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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Haven't heard about this in awhile.

 

Someone asks Frankie every few months and he always say its still in the works.

 

Means a lot more coming from Phil, though.

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Haven't heard about this in awhile.

 

They discussed it during one of the Halo War panels in the last month or two. Part of the fan Q&A.

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Thrust bumping in the new term for using different routes to flank and engage an enemy. While it may increase the speed at which a team can collapse on someone, it also can lead to a decrease in need said map awareness you were mentioning before because a player can either get help, or get to a spot where they need to be in order to help their teammate in a fashion that was not originally intended. This also adds to randomness which makes isolating an opponent that much more difficult because even if Jimmy No Thumbs has no idea whats happening when he thrust bumps somewhere, he ultimately changes a battle he would've never influenced before in a game that took skill full movement, and turned a large portion of it into pressing 'x' as you hit a piece of geometry.

 

No it's not? Thrust bumping is a tech associated with Thruster. That's it. You can technically flank with it, get to a location faster than the enemy was expecting, surprise an enemy, etc. But in doing so, you normally have to commit to stabilizing on the way up or near the second arc of the bump or clambering (which is a punishable animation). Even without radar, if you're at a position someone is trying to thrust bump to, you'll normally hear the jet engine and subsequent clacking of clamber going off near you so you can react. This is also considering that hitting perfect thrust bumps (the only situation possible where someone won't be at a frame disadvantage when contesting someone above them with a thrust bump) requires even more minute timing that no one, not even thumbless Master Bumper MLG Timmy could pull off consistently.

 

Here we go with the adds to randomness thing again... There is nothing random about someone using their thrust to get to a position faster. Players do this all of the time and if you're used to the cadence of H5 you can expect it and predict it just by pressing select and looking at how many are dead on the enemy team and whether they need to commit to a play to stop a flag, etc.

 

Come off it btw, this whole argument that H5 movement is not skillful is flat out wrong. I guess the qualifier for skill is not pressing a button, it's holding a button. Ah stupid me, of course. You yourself even stated that you can hit a thrust bump somewhat consistently without practice. Okay, so what are we talking about, 20-30% consistent? So that means that if you tell your team you are going to snag camo off of the start of Fathom with a thrust bump, you will fail 70% of the time. Well shit, I guess as a teammate I should just do the sub jump then since you are more often than not going to FAIL at "running into geometry and pressing x." Hell, even a 50% chance of hitting a jump is still shit when it can cost your team an advantage or good position.

 

@@cookies4you explained what skill actually is. It's knowing how and when to use a facet of the game in a proper situation with proper timing. 

 

P.S. - I legitimately feel bad for people named Tim/Jim or Timmy/Jimmy that read these posts. Guys just want to play Halo without being called out for their terrible finger dexterity. 

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Thrust bumping is cool but looking at the bigger picture all these movement mechanics essentially amount to the affect Jetpacks had on the game.

 

Everyone can get practically everywhere from anywhere faster than the original map design intended.

 

It's not really a good thing.

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Umm... They are paid, and it is part of the advertising. It's a selling point to tell hardcore competitive fans that your Esports driven game has been playtested before release by the best players in the world as it gives more faith and confidence in general.

 

Little did we know the pro team had practically no influence on the design decisions except the worst one that makes the game unplayable (the aiming).

So you are saying 343i/MS paid pros off to do nothing? Why wouldn't/couldn't they just pay them to actually playtest the game? 

 

To me this is just a general perception issue. No one gives a damn about how many (or how game breaking) glitches there are before that are fixed, the only ones that people see are the glitches/bugs that end up at launch. 

 

One could just as easily make the argument that hiring pros isn't a good idea, mainly because conflicts of interest and lack of experience (especially apparent if you look outside of arena). 

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Considering you can thrust bump off a multitude of objects in this game. It does in fact add randomness because it means there is no pattern. Flanking with thruster in noisy, and much easier to notice than flanking in any other Halo game. I don't see why thrust bump is MLG Skillful when, unless everyone that really practices these jumps can make the top mid fathom jump every. Single. Time. Then they do add randomness to the game. Reason being, now instead of someone being top mid, you have another person bottom mid, this one however missing their thruster and put in a worse situation because they wanted to be flashy and pull of a thrust bump. In the grand scheme of the game it may not matter, but there is a reason I don't see the top 8 teams in the world attempt the fathom jump at the start of the game. I'll leave that for you to really think about.

 

I already explained how thrust bumping does require some awareness, but at the same time I also spoke as to how it does not. Before you try to throw the 'A team calling out would punish you for bump thrusting in 'x' situation" I'd like to point out on just how many there are. Lets look at Regret.

1. P tower

2. Outside bottom Car

3. Inside bottom Car

 

Those three are the major ones I want to cover. There are more I'm sure, but even taking into account these 3, unless your team has TOTAL control of the map, if I can get a broken line of sight around Car alone, there are a minimum of three different place I could go, not taking into account using GP to change where I am going. You can come back and say "Call outs prevent you from escaping". And you're right it would. This is again assuming you control the entire map. I could thrust bump near your entire team but ground pound to safety. The overall ability to escape is massive in this game that being isolated is NOT a major disadvantage on maps that have a lot of thrust bumps (ie regret).

