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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Chiming in on the remix conversation:

 

  • Regret/Truth: Average change in aesthetic, average change in gameplay
  • Riptide/Fathom: Very little change in aesthetic, large change in gameplay
  • Overgrowth/Plaza: Large change in aesthetic, large change in gameplay
  • Torque/Stasis: Very little change in aesthetic, very little change in gameplay
  • Tyrant/Coliseum: Large change in aesthetic, large change in gameplay
  • Empire/Eden: Barely any change in aesthetic, massive change in gameplay

A remix is fine in my books as long as they dramatically change the visuals and the gameplay. Obviously I want the map to actually play well but that's an entirely different topic. Complaining about the reuse of assets isn't connected to bad map design IMO

 

Stasis will have drastically different gameplay purely because those weird things that go up and down won't do that any more.

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I really like the concept behind Regret, Overgrowth and Riptide's aesthetics. I think the idea of taking one map and remixing it by ageing/destroying it is really cool.

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Regret being better than Eden, Rig, and Truth  :wutface:

 

Shouldn't have bolded Regret, but Eden is a terrible map for TS (Blue-Favored, HEAVILY Snowbally regardless) and Truth is crippled by the limited base entry options from Carbine side (compare to H2/H3 Middy where you could go from Car2->Gandhi->Front base).

 

Rig is Rig.

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I really like the concept behind Regret, Overgrowth and Riptide's aesthetics. I think the idea of taking one map and remixing it by ageing/destroying it is really cool.

 

 

Agreed. Riptide could have used maybe a night time treatment to darken the whites and contrast it to Fathom (since Fathom is pretty bright regardless).

 

I also still stand by my belief that Riptide would be a very good map with the right Powerup/Weapon placements. Overgrowth I don't think can be salvaged due to it's Hallway-ish nature, and Torque was just a bit too big. Stasis looks a bit smaller with more routes so it might be pretty decent.

 

--

 

Also, I found this early today so it's convenient that we are discussing remixes.

 

Screen_Shot_2016-05-11_at_1.32.43_PM.png

 

This is a picture of Riptide in development from The Sprint. The two biggest issues with Riptide (in terms of design, not weapon placements) are the lack of routes from Orange/Water to Blue Generator, and the lack of route from Pit to Blue Treehouse. In the above picture, the wall in Dock (where the lift is placed) is completely gone. One could walk from Orange to Blue and look over and put shots into Dock. It's a shame this was removed because it is one of the most pivotal design changes that would help both Slayer and Strongholds.

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Shouldn't have bolded Regret, but Eden is a terrible map for TS (Blue-Favored, HEAVILY Snowbally regardless) and Truth is crippled by the limited base entry options from Carbine side (compare to H2/H3 Middy where you could go from Car2->Gandhi->Front base).

 

Rig is Rig.

 

Rig is fantastic (would be even better without radar), in my opinion. It's the one Slayer map where I think the meta is still constantly changing at the Pro level of play. 

 

Unfamiliar with the Gandhi callout, but I assume that's the front ledge of the base that people can walk along? The ease of mobility to Top Mid + the Car Attic make up for that, plus you can always use the Clamber spot and Mason Jump to Car Attic.

 

And I don't know why you have such a strong beef with Eden. Shotgun might be a bit too strong for the Security cutoff, Red could use a bit of a buff, and Sniper is obviously easy to use, but I still think that's one of the best gamteypes in the game. I love Eden Strongholds (classic) almost as much.

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Rig is fantastic (would be even better without radar), in my opinion. It's the one Slayer map where I think the meta is still constantly changing at the Pro level of play.

The problem I hae with the Rig is mainly corridor and it's interaction with auto's, radar and the scattershot. Fucking awful experience whether you're destroying or getting destroyed. Reminds me of vanilla Countdown Slayer, but with ridiculous automatics.

 

OT: you cool to run some arena, been a while

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Rig is fantastic (would be even better without radar), in my opinion. It's the one Slayer map where I think the meta is still constantly changing at the Pro level of play. 

 

Unfamiliar with the Gandhi callout, but I assume that's the front ledge of the base that people can walk along? The ease of mobility to Top Mid + the Car Attic make up for that, plus you can always use the Clamber spot and Mason Jump to Car Attic.

