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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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You don't even play the other Halo games.

 

Your mom doesn't even play the other halo games.

 

youre good lol because you don't talk like an old man upset people like new things. Plus you're one of the only h1 players who actually PLAY the game rather than preach it all the time. Yourw practically the only one here who plays at a high level in h1 lol

 

My complaint with this discussion is that having a faster killtime does not change the fact that the optimum way to deal damage and receive as little as possible is by combining fire with your teammates. Coordinating to take down the same player is not a concept isolated to everything post halo 1. Its just that the window where a second player is able to assist a teammate with the same opponent shrinks considerably. This puts increased emphasis on positioning yourself in a way that allows your teammate to assist. Lets watch a good gameplay showcasing this:

 

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I can't wait for 343 to spend weeks looking into and researching this problem before fixing it.

"We felt that the use of death zones was a little squirrely."

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"We felt that the use of death zones was a little squirrely."

 

The death zones weren't immersive enough.

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Death Zones were in the more traditional Halos, but we didn't feel that they fit into our vision of OUR Halo. We wanted to innovate how map boundaries worked.

 

 

 

I'll stop now...

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"Looks like they're finally starting to figure out Overgrowth's deep meta!" - 343  :kappa:

I kinda want to see a team get a lead and just get out of the map for the rest of the game during an actual event. The casting would be tier 1.

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Your mom doesn't even play the other halo games.

 

 

My complaint with this discussion is that having a faster killtime does not change the fact that the optimum way to deal damage and receive as little as possible is by combining fire with your teammates. Coordinating to take down the same player is not a concept isolated to everything post halo 1. Its just that the window where a second player is able to assist a teammate with the same opponent shrinks considerably. This puts increased emphasis on positioning yourself in a way that allows your teammate to assist. Lets watch a good gameplay showcasing this:

 

 

Oh this is such a good gameplay of how teammates assist players. There's a good reason why Patch (I think 1st player?) was in bottom midish area for the beginning of that match

 

I'm not disagreeing with you here. Top players consider LoS and teammates LoS a lot and place themselves in areas where they can back them up. They might not communicate it in h1 since players split screen but it's still considered a lot. The optimum way to play is assisting teammates in that sense but it becomes a problem when its like h3 where you cant do much by yourself in that sense. H5 imo isn't like that and even with Thrust it's still doable to do a lot of dmg and threat by yourself. Obviously it isn't like h1 but it's much better than H2/H3 with slow TTK and strongsiding and Reach with a 1.5 TTK

 

Of course I do, but it's curious that I get on just fine in H1 without hearing a single word, yet that's not the case in any other Halo.

Like Cujjer and I discussed, it's optimum to play around teammates LoS to assist players, it works in every halo game. Finding 1 teammate in h1 is much easier than looking for teammates in a 4v4 match (not sayign h1 is easy, just that finding 1 buddy is easier lets be honest there) and considering position is a bit more hectic in that sense. Plus split screening is a thing with good players unless you're XBCing which im sure players call out anyways. 

 

It's unfortunate that defensive escape options are in the game- these nullify any tenth of a second buffs to kill times.

 

In order for this game to have more viable strategies than teamshooting, individuals need to be stronger than they currently are.

 

where do you get this math lol. You can put a lot of threat and dmg by yourself in this game. You forgetting H2 and H3 also had Strongsiding where people ran away easily? Or lockout TS and Pit TS were things where these issues were highly prevalent? 

 

The game plays around considering teams positions and LoS this is obvious in any team shooter game. Even H1 plays in that sense just like Cujjer said, it's just harder in h1 considered to other halo games. 

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Until it's announced, what's the point?

 

For all you know, there could be a spin-off Halo game in the works for next year. It could an be an ultra competitive Halo CE-based 100% MP game (j/k lol), it could be something like Halo 3: ODST, it could be a game focusing on one of the thousand loose ends in the lore, it could be a major expansion to Halo 5 coming with a big title update, etc.

 

If you want to discuss the future game in hopes of making changes to the core, then it's best to push for the said changes through Halo 5 beforehand. The main controversial mechanics that were removed over the years (in previous games) were first removed through title updates and patches, then just omitted from the next installment.

 

Most people who have problems with the game should keep reminding 343 of the various shortcomings with Halo 5 instead of just letting them deliver something subpar and getting over it/forgetting about it. We don't want 5 game modes. We don't want maps like Overgrowth. We don't want ridiculous search times. We don't want fake social. We don't want ridiculous automatics and super bullet magnetism.