 

And I have played 8's on default H5, and thrust bumping is used much more infrequently than you'd have the general thread believe. I'd even say the players I was playing against were better than me at H5. And yet, I never saw thrust bumping used more than a few times (Around 5 in 10 games maybe), and I barely see it outside of maybe two jumps, those being P1 on truth, and the Car side bottom mid on Regret off the rock.

 

The reason ghost jumps in H3 for example were never called random is because they didn't have multiple points of ending. If someone did the G1 jump, I knew exactly where they were going to be. Thrust Bumping has so many different variations that you have to account for it makes it entirely possible that a player can 'randomly' appear in one of the 4-5 different spots they could possibly be after said move.

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Thrust bumping is cool but looking at the bigger picture all these movement mechanics essentially amount to the affect Jetpacks had on the game.

 

Everyone can get practically everywhere from anywhere faster than the original map design intended.

 

It's not really a good thing.

This is why I'm a Cooper fan
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Thrust bumping is cool but looking at the bigger picture all these movement mechanics essentially amount to the affect Jetpacks had on the game.

 

Everyone can get practically everywhere from anywhere faster than the original map design intended.

 

It's not really a good thing.

 

That's a bit of a stretch to be honest. One allows you to have basically infinite LoS on a map while simultaneously breaking all vertical movement on a map, the other gives you some marginally faster and unexpected ways to get to certain locations. 

 

Also, you'd be hard pressed to find a game developer that creates a map that has the same meta from when it was tested, to launch, and then further along in the games cycle. 

 

Slide boosting was removed because it really did create problems with having people able to cross the map in 2 secs compared to 8 secs. Thrust bumping saves a second or two at most and like I've stated, is significantly more risk-reward than some people here would claim to admit.

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Thrust bumping is cool but looking at the bigger picture all these movement mechanics essentially amount to the affect Jetpacks had on the game.

 

Everyone can get practically everywhere from anywhere faster than the original map design intended.

 

It's not really a good thing.

A little exaggeration here. Anything that promotes an aggressive approach to the game is good(within the boundaries of what Halo should have).

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That's a bit of a stretch to be honest. One allows you to have basically infinite LoS on a map while simultaneously breaking all vertical movement on a map, the other gives you some marginally faster and unexpected ways to get to certain locations. 

 

Also, you'd be hard pressed to find a game developer that creates a map that has the same meta from when it was tested, to launch, and then further along in the games cycle. 

 

Slide boosting was removed because it really did create problems with having people able to cross the map in 2 secs compared to 8 secs. Thrust bumping saves a second or two at most and like I've stated, is significantly more risk-reward than some people here would claim to admit.

I didn't mean just thrust bumping. I mean all of it combined.

 

Obviously the meta will change. The question is whether or not that change is for the better.

 

Personally I think the movement meta has just become overkill at this point. People have taken the swish cheese and smashed it into a million pieces.

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I didn't mean just thrust bumping. I mean all of it combined.

 

Obviously the meta will change. The question is whether or not that change is for the better.

 

Personally I think the movement meta has just become overkill at this point. People have taken the swish cheese and smashed it into a million pieces.

I prefer american cheese.

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In the grand scheme of the game it may not matter, but there is a reason I don't see the top 8 teams in the world attempt the fathom jump at the start of the game. I'll leave that for you to really think about.

 

That's a simple reason. Thrust bumps do provide marginal benefits, but with incredibly high risk. The reason you don't see pros do it is because most pros roll with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. If their opening push on fathom can (and it has) effectively stops or contests the person doing the thrust bump for camo, then there is no reason to go for it themselves and risk failure. 

 

 

I already explained how thrust bumping does require some awareness, but at the same time I also spoke as to how it does not. Before you try to throw the 'A team calling out would punish you for bump thrusting in 'x' situation" I'd like to point out on just how many there are. Lets look at Regret.

1. P tower

2. Outside bottom Car

3. Inside bottom Car

 

Those three are the major ones I want to cover. There are more I'm sure, but even taking into account these 3, unless your team has TOTAL control of the map, if I can get a broken line of sight around Car alone, there are a minimum of three different place I could go, not taking into account using GP to change where I am going. You can come back and say "Call outs prevent you from escaping". And you're right it would. This is again assuming you control the entire map. I could thrust bump near your entire team but ground pound to safety. The overall ability to escape is massive in this game that being isolated is NOT a major disadvantage on maps that have a lot of thrust bumps (ie regret).

 

Which three places? If you're on car ramp for either side you can go:

 

1) Through SR tunnel to the other car ramp. - You're safe but you have no real way to help your team unless OS is coming up.

 

2) Thrust Bump to Car Bridge near top mid. - This is one of the more common moves to contest top mid. Needless to say, you normally are dealing with someone on Top Mid who is a) aware of the spawns and b) has two splinter nades in has back pocket since Top Mid has two. So a simple understanding of the spawn system makes your push on top near useless unless you land a perfect thrust bump up to top mid. Any form of clamber will probably get you killed and if you do manage a perfect thrust bump, you're out of thrust for the length of that engagement. Does that mean you can win that fight? Yes, but you went the route of speed and reduced safety to make a risky play, which to me is a good thing. Aggressive risky plays is part of the backbone of H5 and you largely have to be a step ahead or two of the enemy team to have that kind of awareness.

