. 

 

Games development is not a democracy and not a popularity contest. The vast majority of gamers has no idea what's going on under the hood and wants to stay in their comfort zone. If we always listenend to the majority Halo would probably be in an even worse state than it is right now.

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Since you edited your post I'll reply again.

 

The only people who are fine with automatics are people who do not care about a decent sandbox in Halo 5. I'm sure the majority of Halo 4's population were fine with the DMR but it didn't stop them from the sandbox rework in June 2013.

 

  • The Assault Rifle is far too good for its ease of use.
  • The Storm Rifle melts shields far too fast and does an absurd amount of health damage - this has kind of been rectified with the recent change to make it a Tier 2 weapon (I think? @Infinity). The Brute Plasma Rifle does a much better job at what the Storm Rifle should have been. Melts shields fast but force players to switch to a precision weapon to clean up the kill.
  • The Sniper Rifle has become a weapon that you don't even dare to challenge because even if you get descoped, you'll just swing and fire and likely hit your shot because of the insane magnetism the gun has. I laugh at the fact there's a Snipers & Shotty Snipers playlist when the sniper rifle itself basically functions as a Sniper & Shotgun.
  • Spartan Charge in its current state encourages people to sprint at you, wait until their reticle turns red, charge and then finish you off with a few shots to the head from their automatic weapon. They have zero chance of missing because of how absurd the magnetism is that can literally BEND. AROUND. CORNERS.
You know what game did automatic balance well? Halo 4 after the Turbo update released in June 2013. The small damage buff the AR, Storm Rifle and Suppressor received in that game made them usable even against precision weapons like the Battle Rifle, DMR and Carbine.

You know what game had a balanced sniper? Halo 3 and Halo: Reach. If you wanted an easier to use sniper, Halo 2 Anniversary's aim assist and bullet magnetism should have been the goal.

I approve this message.

 

Spartan charge just needs to die period. This should never happen. put 3 shots into a guy and try to beat down but only their spartan charge registers and they kill me with some spammed AR shots.

 

Hell i hate when i do that to other players because even though i won, i know its BS and they're pissed. Anybody who defends that mechanic in its current form is an idiot or plays with people so bad that they miss most of the time.

 

Everybody should be arguing for the total removal or at least a complete overhaul of the mechanic

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I approve this message.

 

Spartan charge just needs to die period. This should never happen. put 3 shots into a guy and try to beat down but only their spartan charge registers and they kill me with some spammed AR shots.

 

Hell i hate when i do that to other players because even though i won, i know its BS and they're pissed. Anybody who defends that mechanic in its current form is an idiot or plays with people so bad that they miss most of the time.

 

Everybody should be arguing for the total removal or at least a complete overhaul of the mechanic

Honestly less magnetism would do it wonders. At that point it just becomes risk vs. reward and would actually allow the thruster pack to dodge it. I dunno about everyone else but when I saw all these abilities being announced and stuff I fully expected thruster pack to be a tool that allowed you to escape from them if skilled enough. 

 

Someone's about to spartan charge you? Thrust to the left or right and you'll dodge it. 

Someone's about to ground pound you? Thrust away from them and you'll avoid it.

 

Instead we just have the thruster pack do virtually nothing because the game just lets the players lunge even further to get to you - same with regular melee.

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Changing things which people were asking not to be changed is how we got shit like Infinity Slayer.

 

I don't think that the sandbox is perfect but I think 343 is doing the right thing by not changing things. They're listening to the majority of their playerbase which is what devs should do. Nerfing things like autos would piss off a very large amount of the community.

 

I actually agree with a lot of the complaints on here, but there are better ways of balancing the competitive side of H5. Changing the base weapon values affects the entire game and for a lot of people would be a negative change.

So you think we should leave the sandbox in a poor state?

 

You don't think the sandbox is perfect (and many others don't either, not even close) but we should leave it the same because the majority lack the knowledge to see why it sucks?

