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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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"Hey guys, know how fall damage added a whole facet to level verticallity meta? What if we removed that?!"

CE is my favourite Multiplayer, but I think that fall height punished map movement in ways that I don't think were great. Fall height damage is one mechanic from CE that I am glad was removed going forward, until it came back.

 

Fall height as far as I'm concerned punishes vertical movement on vertical maps, while removing the fall damage gives more incentive to drop from higher positions, and hence promoting movement. And I personally believe that vertical movement promotion is worth dropping the crouch for less fall damage trick.

 

The removal of fall damage didn't produce a negative effect on Halo.

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CE is my favourite Multiplayer, but I think that fall height punished map movement in ways that I don't think were great. Fall height damage is one mechanic from CE that I am glad was removed going forward, until it came back.

 

Fall height as far as I'm concerned punishes vertical movement on vertical maps, while removing the fall damage gives more incentive to drop from higher positions, and hence promoting movement. And I personally believe that vertical movement promotion is worth dropping the crouch for less fall damage trick.

 

The removal of fall damage didn't produce a negative effect on Halo.

 

The negatable nature of fall damage in CE is a skilled element, though. I think it's a good thing. 

 

If anything, I think removing the fall delay when you land is what needs to be changed. 

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The negatable nature of fall damage in CE is a skilled element, though. I think it's a good thing.

 

If anything, I think removing the fall delay when you land is what needs to be changed.

I'd be open to heavy full stun unless you crouched out of it

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CE is my favourite Multiplayer, but I think that fall height punished map movement in ways that I don't think were great. Fall height damage is one mechanic from CE that I am glad was removed going forward, until it came back.

 

Fall height as far as I'm concerned punishes vertical movement on vertical maps, while removing the fall damage gives more incentive to drop from higher positions, and hence promoting movement. And I personally believe that vertical movement promotion is worth dropping the crouch for less fall damage trick.

 

The removal of fall damage didn't produce a negative effect on Halo.

 

Disagree.

 

The fall damage in Halo didn't really hamper the movement at all. Besides some crazy shit like jumping from the top of HeH right to the bottom floor, in what way did Halo 1 limit your vertical movement? Instead of jumping from the top of Prisoner to the bottom you'd just make sure to hit a platform on the way down and then crouch when you landed and that fall damage was completely negated. There was very few places in Halo multiplayer maps that would outright kill you for falling and the ones that exist had easy ways to avoid the fall damage without adding too much time to your movement.

 

Even games like UT and Quake that have FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more verticality than Halo have fall damage.

 

We're talking about games where some of the maps are literally just a series of jump pads in space where you take fall damage moving almost anywhere.

 

At the very least they could have kept the impact when landing to slow you down or even just put a tiny amount of fall damage like Quake where you can drop like 20 metres and only take a few hit points in damage.

 

This way you're rewarded for your positioning/movement, but you still have the option to take a risk falling with a small penalty.

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The negatable nature of fall damage in CE is a skilled element, though. I think it's a good thing.

 

If anything, I think removing the fall delay when you land is what needs to be changed.

I am all for skillfull elements

 

But sometimes you have to take a step back and think, is this skillful element benefitting my overall gameplay outside being skillful?

 

It's important while making skillful elements that add depth to a game not to lose sight of the gameplay as a whole. If a certain elements is adding nothing but skill and "hurting" movement like fall damage can, maybe it is best it is removed to improve map flow and overall movement promotion.

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Disagree.

 

The fall damage in Halo didn't really hamper the movement at all. Besides some crazy shit like jumping from the top of HeH right to the bottom floor, in what way did Halo 1 limit your vertical movement? Instead of jumping from the top of Prisoner to the bottom you'd just make sure to hit a platform on the way down and then crouch when you landed and that fall damage was completely negated. There was very few places in Halo multiplayer maps that would outright kill you for falling and the ones that exist had easy ways to avoid the fall damage without adding too much time to your movement.

 

Even games like UT and Quake that have FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR more verticality than Halo have fall damage.

 

We're talking about games where some of the maps are literally just a series of jump pads in space where you take fall damage moving almost anywhere.