 

I don't hate Halo 5 and the goal isn't to spite 343. I appreciate the good things they've done for the franchise, but some things can't just be left behind and forgotten about... not because mistakes and shortcomings are something wrong that should be pointed out to make an embarrassment out of, but because people should be able to appreciate a product that costed a lot of money and time (both for the consumer and the developer) when the potential for it is right there. We should push for the current product to be able to reach success in ways we can. It's far from too late for Halo 5; it's about to stir a fair amount of interest with HCS getting started and a ~$2 million prize pool.

 

Anyways, point is, let's focus on Halo 5 because it's still a worthwhile fight. I understand a lot of people don't have it in them after all those years, and that's fine... but for those who do, that's what I think should be done.

By the time its announced its too late for meaningful feedback.

 

H5 is too far from what most people want to "fix" it with updates. Thats pointless.

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Do you honestly expect the average Joe ex-halo player to be able to articulate why they don't enjoy the game?  Most people have no idea why they enjoy or don't enjoy a game.

I think you're massively undervaluing people's comprehension of their experiences. Even children understand why the do and do not enjoy games (or broader media experiences for that matter).

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Like Cujjer and I discussed, it's optimum to play around teammates LoS to assist players, it works in every halo game. Finding 1 teammate in h1 is much easier than looking for teammates in a 4v4 match (not sayign h1 is easy, just that finding 1 buddy is easier lets be honest there) and considering position is a bit more hectic in that sense. Plus split screening is a thing with good players unless you're XBCing which im sure players call out anyways.

Uh...alright? 

 

The kill times are still too long. 

 

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It finally happened. I always wondered if it would, and it finally did.

could you not post 13mb gifs?

 

for fucks sake, you of all people should know that's stupid 

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Uh...alright? 

 

The kill times are still too long. 

 

This has been a thing since '04 though and h5 is probably the smallest culprit of this issue is what im saying. This is just how Halo plays now when it comes to anything released past '01. It isn't going to change. You guys make it sound like H5 takes longer than Halo 3 or something half the time on this forum

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You are completely missing the point.

 

People like the weapon balancing in this game. Lots of people, more than the people here who don't like it. It's one of the most praised aspects of the multiplayer.

 

You're kidding yourself if you think the weapon balancing is one of the reasons why people aren't playing this game.

These are all assumptions.

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I think you're massively undervaluing people's comprehension of their experiences. Even children understand why the do and do not enjoy games (or broader media experiences for that matter).

I think what he means is that most people don't reflect on why they enjoy or don't enjoy a game. They either enjoy it and stick with it or they don't and move on.

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This has been a thing since '04 though and h5 is probably the smallest culprit of this issue is what im saying. 

 

But it isn't. It's exactly the same. What tiny fraction of the weapons being stronger is more than negated by sprint+thrust+clamber. It's not just the number associated with the weapon, it's everything that's going on in the game. 

 

It was a big problem in H2 and there was none of that stuff there. 

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By the time its announced its too late for meaningful feedback.

 

H5 is too far from what most people want to "fix" it with updates. Thats pointless.

Can you see how that could be an issue?

 

"What's your feedback for H6?"

"Scrap everything, go back 12 years+ and start again"

 

In the few responses since you brought it up I've already seen that talked about - it's basically wasted breath. If you want actual change you need to attempt to understand the direction/s 343 want to take the series and at least try to work within the confines in some capacity. I think there are actually too many hurdles for this to take place nowadays though, people tend to get caught up in semantics and theoretic ideals so it essentially becomes a nice read (argument) but not much more than that.

 

Going on from what Vetoed said, IMO the best way is to focus on what you can improve, not cull, about the current experience and presenting that in a way that will gain popularity outside of this community (r/ halo is probably the main target for getting ideas circulating). A few pointers:

  • If you're presenting the developer as inept, you're probably doing it wrong.
  • If you're presenting the audience as children who don't know what they enjoy, you're probably doing it wrong.
  • If you're ranting about something being 'fundamentally flawed', you're probably doing it wrong.

Show you understand the games mechanics, show you at least have an idea of what the developer is aiming for (silly bullshit like quoting 'immersion' doesn't count for this) before adding your own ideas. Below is a great example of another community stepping up to try and present an understanding of the game mechanics in a way that's graspable:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/3wyypv/the_ak47s_spraying_inaccuracy_before_and_after/

 

 

Developer response after reverting the changes:

Why change rifles at all?

In CS:GO, spraying is generally the most popular way of firing a rifle. We can see this pretty clearly in the rifle data that we collect internally, and it’s something we hear the community discussing frequently.