I think you are both right.

 

But, i honestly don't understand why either the majority or the hardcore need to have their values compromised.

 

A large portion of the remaining player base likes the sandbox as it is.

A relatively small but dedicated and important portion of the player base wants to see the game maximize is competitive merit.

 

343 had all the peices in place to placate both groups.

 

First they NEVER should have tried to use Team Arena to house both groups. They should have had a Team HCS and Ranked Team Skirmish at launch.

 

Secondly, they could have used to req system to insulated the wider audience from esports focused sandbox changes. For example, the current AR and Sniper should actually be upgrades to weapons that are much harder to use. The harder to use versions would be what appear in the HCS playlist other plsylists could keep what they have. This way 343 could tweak weapons in the HCS playlist without pissing off everyone who enjoys the sandbox as it is.

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I think you are both right.

 

But, i honestly don't understand why either the majority or the hardcore need to have their values compromised.

 

A large portion of the remaining player base likes the sandbox as it is.

A relatively small but dedicated and important portion of the player base wants to see the game maximize is competitive merit.

 

343 had all the peices in place to placate both groups.

 

First they NEVER should have tried to use Team Arena to house both groups. They should have had a Team HCS and Ranked Team Skirmish at launch.

 

Secondly, they could have used to req system to insulated the wider audience from esports focused sandbox changes. For example, the current AR and Sniper should actually be upgrades to weapons that are much harder to use. The harder to use versions would be what appear in the HCS playlist other plsylists could keep what they have. This way 343 could tweak weapons in the HCS playlist without pissing off everyone who enjoys the sandbox as it is.

I am by no means for universal settings. I think changes like radar and removal of some abilities can exist between HCS and Social, but completely different weapon balance draws too strict a distinction. As someone who enjoys competitive and casual play, I don't want to be playing two completely separate games. The magnum should have the same shots to kill. The sniper should have the same magnetism.

 

It's easy enough for players switching playlists to see, "oh this list doesn't have radar or Spartan charge." It's much different to tweek the dials on weapons. Too jarring an experience.

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I am by no means for universal settings. I think changes like radar and removal of some abilities can exist between HCS and Social, but completely different weapon balance draws too strict a distinction. As someone who enjoys competitive and casual play, I don't want to be playing two completely separate games. The magnum should have the same shots to kill. The sniper should have the same magnetism.

 

It's easy enough for players switching playlists to see, "oh this list doesn't have radar or Spartan charge." It's much different to tweek the dials on weapons. Too jarring an experience.

I dont think they should have dials on weapons. I think they should literally use different weapons.

 

Players in h5 are already conditioned for this. There are like 12 different ARs in the game and 4 different snipers. All have differing levels of aim assists and magnetism. It wouldn't be jarring at all if the hcs playlist simply used more difficult variants.

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If you guys didn't know, the new classic armors in Halo 5 they added last don't have the thruster jets on them so they don't make any noise when you hover and shit. You're silent pretty much the whole time you traverse the map. As far as I'm concerned this game isn't equal starts anymore lol

Do you mean the armors coming in 2017?

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<p>

Spartan charges magnetism is far too high - beta was almost perfect

 

Personally I'd be happier if theyes just got rid of it in general, but I'll settle for a nerf. Magnetism is crazy, but I think the big thing that bugs me is how awkward it is to counter. Either the knock back that it gives it's victim needs to be gotten rid of, or the recovery animation needs to be made signifantly longer. That way you just can't charge at someone, sprinting across the map like an idiot and get rewarded with a free kill.

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I dont think they should have dials on weapons. I think they should literally use different weapons.

 

Players in h5 are already conditioned for this. There are like 12 different ARs in the game and 4 different snipers. All have differing levels of aim assists and magnetism. It wouldn't be jarring at all if the hcs playlist simply used more difficult variants.

Thats simply not as true as you'd like it to be. Warzone players are accustomed to different weapons, not all halo players. There are plenty that don't touch warzone.