 

At the very least they could have kept the impact when landing to slow you down or even just put a tiny amount of fall damage like Quake where you can drop like 20 metres and only take a few hit points in damage.

 

This way you're rewarded for your positioning/movement, but you still have the option to take a risk falling with a small penalty.

They don't directly restrict movement, but they do hold an inherent punishment for your movement, however small in Quake/UT and more so in Halo CE.

 

As I said, you have to step back and ask if that punishment is adding anything beyond a providing a chance to "shoehorn" a skillful way to avoid it. Is putting fall damage/stun in the game JUST to provide a skill in being able to negate it adding anything more that that arguably forced skill? Is punishing the player with a stun for choosing to drop any better than punishing a players accuracy with bloom for choosing to get the fastest TTK?

 

I deliberately propose this hyperbole, is fall damage/stun not just the equivalent of bloom for vertical movement? Can I not choose to slow my RoF to retain my accuracy, is that not still somewhat skilful?

 

I should add, no, bloom is random aids and can die in a fire, and fall damage is nowhere near on the same level as it, but using your logic in the defense of fall height, I could defend bloom, because it is within my control to negate its effect.

 

But just like with bloom, that doesnt make it good

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This guys gets it.

 

Party chat needs to fuck off and die in a fire.

 

In a team game everyone should be communicating AS A TEAM. The idea of a team of players split into multiple parties is just downright stupid and the voice communication issues in Halo 5 is negatively impacting the community more than anyone even realises.

 

For real though. I don't know why it doesn't catch more flack. It's not even unprecedented either. I'm pretty sure CoD games in the past used to force people out of party chat when they played certain playlists.  I don't think it's asking too much to play in game chat in ranked playlists.  I guess you could make an exception if your fireteam size is equal to the team size, if your squad prefers the sound of party chat (it is cleaner).

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They don't directly restrict movement, but they do hold an inherent punishment for your movement, however small in Quake/UT and more so in Halo CE.

 

As I said, you have to step back and ask if that punishment is adding anything beyond a providing a chance to "shoehorn" a skillful way to avoid it. Is putting fall damage/stun in the game JUST to provide a skill in being able to negate it adding anything more that that arguably forced skill? Is punishing the player with a stun for choosing to drop any better than punishing a players accuracy with bloom for choosing to get the fastest TTK?

 

I deliberately propose this hyperbole, is fall damage/stun not just the equivalent of bloom for vertical movement? Can I not choose to slow my RoF to retain my accuracy, is that not still somewhat skilful?

 

I should add, no, bloom is random aids and can die in a fire, and fall damage is nowhere near on the same level as it, but using your logic in the defense of fall height, I could defend bloom, because it is within my control to negate its effect.

 

But just like with bloom, that doesnt make it good

 

Honestly, your argument just isn't good.

 

Using your argument I could say aren't walls and other obstacles just a way to shoehorn movement into the game and force players to work around them...

 

Why not just give all players jet packs, remove the walls from the map entirely and just turn every game into BR's only on Octagon?

 

Or what about the splash damage from rocket launchers? Isn't that just a way to punish players for being too aggressive with the rocket launcher? Should we make it so players are invincible to rockets they shoot because we're forcing them to hold back on shooting a player instantly when they're too close?

 

The purpose of a map in a game is to give the players something else to fight against besides their opponent.

 

In Starcraft this means expanding quickly to take more resources and blocking off your ramp to prevent a Zerg Rush.

 

In Halo this means putting yourself into a position where you can control the next weapon or power up spawning as well as being in a good position during a fire fight.

 

Fall damage is a way of restricting movement, in the same way you can't just walk through walls. The problem with your bloom argument is that bloom is RANDOM. Fall damage isn't random. A skilful player can negate fall damage by crouching at the right time, positioning themselves better and through better map knowledge.

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For real though. I don't know why it doesn't catch more flack.

 

Because people don't really think through the consequences. I made a video tackling this issue and it's got barely any views (meanwhile some moron makes a click bait video that goes on for 30 minutes rambling about Halo and it gets like 50,000... Yes I'm salty)

 

No voice chat is killing this game. No one parties together any more. People don't make online friends any more. There's no encouragement to play the game any more. Win or lose? Who cares, you got your RP right? Now you can buy a new REQ pack.