 

Because we think it’s valuable for players to have choices when they’re thinking about how to engage an opponent, we looked at ways to make tapping/bursting a bit more appealing. The hope was that by encouraging more deliberate firing, we would add something skillful that players could use to their advantage.

As a first step toward this goal, we increased recoverytime for the AK-47, M4A4, and M4A1-S. For a detailed breakdown of the change and its impact, check out this excellent community post by lalush.

 

Unfortunately, our implementation failed in a few ways.

 

For one thing, increasing inaccuracy while spraying also comes with reduced accuracy for all forms of firing. Proportionally, spraying was the most impacted, but we underestimated the impact that the change would have on players who were already firing in shorter bursts.

 

As it turns out, the adjustments didn’t really achieve the goal either – our rifle data shows that players in all skill groups are still spraying more than tapping or bursting.

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Can you see how that could be an issue?

 

"What's your feedback for H6?"

"Scrap everything, go back 12 years+ and start again"

 

In the few responses since you brought it up I've already seen that talked about - it's basically wasted breath. If you want actual change you need to attempt to understand the direction/s 343 want to take the series and at least try to work within the confines in some capacity. I think there are actually too many hurdles for this to take place nowadays though, people tend to get caught up in semantics and theoretic ideals so it essentially becomes a nice read (argument) but not much more than that.

 

Going on from what Vetoed said, IMO the best way is to focus on what you can improve, not cull, about the current experience and presenting that in a way that will gain popularity outside of this community (r/ halo is probably the main target for getting ideas circulating). A few pointers:

  • If you're presenting the developer as inept, you're probably doing it wrong.
  • If you're presenting the audience as children who don't know what they enjoy, you're probably doing it wrong.
  • If you're ranting about something being 'fundamentally flawed', you're probably doing it wrong.

Show you understand the games mechanics, show you at least have an idea of what the developer is aiming for (silly bullshit like quoting 'immersion' doesn't count for this) before adding your own ideas. Below is a great example of another community stepping up to try and present an understanding of the game mechanics in a way that's graspable:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/3wyypv/the_ak47s_spraying_inaccuracy_before_and_after/

 

 Is it doing it wrong if this is all true, though?

 

Why improve on flawed when you can start over with something good?

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But it isn't. It's exactly the same. What tiny fraction of the weapons being stronger is more than negated by sprint+thrust+clamber. It's not just the number associated with the weapon, it's everything that's going on in the game. 

 

It was a big problem in H2 and there was none of that stuff there. 

Exactly. People cite fast kill times in Halo 5 where in reality there are more escapes than any other Halo for any given encounter. 

 

The kill times aren't slow, but they are when you factor in all the other variables in the game. If sprint, thrust and clamber have to remain in the game, the kill times need to be cut down significantly. Especially with the skill based weapons. 

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Can you see how that could be an issue?

 

 

Let's not sit here and pretend like either Bungie or 343 has ever been open to real, legitimate discussion about the nitty-gritty of Halo's mechanics. 

 

It's never been true and it never will be true. 

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Let's not sit here and pretend like either Bungie or 343 has ever been open to real, legitimate discussion about the nitty-gritty of Halo's mechanics. 

 

It's never been true and it never will be true. 

It's very rarely a discussion with other developers either. The example I quoted wasn't Valve asking anyone if they wanted the guns less accurate, they just did it (as they always do), people took the time to interpret and then respond.

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It's very rarely a discussion with other developers either. The example I quoted wasn't Valve asking anyone if they wanted the guns less accurate, they just did it (as they always do), people took the time to interpret and then respond.

 

Complaining about the aim changes happened across all the Halo communities on the internet. 

 

Rather than actually sit down and explain what they specifically did to they aiming, why they changed it when nobody was unhappy in the first place, or what their motivation for changing it was aside from one sentence about "squirrely" feel...they just ignored the complaining and were content with what they did. 

 

And giving us aiming options is not a real response because it doesn't fix whatever the hell they did. 

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Complaining about the aim changes happened across all the Halo communities on the internet. 

 

Rather than actually sit down and explain what they specifically did to they aiming, why they changed it when nobody was unhappy in the first place, or what their motivation for changing it was aside from one sentence about "squirrely" feel...they just ignored the complaining and were content with what they did. 

 

And giving us aiming options is not a real response because it doesn't fix whatever the hell they did. 

Yup, the aiming is still beyond bad. They didn't actually fix the underlying issue with the aiming. Whatever they did between to beta and final release is still there and I notice it every time I play. 

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