 

Now I can at least see your point if we are discussing weapons on the map exclusively, but we seem to be discussing loadout weapons too.

 

The game should be balanced for competitive play across the board. The magnum should not be different between playlists. The sniper in social skirmish should behave the same as that in HCS.

 

If casuals want AR with magnum and radar on, while competitives want no ARs and no radar, so bit it. I don't think weapons should behave differently. And yes I understand you are saying the sniper would have some other name in social with like a shark painted on the side, but that I think separates the lists too distinctly.

 

I think we are at a agree to disagree point in this discussion.

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Personally I'd be happier if theyes just got rid of it in general, but I'll settle for a nerf. Magnetism is crazy, but I think the big thing that bugs me is how awkward it is to counter. Either the knock back that it gives it's victim needs to be gotten rid of, or the recovery animation needs to be made signifantly longer. That way you just can't charge at someone, sprinting across the map like an idiot and get rewarded with a free kill.

 

This. The knockback is what sets the ability apart and makes it unique. Otherwise it's just a melee from a sprint. The problems are the magnetism/ease of use, and how quickly you can chain it into an AR cleanup.  Also, it should be possible to melee someone that is spartan charging you.

 

In it's current form, spartan charge rewards recklessness and lack of awareness. In a situation where you should be punished for sprinting into a room, you know, that "oh shit" moment, now you can just hit melee and actually have the upper hand. And in most situations it's not even dodgeable either. It's so frustrating to lose a fight to someone that is playing the game so poorly, but this crutch exists that rewards them for their poor play. It encourages them to continue playing that way. The whole situation is incredibly frustrating.

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Thats simply not as true as you'd like it to be. Warzone players are accustomed to different weapons, not all halo players. There are plenty that don't touch warzone.

 

Now I can at least see your point if we are discussing weapons on the map exclusively, but we seem to be discussing loadout weapons too.

 

The game should be balanced for competitive play across the board. The magnum should not be different between playlists. The sniper in social skirmish should behave the same as that in HCS.

 

If casuals want AR with magnum and radar on, while competitives want no ARs and no radar, so bit it. I don't think weapons should behave differently. And yes I understand you are saying the sniper would have some other name in social with like a shark painted on the side, but that I think separates the lists too distinctly.

 

I think we are at a agree to disagree point in this discussion.

Yeah agree to disagree.

 

So many playlists already have different loadout weapons as well. 3 different types of swats. Btb has BRs, Breakout, Fiesta,Grifball etc. The population is generally smart enough to understand that HCS playlist should be harder than the standard, and they aren't so moronic that they couldn't wrap their heads around marginally different starting weapons.

 

Why should the entire game be balanced for competitive play, when only a tiny fraction of the player base cares about competitive play?

 

Each playlist should be balanced around the expectations of the players who use it.

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Because outside of here most people playing the game like how the sandbox is balanced.

 

I regularly see comments saying that H5 has the most balanced sandbox in the series on Reddit and NeoGAF etc. 

So you think those communities have any idea what good balance is? I sure don't.

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I think you are both right.

 

But, i honestly don't understand why either the majority or the hardcore need to have their values compromised.

 

A large portion of the remaining player base likes the sandbox as it is.

A relatively small but dedicated and important portion of the player base wants to see the game maximize is competitive merit.

 

343 had all the peices in place to placate both groups.

Where did you get the idea that they need to please "both groups"? There's no such thing as catering to different parts of the community, it's literally just about objectively balancing weapons properly.

 

regardless if trash players like Bobby Wallace like things the way they are, the AR, SMG, Storm Rifle, etc are objectively overpowered relative to their skill requirement. No 'if's' 'and's' or 'but's'. Previous game like CE and Reach were reasonably well balanced, and yet NO casuals complained about the power levels of the AR back then. Literally the only reason people think the balance is fine at all is because they're too dense to compare it to Halo's history. They don't give two shits about skill ceilings or competitive merit either, which is apparent with how little they care about HCS.