 

The inability to communicate with team mates makes it 10X's easier for a team of 4 to stomp on solo queue players.

 

COMMUNITY is what helps a game longevity.

 

Since I bought my Xbox One I've probably added like a dozen people to my friends list. I used to add a dozen people to my friends list in a week. I used to be pissed off with the 100 friends limit and I was constantly having to go through and delete people to make room to add the recent players because we had a good time playing together. Now there's no limit but I don't even care any more. No one is talking through games so why the hell would I ever bother adding anyone?

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Honestly, your argument just isn't good.

 

Using your argument I could say aren't walls and other obstacles just a way to shoehorn movement into the game and force players to work around them...

 

Why not just give all players jet packs, remove the walls from the map entirely and just turn every game into BR's only on Octagon.

 

Or what about the splash damage from rocket launchers? Isn't that just a way to punish players for being too aggressive with the rocket launcher? Should we make it so players are invincible to rockets they shoot because we're forcing them to hold back on shooting a player instantly when they're too close?

 

The purpose of a map in a game is to give the players something else to fight against besides their opponent.

 

In Starcraft this means expanding quickly to take more resources and blocking off your ramp to prevent a Zerg Rush.

 

In Halo this means putting yourself into a position where you can control the next weapon or power up spawning as well as being in a good position during a fire fight.

 

Fall damage is a way of restricting movement, in the same way you can't just walk through walls. The problem with your bloom argument is that bloom is RANDOM. Fall damage isn't random. A skilful player can negate fall damage by crouching at the right time, positioning themselves better and through better map knowledge.

My comparison was reasonable comparison, both Bloom and Fall Damage/Stun are arbitrary player punishments in relation to a common part of FPS, one forces you to slow your RoF or face accuracy penalty, the other forces you time a crouch properly or be slowed and/or take damage (which I suppose makes it not really a hyperbole) your comparison compares map geometry to a player mechanic, they have a different context in their own right.

 

Bloom punishes you with random inaccuracy, but it is entirely negatable with paced shots. The inaccuracy is the equivelent of taking fall damage/stun in this comparison, it is the punishment imparted on the player that they can use askill to negate. How is pacing your shots to avoid this inaccuracy, which is entirely in the player control, any different from crouching at the right time to avoid player damage/stun, in relation to shooting ability and vertical movement ability by the player? They both require correct timing to negate it.

 

It is not comparable to map geometry, because not only is that not a player ability, but map geometry is essential to providing diverse, different and unique gameplay experiances with in a single game, restricting the player on set paths creates the flow of the map, while fall damage/stun will hurt or slow ie punish you for moving around the map in the intended way.

 

Rockets splash damage restrict the player from being from aggressive, doing so anyway punishes you with a death, this was a much better comparison. So, applying my what else does this add question to rockets, it adds a balancing mechanic to a comparatively easy to use insta kill weapon, it forces the weapon to have a specifc role and have the player use it in a specific way.

 

Which returns me to my original question. What is that fall damage/stun adding outside providing the arbitrary ability to avoid it, while actively punishing something as basic to FPS as movement? Restricting and Punishing are not the same thing. Restrictions are the basic rules of the game you are playing, the map geometry you are moving around on, or the limitations that define the of role the weapon you hold. They create the core variety and rules of how you will play the game. having fall penalties that are unavoidable is a restriction, a rule. It defines how the player can move across a map. If the player is capable of pressing a button to negate that rule, then that player IS intended to make those routes, they ARE expected to say, drop from top Prisoner to Camo, they are supposed to be allowed to do that. So why add an arbritray barrier to being able to do that? You are then potentially punishing the player making a movement they are intended to make, unless they press a button to avoid that damage, what is that adding beyond the arbritary skill gap for a movement the player is supposed to make? Surely the trade off of map control is enough?

 

And with all that in mind, outside one being a punishment of random inaccuracy, and one being a punishment of health damage/stun, both punishing you for following the basic rules of Halo such as shooting and movement respectively, what makes it any less an arbritary and unnessary skill to press a button to survive/avoid stun from a drop you are intended to make anyway, than than pacing your shots to avoid the arbitrary accuracy penalty for shooting, something you are expected to do?

