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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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3: I didn't say the pistol was better. It is the exact same as the BR, but harder to use. My point was that the BR isn't BETTER than the pistol, it is just easier.

 

So... how is the BR not better?

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Hyperbole. The left gives off the impression of being a data driven chart, while the right is just a bunch of equal sized circles overlayed.

 

 

True, but hyperbolized.

 

Edit: Jinx Frederic

 

giphy.gif

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Auto's could be a lot of fun if they had unique roles in the sandbox.  Like in CE, the AR had the better melee and quick camo.  The PR had plasma stun, which imo is still the funnest weapon in the series to use.  This is what H5 should be doing, but isn't.  

 

The AR's role in the sandbox is ok, I guess, but I just think it's too strong.  I don't even mind it's accuracy at distance.  I just think it needs to take a bit longer to kill someone with it.  I think the AR should be used for ambush kills, awkward just-outside-of-melee-range kills, setting up melees, damaging vehicles, and stripping overshields/finding camo players.  It should not be beating the pistol at mid range in a straight up fight.  The gun has too great of a reward for being as easy to use as it is.  Hell, I'd even be ok with keeping it's time to kill the same as it is now, if they made the recoil and bloom require some skill to manage.  But this holding down the trigger and running forward nonsense currently rewards brainless play far too greatly.

 

The SMG shouldn't exist.  It's just redundant as all hell, and it's way too easy to use.

 

The Storm Rifle needs to have an entirely different purpose in the sandbox.  It should strip shields quickly, but it should not do nearly as much damage to health as it does now.  I think plasma stun needs to make a return, but this gun should have another unique property; it should EMP your suit.  Getting hit by the Storm Rifle should put your thrust on cooldown.  We don't need another auto who's purpose is just straight damage output at close range.  Lets get some niche purposes in here.

 

The Suppressor, as it stands now, is just too weak.  I think we can all agree that it's the worst weapon in the game.  Because, again, it doesn't serve a unique purpose.  What if instead of shooting needler-like projectiles, it functioned like a mini-gun?  It's already got the spin-up time.  What if it was like the alternate fire from the minigun in Unreal Tournament, where it fired a relatively quick projectile that did significant knockback?  Or what if we gave it a higher ttk, but the weapon had a corrosive property to it that did lingering damage, and kept victims' shields down for longer?

 

Stuff like that is how you make an interesting sandbox, and Halo has been lacking it for a while.  Adding EMP to the plasma pistol was one of the last creative additions I've seen.

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...But that's the point. Within the contextual balance of H5, the automatics are overpowered compared to the weapon that is supposed to be the utility weapon. 

 

If the H5 pistol was a four shot or even a three shot, the automatics would not be OP anymore. 

OP is a strong statement that I don't agree with.

 

What you guys are saying is that the Autos are OP through the gameplay in every level making the pistol obsolete which is completely false because in high level of play it doesn't look like that at all.

 

The Pistol is not UP in the sense that it completely sucks and cant be used in competitive play, making strong snowball effects in the gameplay. Which is again, false. 

 

However, does the Pistol have some issues with TTK and the like? Yes, however the game is not broken even if it stays in a 5sk. 

 

Generally, what were saying is this game plays pretty well when it comes to competitive play. Could it use some fixes that would make the game play better? Yes. Will it play like absolute trash if they don't make the Pistol 4sk? No

 

It's like a lot of the people who vouched for Gold Pro, most players who were vouching for it really did like ZBNS Reach and thought 5sk DMR no bloom was still really good. However 4sk DMR would be better is what they generally were going for, it's not like the other option was complete garbage to them. 

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Believe what you want, this game is using a different form of "balance" than any other title.

 

Exactly. Different, but not inherently better or worse. You can't seriously have watched that gold medal series last night and concluded that the game is significantly imbalanced.

 

Are there a few things I'd like to see changed a bit? Of course.

Is the game unsuitable for tournament play if those changes aren't made? Clearly not the case.

Can the same be said of any other Halo's base gametypes without any community made changes? Hell no; even Halo 1 needed standardised spawning weapons to be set if you didn't want to be spawning with Plasma Pistols on some maps.

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OP is a strong statement that I don't agree with.