 

And I don't know why you have such a strong beef with Eden. Shotgun might be a bit too strong for the Security cutoff, Red could use a bit of a buff, and Sniper is obviously easy to use, but I still think that's one of the best gamteypes in the game. I love Eden Strongholds (classic) almost as much.

 

Regarding Rig TS, I like it more than most people do.  It's a map that is very fast paced when played well.  CLG, EG, Liquid, and RNG have thrived on the map by playing it aggressively instead of playing to stalemate.  But it is a map that is highly conducive to stalemating, so it gets negative marks for me re: Slayer.  Movement is encouraged by the inherently longer spawn timers in H5 rather than the geometry/weapon layout of the map.

 

I think technically Gandhi's the ramp underneath the ledge, but it still conveyed my point.

 

But Top Mid->Car Attic doesn't make up for the lack of options for someone ON THE GROUND to get into the base.  It turns Car door into a choke point.

 

As for Eden TS, my problem with it is that Blue Side has easiest access to both Sniper and Rockets off the start.  Sniper can be grabbed with 0% chance for Red to Contest if someone spawns on Blue Plat and runs on window ledge to Snipe and then thrusts outside.  If Sniper ever gets set up in Blue, Red team doesn't have any long range options to challenge the Sniper and peg him out of scope (They're given a Light Rifle and BR, neither of which have enough red reticule range to pop the Sniper out of scope from any of the safe angles.  A DMR or Carbine would be better in place of the outside BR).  The Hydra doesn't have enough range to contest players from base-to-base.  I like that the map is power weapon focused, but the map doesn't have enough options to COUNTER power weapons/set-ups, or to encourage movement once a general set-up is initiated.  The main thing that causes movement on Eden TS isn't a new weapon spawning, it's one of the set-up team's players dying.  (Because then you need to rotate your Sniper to safety.)

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My list of changes that need to be made to make Halo 5 a fun experience online.

 

  • 1) Change the rank system back to the way it was. (It's not a true rank anymore if you can boost wins by matching low levels) 

 

  • 2) Stick to the game types/Only make MINOR changes that you dicuss with the pros, and have the public test maps in custom games/social playlists before force feeding them via Team Arena. (Nobody wants to play some of those game types/maps so making them do so = Less fun)

 

  • 3) Input lag literally varies depending on what server you play on (This is a HUGE problem), and needs to go.

 

  • 4) Bring back the party mode option for theater because it's a HUGE benefit/tool for up and coming teams to use for practice/strategic purposes.

 

  • 5) Keep up the AWESOME work with updates and new content! I can not stress how AMAZING 343 has done promoting new DLC's/updates. 

 

Very respectfully,

                                 - FabvL

 

                                         (P.S - I love Halo and want to thank 343i for making a game that was a HUGE improvement from the last)

 

 

 

BTW Check out my YouTube Channel for the best fully original Halo 5/Other game related eSports rap music.

 

YouTube.com/FabvL

 

 

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So when is the update coming out? somebody said tomorrow on the other thread. True?

Tomorrow, yes.

 

Confirmed on the live stream earlier today.

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Tomorrow, yes.

 

Confirmed on the live stream earlier today.

 

Sweet, I have a Halo gathering planned for the weekend.

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The problem I hae with the Rig is mainly corridor and it's interaction with auto's, radar and the scattershot. Fucking awful experience whether you're destroying or getting destroyed. Reminds me of vanilla Countdown Slayer, but with ridiculous automatics.

 

OT: you cool to run some arena, been a while

 

I think Rig's handling of autos is actually excellent. White Hall (Junction) and Long Hall can get a bit claustrophobic but the rest of the map has some clean sightlines and points for engagement. The only autos are the SMG E1 and Storm Rifle. You have to sacrifice major map positioning to go for the Storm, and the SMG has a decent placement. I think they should move SMG to Bottom Nest to allow people to push E1 easier. Right now SMG is given to the Bunker/Engine holders and makes and easy to defend location even easier. Other than that I think the jumps, routes, sightlines, weapon placements, and more all make that map really amazing.

 

It's also probably the best example of a map that plays insanely different at a pro level than it does at an Intermediate-High level, which is something I respect. The metagame we saw from Liquid vs. EG at Worlds on that map was absolutely insane and I loved it.