 

What makes a fall penalty and the ability to avoid it a worthwhile skill addition to the gameplay of Halo if they revolve around drops you are intended to be able to survive anyway as a result of being able to avoid the penalty? At that point, no penalty is probably adding more to overall gameplay than the arbritray ability to avoid the penalty, at that point, there is little reason for that skill to exist.

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Because people don't really think through the consequences. I made a video tackling this issue and it's got barely any views (meanwhile some moron makes a click bait video that goes on for 30 minutes rambling about Halo and it gets like 50,000... Yes I'm salty)

 

No voice chat is killing this game. No one parties together any more. People don't make online friends any more. There's no encouragement to play the game any more. Win or lose? Who cares, you got your RP right? Now you can buy a new REQ pack.

 

The inability to communicate with team mates makes it 10X's easier for a team of 4 to stomp on solo queue players.

 

COMMUNITY is what helps a game longevity.

 

Since I bought my Xbox One I've probably added like a dozen people to my friends list. I used to add a dozen people to my friends list in a week. I used to be pissed off with the 100 friends limit and I was constantly having to go through and delete people to make room to add the recent players because we had a good time playing together. Now there's no limit but I don't even care any more. No one is talking through games so why the hell would I ever bother adding anyone?

 

If you're Australian you'd be able to fit the Onyx ANZ population onto a friends list with a 100 limit.

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How to win rig slayer:

 

Step 1: spawn as red team

Gametype needs a 1 minute delay on the first camo and it'd play so much better.

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CE is my favourite Multiplayer, but I think that fall height punished map movement in ways that I don't think were great. Fall height damage is one mechanic from CE that I am glad was removed going forward, until it came back.

 

Fall height as far as I'm concerned punishes vertical movement on vertical maps, while removing the fall damage gives more incentive to drop from higher positions, and hence promoting movement. And I personally believe that vertical movement promotion is worth dropping the crouch for less fall damage trick.

 

The removal of fall damage didn't produce a negative effect on Halo.

 

I would personally make it so you couldn't die from any height, but if you missed the crouch cancel from a pretty good height you would lose your shields and maybe a little bit of health. (maybe make it so the crouch cancel causes you to lose no health at all, idk)

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-snip-

 

You're failing to take into account that lots of little things the player can do separate the average players from the best players.

 

Unlike other Halo games, in Halo 1 a good player can carry a team by themselves and take on multiple people at once. This isn't really possible in ANY OTHER HALO GAME unless they get incredibly lucky.

 

Small things add up.

 

Sure, you say, "oh, it's just a button press to prevent fall damage so who cares?"

 

Well timing the OS is just a timer, so why not just tell everyone when it's coming back up?

 

You can achieve a double melee quite easily, why not just buff the power of the melee and skip the whole grenade throw bit?

 

You can do more melee damage by running or jumping. All you have to do is hit the jump button, why not just make all melees do the same damage regardless of momentum?

 

The thing is, it all adds up. Regardless of how little skill you believe it takes, the fact is, it DOES take skill.

 

You'll see bad players fall to their death all the time. You'll see pro players take shortcuts other players don't know exists.

 

Your original argument is that it restricts player movement, but it really doesn't. It just requires the player to know where to fall and where to land in order to prevent fall damage. Hell, you can even jump from the top of damnation to the bottom if you land on the overshield. The OS is positioned in an area that's hard to get to. It would be too easy to get there if you could just go through teleporter and fall down to any of the 3 platforms.

 

I mean, for fucks sake, in modern Halo games you can poke your head out, get shot with a sniper, take cover and do it again an infinite amount of times due to a lack of proper health system. At this point I'll take all the punishment for poor choices that we can possibly get.

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If you're Australian you'd be able to fit the Onyx ANZ population onto a friends list with a 100 limit.

 

Well yeah... Since all the population left the game due to strict match making that wouldn't allow us to find games... We used to have a huge Halo scene here.

 

Also, why would skill be a factor into who makes it on my friends list? Sometimes I just want to fuck around in BTB and it's nice to have people to chat to while I do that. I couldn't care less if they're ranked diamond or bronze.

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You're failing to take into account that lots of little things the player can do separate the average players from the best players.