 

What you guys are saying is that the Autos are OP through the gameplay in every level making the pistol obsolete which is completely false because in high level of play it doesn't look like that at all.

 

The Pistol is not UP in the sense that it completely sucks and cant be used in competitive play, making strong snowball effects in the gameplay. Which is again, false. 

 

However, does the Pistol have some issues with TTK and the like? Yes, however the game is not broken even if it stays in a 5sk. 

 

Generally, what were saying is this game plays pretty well when it comes to competitive play. Could it use some fixes that would make the game play better? Yes. Will it play like absolute trash if they don't make the Pistol 4sk? No

 

It's like a lot of the people who vouched for Gold Pro, most players who were vouching for it really did like ZBNS Reach and thought 5sk DMR no bloom was still really good. However 4sk DMR would be better is what they generally were going for, it's not like the other option was complete garbage to them. 

 

Are we really going to sit here and split the difference between "overpowered" and "too powerful", though? 

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Of course they could still break set ups, but that's doesn't mean it's a fair fight. The team with control snowballs more than any other title, no matter how little it may seem to you or me. But I just want to know if you think pros would pick up the pistol and use it even half as often as they do if it was Br starts. Because as it is the pistol is outclassed by every rifle.

In every Halo a set upped team is in a stronger fight against the spawners, it's a thing in every Halo but you're making it sound like set ups are WAY stronger than other Halos which if you watch the matches is not true. You still have fair power weapon timers (Something that was super detrimental in H2 when it came to setups, not to mention the slow TTK), a gun that shoots straight (something H3 did not have) and a relatively fast starting weapon (Reach did not have since it was 1.5s). The snowball effect isn't in play though if setups are broken all the time and games are close throughout the match and it isn't lopsided 

 

Also its hilarious that you guys complain about snowball when Halo 1 Derelict is ridiculously snowbally once your team is in top control. I remember talking to cT about it a while ago how as soon as you killed the enemies on top and you had top control, you could go through a 10-20 kill run. 

 

Pros would pick up Pistol on BR spawns dependent on their playstyle. Royal 2 would still do it, Ogre 2 would at times, VicX, Snipedown, etc. Depends on how you want to play. Stellur likes to get in your face so ARs for him, VicX tries to hold everything down so Rifles only for him, etc. 

 

Also these theoretics are dumb because in actual gameplay there is still a lot of Pistol usage by everyone and it's never a snowball effect unless your team is in general messing up 

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Exactly. Different, but not inherently better or worse. You can't seriously have watched that gold medal series last night and concluded that the game is significantly imbalanced.

 

Are there a few things I'd like to see changed a bit? Of course.

Is the game unsuitable for tournament play if those changes aren't made? Clearly not the case.

Can the same be said of any other Halo's base gametypes without any community made changes? Hell no; even Halo 1 needed standardised spawning weapons to be set if you didn't want to be spawning with Plasma Pistols on some maps.

"Halo 5 base gameplay is more competitive than past titles" is a pretty shitty way to defend the settings. The problem is Halo 5 base gameplay is also the competitive settings. So you have to compare Halo 5 comp to past titles comp changes. Yes Halo 5 base gameplay is better than AR/SMG starts of the past but that's not saying Halo 5 can't be better. This game would 109% be more competitive with rebalanced autos/rifles so that the pistol is the dominant utility weapon.

 

Again, why do people always find the need to mention past titles social settings as a justification for what we have now?

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In every Halo a set upped team is in a stronger fight against the spawners, it's a thing in every Halo but you're making it sound like set ups are WAY stronger than other Halos which if you watch the matches is not true. You still have fair power weapon timers (Something that was super detrimental in H2 when it came to setups, not to mention the slow TTK), a gun that shoots straight (something H3 did not have) and a relatively fast starting weapon (Reach did not have since it was 1.5s). The snowball effect isn't in play though if setups are broken all the time and games are close throughout the match and it isn't lopsided

 

Also its hilarious that you guys complain about snowball when Halo 1 Derelict is ridiculously snowbally once your team is in top control. I remember talking to cT about it a while ago how as soon as you killed the enemies on top and you had top control, you could go through a 10-20 kill run.