 

Like I said though, I do have a big problem with Radar nerfing teams ability to setup-break on that map.

 

And yeah, Invite me anytime.

 

Regarding Rig TS, I like it more than most people do.  It's a map that is very fast paced when played well.  CLG, EG, Liquid, and RNG have thrived on the map by playing it aggressively instead of playing to stalemate.  But it is a map that is highly conducive to stalemating, so it gets negative marks for me re: Slayer.  Movement is encouraged by the inherently longer spawn timers in H5 rather than the geometry/weapon layout of the map.

 

I think technically Gandhi's the ramp underneath the ledge, but it still conveyed my point.

 

But Top Mid->Car Attic doesn't make up for the lack of options for someone ON THE GROUND to get into the base.  It turns Car door into a choke point.

 

As for Eden TS, my problem with it is that Blue Side has easiest access to both Sniper and Rockets off the start.  Sniper can be grabbed with 0% chance for Red to Contest if someone spawns on Blue Plat and runs on window ledge to Snipe and then thrusts outside.  If Sniper ever gets set up in Blue, Red team doesn't have any long range options to challenge the Sniper and peg him out of scope (They're given a Light Rifle and BR, neither of which have enough red reticule range to pop the Sniper out of scope from any of the safe angles.  A DMR or Carbine would be better in place of the outside BR).  The Hydra doesn't have enough range to contest players from base-to-base.  I like that the map is power weapon focused, but the map doesn't have enough options to COUNTER power weapons/set-ups, or to encourage movement once a general set-up is initiated.  The main thing that causes movement on Eden TS isn't a new weapon spawning, it's one of the set-up team's players dying.  (Because then you need to rotate your Sniper to safety.)

 

 

I'll agree with that, obviously pure stalemates are terrible but I do enjoy maps that can slow down a bit and allow for potential to speed things up naturally. Like I said above, I think moving SMG or giving Open Field/Nest a better way to break Engine would be amazing to improve the flow/offensive potential when attacking Engine and breaking Bunker.

 

I can see what your saying regarding Truth, but I will say that is just the intentionally designed player choice for the map. Running a flag through Pink forces Car spawns, which often forces teams to OE to try and counter back at the enemy base, which is very difficult, whereas running a Flag with Bubble Block through Car can force Basement spawns, and if you have someone Top Mid that can rotate to Pink after a round of slaying that can be pretty powerful. Obviously the Pink Route is more favored, but the potential is there is all I'm saying. I understand the complaints though and the Clamber Jump to attic is just too difficult to pull off in a high-speed match.

 

I'm sure you are aware that Light Rifle was just added to Red Bend in place of the BR, which allows for a bit more freedom to push out of Red Base more safely. Plus, if you use that Light Rifle to contest the Plasma Pistol (now behind Rocket Box), you can then use the Plasma Pistols insane range to break down anyone controlling Catwalk or push into the wide Blue Base. I do agree however that Hydra is pretty weak (slight buff tomorrow, no range buff tho) at breaking setups. I'd honestly like to see Shotgun possibly moved a bit closer to Red to encourage offensive use against Security and Catwalk – maybe Red Alley/Red Yard, or even Red SMG. I love the focus on rotations with Sniper and the cutoffs in Turbine/Security, that's probably the main reason I enjoy the map a lot. I think the new Slayer changes are interesting but it's still one of H5's best maps.

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BTW Check out my YouTube Channel for the best fully original Halo 5/Other game related eSports rap music.

 

YouTube.com/FabvL

 

You were so close in having your first post that wasn't just self promoting your channel

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So, anyone up for some Beyond Infection "playdates"? Customs, or in actual multiplayer, party caps permitting? Should certainly be fun to set up!

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So, anyone up for some Beyond Infection "playdates"? Customs, or in actual multiplayer, party caps permitting? Should certainly be fun to set up!