 

Unlike other Halo games, in Halo 1 a good player can carry a team by themselves and take on multiple people at once. This isn't really possible in ANY OTHER HALO GAME unless they get incredibly lucky.

 

Small things add up.

 

Sure, you say, "oh, it's just a button press to prevent fall damage so who cares?"

 

Well timing the OS is just a timer, so why not just tell everyone when it's coming back up?

 

You can achieve a double melee quite easily, why not just buff the power of the melee and skip the whole grenade throw bit?

 

You can do more melee damage by running or jumping. All you have to do is hit the jump button, why not just make all melees do the same damage regardless of momentum?

 

The thing is, it all adds up. Regardless of how little skill you believe it takes, the fact is, it DOES take skill.

 

You'll see bad players fall to their death all the time. You'll see pro players take shortcuts other players don't know exists.

 

Your original argument is that it restricts player movement, but it really doesn't. It just requires the player to know where to fall and where to land in order to prevent fall damage. Hell, you can even jump from the top of damnation to the bottom if you land on the overshield. The OS is positioned in an area that's hard to get to. It would be too easy to get there if you could just go through teleporter and fall down to any of the 3 platforms.

 

I mean, for fucks sake, in modern Halo games you can poke your head out, get shot with a sniper, take cover and do it again an infinite amount of times due to a lack of proper health system. At this point I'll take all the punishment for poor choices that we can possibly get.

Like I said, you need to step back and think about if that skill adding to the gameplay outside of being "skillful". I would even argue that timing an OS using a external timer isn't even a skill. It's knowledge, skill comes from how you use the knowledge. Knowing about the jumps in CE is the knowledge, executing them is the skill.

 

Just a small detour, but what should be basic knowledge given to the player? I would say that having a weapon timer in game is a good thing, high level players in CE often use a timer while playing, having it in the game doesn't hurt.

 

No, a bunch of fucking waypoints cluttering and moving all over your screen, Spartans yelling "ROCKETS ARE READY" and giving away your position is a problem, Halo 4/5 waypoints are awful. Let's say that every major pick up had an small icon on the HuD and while it has spawned in, or is currently in play, it was blue, when out of play and respawning, it is greyed out, refilling with blue as it gets closer to respawning, similar to how how long is left on your power up is displayed now.

 

Subtle, simple and basically just putting the weapon timing all high level players use into the game for everyone. The player still needs to learn where the weapons spawns to begin with. That is giving all players the knowledge of weapon timers so they can skilfully control them. That to isn't removing the punishment for bad a decision, that is just telling players something they should know, and putting an external timer that many of the high level players are going to use anyway into the game itself.

 

Going back to fall height, You are avoiding my questions and only returning your own questions and hyperboles that aren't relevant. I know the jumps that are possible in CE, I use them when I play CE on MCC. the original argument was not that it restricted movement, it was that punished vertical movement you are intended to make, and thus discouraged vertical movements that player is intended to be able to make for the sake of an arbitrary skilful way to avoid it.

 

You have not explained to me what it adds beyond said punishment for making a drop you are intended to make anyway. That isn't punishing a poor decision, that is punishing a player for moving around the map as was intended. Punishing for a poor decision would be if they did that then when one shot while they knew an enemy player was watching that sightline. Punishing for a bad decision would be dropping down at a bad time and losing map control as a result.

 

Lots of skillful elements are good, skills that can seperate players on a skill gap spectrum are good. But if it exists PURELY to add to that skill gap spectrum, and it existing is punishing the player for taking paths they are intended to make anyway, the lack of it plays smoother and overall improves the gameplay, and that giving up that height can already be a punishment in itself, then the fall penalty becomes an unneccesary punishment for moving as was intended any way. It is a skilful element, but is existing purely for the sake of being a skilful element.

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 that is punishing a player for moving around the map as was intended.

 

But it WASN'T intended.

 

Bungie didn't intend for players do jump off the bridge of AOTCR, slide off a cliff, crouch when they hit the ground and skip half of the level.

 

That is something players figured out.

 

The exact same way Bungie didn't intend for players to sit up the top of sniper on Prisoner and then fall all the way to the ground and pickup camo, but again, it's not exactly hard to do it as long as you jump on a platform on the way down.