 

Pros would pick up Pistol on BR spawns dependent on their playstyle. Royal 2 would still do it, Ogre 2 would at times, VicX, Snipedown, etc. Depends on how you want to play. Stellur likes to get in your face so ARs for him, VicX tries to hold everything down so Rifles only for him, etc.

 

Also these theoretics are dumb because in actual gameplay there is still a lot of Pistol usage by everyone and it's never a snowball effect unless your team is in general messing up

The pistol is not a utility weapon. There are better rifles on the map. There will always be more snowballing because of these facts alone.

 

And I guarantee you the BR would be used more than the pistol is currently if it were the starting weapon. Pros would pick it up solely as a back up. And even then they would pick up smg/SR over it.

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Are we really going to sit here and split the difference between "overpowered" and "too powerful", though? 

I mean I come from a Fighting game background so the term OP is, at least in my head, a statement of there being no options to counter or beat it. Which I think is false when it comes to Autos. They're a bit strong but saying there is no counters to autos is a bit out there if you ask me.

 

Should there be some changes? Yea, is it completely detrimental to competitive play if they don't? not really.

 

What this forum generally turns down to is "The pistol is obsolete and is a niche which is rarely used, while the Autos are highly prevalent and this is not how a competitive Halo game should be" which is like I said, false with stats and whatnot.

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All of this pistol vs rifle talk seems silly when you consider that the advantage isn't even that big, and how easy it is to get your hands on a rifle shortly after spawning.  If we were talking Reach Magnum vs Reach DMR it'd be a different conversation, but pistol users beat rifle users pretty regularly in this game.  I think the argument is totally overblown.  I mean, my goodness, did you guys even watch the X Games tournament?  The game plays incredible at a high level.

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The pistol is not a utility weapon. There are better rifles on the map. There will always be more snowballing because of these facts alone.

 

And I guarantee you the BR would be used more than the pistol is currently if it were the starting weapon. Pros would pick it up solely as a back up. And even then they would pick up smg/SR over it.

I think this discussion would be better if we define what is snowballing in Halo game. What do you define it as? I personally define it as when a team can get a specific scenario to happen, it makes the other team very weak and cannot fix the situation quickly and by fixing the situation would not be detrimental to what the scoreboard shows. For instance, if a game in Slayer is very snowball, the scoreboard would be very high for one team for a set amount (assuming they get this specific scenario) and as soon as the losing team gets this effect of a snowball starting, the scoreboard would slowly catch up to the team that was winning and make it relatively even.

 

Eh, depends on the playstyle. Priority 3/4 don't pick up autos a lot and even if they do, they rarely use it in my exp. Personally I think the kills would be evenish but this hypothetical question really cant be answered because competitive play is never going to be BR starts anyways. 

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I mean I come from a Fighting game background so the term OP is, at least in my head, a statement of there being no options to counter or beat it. Which I think is false when it comes to Autos. They're a bit strong but saying there is no counters to autos is a bit out there if you ask me.

 

Should there be some changes? Yea, is it completely detrimental to competitive play if they don't? not really.

 

What this forum generally turns down to is "The pistol is obsolete and is a niche which is rarely used, while the Autos are highly prevalent and this is not how a competitive Halo game should be" which is like I said, false with stats and whatnot.

 

But as I said, if the game was BR starts and the pistol was a map pickup, would it or would it not be a "niche weapon"?

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"Halo 5 base gameplay is more competitive than past titles" is a pretty shitty way to defend the settings. The problem is Halo 5 base gameplay is also the competitive settings. So you have to compare Halo 5 comp to past titles comp changes. Yes Halo 5 base gameplay is better than AR/SMG starts of the past but that's not saying Halo 5 can't be better. This game would 109% be more competitive with rebalanced autos/rifles so that the pistol is the dominant utility weapon.

 

Again, why do people always find the need to mention past titles social settings as a justification for what we have now?

 

I just don't see the complaints you have as being particularly problematic. The movement abilities have a much bigger effect on the way the game plays than the weapon sandbox does.

 

You could use either the Halo 5 sandbox or any other post-CE sandbox and not much would change at high levels because the decisive plays ultimately don't come down to which weapons you use with any meaningful frequency.

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But as I said, if the game was BR starts and the pistol was a map pickup, would it or would it not be a "niche weapon"?