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Yeah agree to disagree.

 

So many playlists already have different loadout weapons as well. 3 different types of swats. Btb has BRs, Breakout, Fiesta,Grifball etc. The population is generally smart enough to understand that HCS playlist should be harder than the standard, and they aren't so moronic that they couldn't wrap their heads around marginally different starting weapons.

 

Why should the entire game be balanced for competitive play, when only a tiny fraction of the player base cares about competitive play?

 

Each playlist should be balanced around the expectations of the players who use it.

It's got nothing to do with being moronic, It's about consistency across playlists. SWAT having three different rifle starts is stupid, it should only be magnums. Grifball dropped off massively as soon as they split classic from evolved in Reach. I'm sure @@Infinity can elaborate, but what you're mentioning is literally the opposite of what you want to do when consolidating gametypes and playlists.

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Yeah agree to disagree.

 

So many playlists already have different loadout weapons as well. 3 different types of swats. Btb has BRs, Breakout, Fiesta,Grifball etc. The population is generally smart enough to understand that HCS playlist should be harder than the standard, and they aren't so moronic that they couldn't wrap their heads around marginally different starting weapons.

 

Why should the entire game be balanced for competitive play, when only a tiny fraction of the player base cares about competitive play?

 

Each playlist should be balanced around the expectations of the players who use it.

Still agreeing to disagree, just answering your question.

 

Because there is balanced and then there is unbalanced. The game should have a foundation of balance in all interations. The social list that is halo, should function the same as competitive because that how we define the experience. THIS IS HALO. That's what lists that are on the top should say, whether it's Team Arena or Social Skirmish.

 

IMO, there is no negative to this philosophy. The community is less devided, and I believe the only people who don't want change aren't adverse to competitive balance, they are simply afraid of change. That's no a good enough reason to cater to them in my eyes.

 

You can enjoy a competitive game at a casual level. The same is less true in reverse.

 

Reach is a good example. There is Reach, TU, MLG, and anniversary. All different. When the title update happened it should have been universal, with the exception of maybe anniversary since it was designed as a CE-like.

 

Casuals wouldn't have quit the game if everything was TU. Heck look at the lists. Alot of the casual lists are under the TU headline. It makes no sense to overly devide the setting. Ranked and Social fine. But there is no need for them to play so significantly differently.

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Because good game balance benefits you at any level of play whether or not you're too stupid to realize it?

What 'benefits' the game is when players get to play what they enjoy and how they enjoy it. It has nothing to do with competitive balance or intelligence.

 

Halo in particular saw growth as vanilla settings and balance grew less competitively sound. the competitive community took those games and added their own settings and thrived as well.

 

The biggest new console fps of the generation has no competitive viability to speak of.

 

Above all else, a game needs to be balanced around whatever experience its playerbase expects. That's what brings popularity. That's what brings longevity. Should a niche exist within that community that has different expectations, then it can be accommodated separately. And when it IS accomodated seperately, the results tend to be better for all parties.

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Do you mean the armors coming in 2017?

I'm assuming those as well but the last sets they've added have no jet trails. It'll save your life every now and then if you're sprinting up behind someone or need to stabilize

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One big problem when listening to the "majority" of Halo players is that they don't know anything about balance. As long as they can get easy kills with their AR they think the game is perfectly balanced. Not to mention they are afraid of change. 

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You know what game did automatic balance well? Halo 4 after the Turbo update released in June 2013. The small damage buff the AR, Storm Rifle and Suppressor received in that game made them usable even against precision weapons like the Battle Rifle, DMR and Carbine. 

I've been saying this launch.

 

Removing the headshot and ADS bonus would balance the AR. No more inconsistent 12-15-shot bullshit and AR sniping.

 

Do the same for the SMG and bump up the respawn times. On the bright side, the Storm Rifle is finally balanced after a fucking year.

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