 

The maps were designed with fall damage in mind.

 

Honestly, the whole thing is purely subjective anyway. From a game design perspective there are definitely pros and cons to each.

 

Personally I liked the fact that players with better map knowledge could move around the map vertically faster than others.

 

I will also concede that some map designs wouldn't be possible with fall damage, for example, on Lockout you wouldn't be able to go from top gravity lift to elbow quickly and maps like Headlong would have needed some modifications to allow players to jump down off the high areas.

 

Personally if I had to choose I'd like a stun if falling from a great height that could be countered with a well timed crouch (except for extreme distances) and a small amount of damage to the player. Probably not enough to kill you, but enough to make you want to search for a different way down. Maybe half your shield for extreme distances at the most.

 

This way there would be a small element in skill to movement, but it wouldn't hurt map design.

 

The most competitive FPS I can think of all have fall damage - UT, Quake and CS. It doesn't hurt their gameplay at all and in the case of UT and Quake the fall damage is pretty much negligible in the grand scheme of things since players are purposely shooting themselves with rocket launchers anyway, so fall damage is really the least of their concerns.

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Gametype needs a 1 minute delay on the first camo and it'd play so much better.

I've honestly felt a lot of the maps would play so much better with a delay of initial power spawns, they tend to be too centralized, especially when you combine the mosh pit at the start with over shield's absurd pickup/non invincibility mechanic, it makes for super dumb openings.

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Well yeah... Since all the population left the game due to strict match making that wouldn't allow us to find games... We used to have a huge Halo scene here.

 

Also, why would skill be a factor into who makes it on my friends list? Sometimes I just want to fuck around in BTB and it's nice to have people to chat to while I do that. I couldn't care less if they're ranked diamond or bronze.

 

If I didn't get cut off all the time in game chat, i wouldn't need party chat.  I am all for forcing game chat in ranked playlists, but only if they make the chat work better first.  Not chatting has definitely cut down the number of people i add to my FL as well.  Most of the new people i have added are from here, not from the thousands of people i have actually played with.

 

Personally, when i'm trying to squeeze in games when i can at random times of day i dont even plug my mike it.  I only plug it in at night when i know i'll have a few hour long session ahead of me.  Does that make me a bad person??

 

and as an aside, THANK YOU For using "I couldn't care less" properly.  Whenever I see someone say "I COULD care less" it takes all my energy to not be a grammar nazi about it.

 

To add to this fall damage debate that has been raging for too long in here....   Its really very simple.  Fall Damage IS a skill element as long as there are ways to mitigate it that the player needs to learn. Any additional item that you need to learn to get good at, adds skill.  Its very simple.  However....  It is also REALLY fucking annoying.  I hate fall damage.  it just bugs me.  I am all for having a healthy skill gap, but there are some things where the skill/annoyance ratio is too high and for me thats fall damage.

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There's the qualifier. If it's poorly balanced, at least half of the players won't have fun.  

 

 

This is one of the best posts I've seen. Perfect summary of the Warzone situation. It's the same as Monopoly, people are so eager to play and get a hotel on Mayfair, but then as soon as their opponent does it they spit chips and throw a tantrum. What frustrates me to no end about these people is that they are the "lol u fukn suk get rekt" crowd because they aren't just playing "for fun" they're playing for vengance for when they got shit on in the last game, and as you stated they're not intelligent enough to understand that it's the game that's causing this horrific rift in not only balance, but player positivity.

 

I got invited to some "Warzone 12's" and they team I was playing with were extremely toxic winning (lol get raped ****** hahahah when he's in a banshee ultra 2 minutes in against a 3-base capped enemy) and losing (fucking horseshit fucking ****** cheating fuck).

 

The game promotes this kind of mentality, and there is no chance I will ever touch warzone again.

 

Halo 5 is on the 2nd page of "most played" on xbl. 21st. Used to be THE FRANCHISE...

 

Remember when Halo 3 was always number one until a CoD came out and then that'd be number one for a few weeks then it'd be back to Halo 3.

 

Even though Halo 3 isn't my favourite Halo and the latency issues were atrocious, I still had a damn good time playing it.

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