It wouldn't be.  I don't think people would bother picking it up, as it doesn't really have a situation it excels at.  Anything the magnum can do, the BR does better.  But I'm ok with that.  I'm still capable and dangerous off my spawn, but I don't mind if someone that has been on the map longer than me has a bit of an advantage.  Now if I had my way, we wouldn't have all of these redundant, straight-upgrade style weapons in the game, but as it stands I think the small advantage you get from the on-map rifles is fine.

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just curious how good is the rank + matchmaking in halo 5?

Good, but super slow matches once you rank high.

 

It gets to a point where the game could and should be more lenient on skill-based Matchmaking (and the difference would be minimal/unnoticeable) to provide faster matches.

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I think this discussion would be better if we define what is snowballing in Halo game. What do you define it as? I personally define it as when a team can get a specific scenario to happen, it makes the other team very weak and cannot fix the situation quickly and by fixing the situation would not be detrimental to what the scoreboard shows. For instance, if a game in Slayer is very snowball, the scoreboard would be very high for one team for a set amount (assuming they get this specific scenario) and as soon as the losing team gets this effect of a snowball starting, the scoreboard would slowly catch up to the team that was winning and make it relatively even.

 

Eh, depends on the playstyle. Priority 3/4 don't pick up autos a lot and even if they do, they rarely use it in my exp. Personally I think the kills would be evenish but this hypothetical question really cant be answered because competitive play is never going to be BR starts anyways.

In any other Halo title when I spawn I am not at a disadvantage weapon wise. Maybe the opponents pick up some close range niche weapon but I would still be on equal ground to. In CE the pistol is a utility weapon. In H2/H3 the BR was a utility weapon. In Reach it was the DMR. The game was heavily focused on those weapon duels. In Halo 5 there is way more unfair encounters. Every time 2 people are fighting with different rifles one player has an advantage because there is no way to make them all 100% equal to each other. On top of that the pistol is easily the worst precision weapon in the game. And you spawn with it against people that could have any other rifle. That is now an unbalanced thing.

 

I implore you to please play FFA and try only using pistol. Also, play anyone 1v1 or 4v4 using just pistols. Record the result. Now give one team BR's and one team pistols. Record the results.

 

At the end of the day you spawn with the 2 weakest weapons in their respective categories. Well the AR beats suppressor so second best.

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Good, but super slow matches once you rank high.

 

It gets to a point where the game could and should be more lenient on skill-based Matchmaking (and the difference would be minimal/unnoticeable) to provide faster matches.

 

Oh, I just wanted to know because I just picked it up and I'm already Plat 5 on Team Slayer but I wasn't sure if people are bad or the ranking up is easy but I can see that it's getting tougher to get higher a bit.

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It wouldn't be.  I don't think people would bother picking it up, as it doesn't really have a situation it excels at.  Anything the magnum can do, the BR does better.  But I'm ok with that.  I'm still capable and dangerous off my spawn, but I don't mind if someone that has been on the map longer than me has a bit of an advantage.  Now if I had my way, we wouldn't have all of these redundant, straight-upgrade style weapons in the game, but as it stands I think the small advantage you get from the on-map rifles is fine.

 

Let's be clear here, competitive Halo has never had a snowballing problem. Ever, in fact. That's never been the issue, the issue is that from 2004 onward competitive Halo has never been anywhere near as good as it could (or ought to) be. 

 

What is a problem, however, is people essentially saying: 

 

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@@Batchford played solidly today

 

GG's homie

What's with the names not showing up with the @ now? 

 

Edit: The name is there when I quote you however. 

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I guess this would be the easiest way to say this.

 

The pistol is the worst precision weapon and is not a utility weapon. This leads to many unfair fights against the other rifles. Even if the piston guy "wins some fights" he was at an unnecessary disadvantage.

 

The problem with autos is that they absolutely dominate in their "niche". They kill faster than the precision weapons. If you are ambushed you will lose 100% of the fights to a skilled player.

 

I want a game centered around utility weapon combat, niche pick ups that compliment certain playstyles, not guarantee wins, and power weapon/up control.

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just curious how good is the rank + matchmaking in halo 5?

 

Good, but they need party restrictions and you need to be able to rank down a division. Getting carried to division you don't belong and always staying there all season is terrible.

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