 

Only if radar is off.  :kappa:

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I'm sure you are aware that Light Rifle was just added to Red Bend in place of the BR, which allows for a bit more freedom to push out of Red Base more safely. Plus, if you use that Light Rifle to contest the Plasma Pistol (now behind Rocket Box), you can then use the Plasma Pistols insane range to break down anyone controlling Catwalk or push into the wide Blue Base. I do agree however that Hydra is pretty weak (slight buff tomorrow, no range buff tho) at breaking setups. I'd honestly like to see Shotgun possibly moved a bit closer to Red to encourage offensive use against Security and Catwalk – maybe Red Alley/Red Yard, or even Red SMG. I love the focus on rotations with Sniper and the cutoffs in Turbine/Security, that's probably the main reason I enjoy the map a lot. I think the new Slayer changes are interesting but it's still one of H5's best maps.

 

I've just now played the Eden remix for the first time so that was the first I've seen the changes, and the problem with this new layout is that LR has the same range as BR, so it doesn't help the situation at all.  If it were a DMR or a Carbine, it'd be different (longer red reticule range), but the LR's existence doesn't help solve any of the issues (and it further punishes the red side opening, since they no longer have a consistent ability to contest a Sniper that DOESN'T do the window ledge fast grab), because the Light Rifle is put further out of the way.

 

I'm not sure what to think of the Plasma Pistol's positional change -- could be a net positive, but it could likewise turn into even further oppression for a trailing team if they're unable to get outside.

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I've just now played the Eden remix for the first time so that was the first I've seen the changes, and the problem with this new layout is that LR has the same range as BR, so it doesn't help the situation at all.  If it were a DMR or a Carbine, it'd be different (longer red reticule range), but the LR's existence doesn't help solve any of the issues (and it further punishes the red side opening, since they no longer have a consistent ability to contest a Sniper that DOESN'T do the window ledge fast grab), because the Light Rifle is put further out of the way.

 

I'm not sure what to think of the Plasma Pistol's positional change -- could be a net positive, but it could likewise turn into even further oppression for a trailing team if they're unable to get outside.

 

 

Well I don't think range is the issue when contesting Outside, Light Rifle is a huge ranged damage dealer. It will be a lot more effective at pushing people back into Blue Door. The BR is fine (range-wise) for fighting people at Blue Bend, it just doesn't have the damage capability to push people back or get a pick altogether.

 

After you push back whoever is holding off Blue Bend you can anchor LR at Blue Bend and use your Plasma Pistol to fight the people on Cat or in teh Base.

 

This is why I want to see Pro Teams scrim the new settings so badly. Two weapon changes could dramatically change the flow of the map and I'm interested in seeing them played out.

 

P.S. The Plasma Pistol was moved because OS is now in Pit for Strongholds, but I think it'll work out okay in Slayer as well due to the Light Rifle push that I described above.

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You were so close in having your first post that wasn't just self promoting your channel

Why would't I promote halo content i create to the halo community?

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Well I don't think range is the issue when contesting Outside, Light Rifle is a huge ranged damage dealer.

 

I think you missed my original point regarding the Rifle placed outside.  It isn't for contesting outside.

 

It's for contesting the Sniper when the Sniper is sitting at Blue Plat.  That outside rifle is the safest to grab for someone trying to break that set-up, and if you had a DMR or Carbine, you'd be able to get red reticule to peg the Sniper out of scope consistently.

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Am I the only one who can't find a game in FFA Swat? I won like 12 games in a row and now it tells me "there may not be enough players to support a game in this playlist."

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I think you missed my original point regarding the Rifle placed outside.  It isn't for contesting outside.

 

It's for contesting the Sniper when the Sniper is sitting at Blue Plat.  That outside rifle is the safest to grab for someone trying to break that set-up, and if you had a DMR or Carbine, you'd be able to get red reticule to peg the Sniper out of scope consistently.

 

 

Well I agree with that, obviously, but one could argue that Red Catwalk/Red Alley is in need of a buff to break Security/Cat. To be honest both sides could probably use a buff so teams could approach the Blue Cat/Plat setup in their own ways.

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Well I agree with that, obviously, but one could argue that Red Catwalk/Red Alley is in need of a buff to break Security/Cat. To be honest both sides could probably use a buff so teams could approach the Blue Cat/Plat setup in their own ways.

 

I'm partial to the idea of replacing Hydra with a Camo, tbh.

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I'm partial to the idea of replacing Hydra with a Camo, tbh.

 

Edited: I could see that working, but would want to keep Hydra on the map. Maybe move to Red SMG or Pit.

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