 

3) Run up to your respective Car Bubble. - This is the safest and most common option. Someone won't fly top mid from Red/Blue Car 1 if the team has control. Only if you have someone anchoring in Car bubble can that play really be effective at regaining map control.

 

FYI, using GP to change where you are headed with a thrust bump is a bit difficult since it generally takes a stabilize + GP stall to refresh your thruster immediately after using it. So if you can't cancel your GP with thrust and have to commit to it, then you're essentially making yourself useless for almost 5-6 secs which is an eternity on Regret Slayer.

 

Finally, using thrust bumps to escape doesn't really work that well. If you're getting shot at, you can't sprint if you haven't reached max speed. Hence bumps are really not used defensively but more so offensively, which refutes your last point almost completely. You would be better off using thrust to sprint-thrust-slide away from a shitty situation or crouch in your base for spawns. Now if you break LoS and think you are okay taking the longer shield recharge time to thrust bump out of a situation, then sure go for it, but no guarantees that it's going to work any better than trying to make your aggressor one-shot with a thrust melee or just trying to put damage on the enemy team.

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You can thrust bump up onto the car streets from the inside of car 1 between bottom mid. It's a pretty easy thrust bump. Also, you can just GP away. I've done it many times. You just have to know how to break LOS.

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Personally I think the movement meta has just become overkill at this point. People have taken the swish cheese and smashed it into a million pieces.

 

Now that is truth.

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Thrust bumping is cool but looking at the bigger picture all these movement mechanics essentially amount to the affect Jetpacks had on the game.

 

Everyone can get practically everywhere from anywhere faster than the original map design intended.

 

It's not really a good thing.

 

IMO the big difference is that you are at a major disadvantage in any fight you get into immediately after doing the jump since you won't have your thrust. Like you get there faster, but more often than not the slightly longer route that doesn't waste your thrust is a better option. That definitely wasn't the case with Jetpack. I'd bring up the difference in execution skill, but that doesn't seem to be something that most people on the other side of the argument care about.

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IMO the big difference is that you are at a major disadvantage in any fight you get into immediately after doing the jump since you won't have your thrust. Like you get there faster, but more often than not the slightly longer route that doesn't waste your thrust is a better option. That definitely wasn't the case with Jetpack. I'd bring up the difference in execution skill, but that doesn't seem to be something that most people on the other side of the argument care about.

And you weren't at the same disadvantage jet packing? You still are soaring in the air and having a high ground advantage.

 

And the "execution skill" isn't this insanely high thing like you guys keep making it out to be. Most pros or top players learned how to do it in a day. Once you learn it there isn't anything left lol. It's not something that changes or anything you literally just do the same thing every time.

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challenging someone without a Thruster while someone has a Thruster in a part of the map that has lots of LoS to it is not the smartest idea

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challenging someone without a Thruster while someone has a Thruster in a part of the map that has lots of LoS to it is not the smartest idea

I mean how often does someone challenge WHILE thrust bumping? You get your thrust back in like 3 seconds so it's not that big of a deal.

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And you weren't at the same disadvantage jet packing? You still are soaring in the air and having a high ground advantage.

 

And the "execution skill" isn't this insanely high thing like you guys keep making it out to be. Most pros or top players learned how to do it in a day. Once you learn it there isn't anything left lol. It's not something that changes or anything you literally just do the same thing every time.

 

No you weren't. Jet pack didn't get turned off when you got shot, Jet pack had virtually no chance of you choking the jump, and once you landed the jump you were on even footing in any fight you got into (unlike the thrust launch where you have to win a fight without thrust vs someone who has it).

 

Also I've yet to see any player hit the more difficult launches 100% of the time, it's risk-reward just like any trick-jumps in Halo. I don't remember people choking jet-pack routes, but maybe that's just me. Just because you can hit a jump 90% of the time, doesn't mean you should discount the other 10%.

 

You can make the argument that thrust launches/bump thrusts break map flow, but I think the bigger problem in that regard is the much easier clamber jumps that are littering every map.

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No you weren't. Jet pack didn't get turned off when you got shot, Jet pack had virtually no chance of you choking the jump, and once you landed the jump you were on even footing in any fight you got into (unlike the thrust launch where you have to win a fight without thrust vs someone who has it).

 

Also I've yet to see any player hit the more difficult launches 100% of the time, it's risk-reward just like any trick-jumps in Halo. I don't remember people choking jet-pack routes, but maybe that's just me. Just because you can hit a jump 90% of the time, doesn't mean you should discount the other 10%.

 

You can make the argument that thrust launches/bump thrusts break map flow, but I think the bigger problem in that regard is the much easier clamber jumps that are littering every map.

So, because maps already are littered with routes, we should add more? Solid.

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So, because maps already are littered with routes, we should add more? Solid.

 

Your reading comprehension is almost as bad as your understanding of this game.

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