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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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Regardless if there was one soul there that had an eye for competitive gameplay (which I highly doubt the intricacies of h1 were all by purposeful design), the main point is that Bungie made a conscience intentional decision to move away from that type of gameplay.  Some people seem to be making Bungie to be some sort of competitive masterminds, when that is far from the truth.  343 has done no favors, but each Bungie iteration was purposeful steps in the wrong direction (and a similar direction to the current sandbox gameplay that 343 is going for).

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  • Grifball
  • Living Dead
  • Race
  • Brawl
  • BTB Heavies
  • CTF ("Flagstravaganza")
  • Maption Sack (nothing but Forge maps)
  • Octagon 1v1 (ranked, could be fun)
  • Team Control (KoTH, Territories, Strongholds)
  • 3 Ball
  • Ricochet

 

plus of course all the playlists that should have been there at launch (Doubles, Snipers, Team Objective, Multi Team, Social Skirmish, Social Slayer)

 

"Obviously we'd all love to throw Infection or Grifball there but in terms of what is possible with Halo 5 right now, what would you actually put there?"

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They aren't going to focus 100% on the points you brought up, but they discuss a lot. I think there are 5 separate 20 minute videos and they're pretty insightful. The thing is he hosted these and very few people even asked him deep questions. He went over a lot of interesting stories about design and stuff, and one in particular was about nading weapons. It wasn't intentional to stand in certain areas and nade weapons off 7 walls into your hands. It wasn't a thought in their mind during playtesting, but the fact that grenades do move weapons was a completely intentional design that he thought was fun.

 

 

 

So I assume you don't know how this whole blog/web seminar started then, cause that's exactly how it happened.

 

Nading power weapons - that is a perfect example of accidental design.  Not purposeful design intents of competitive gameplay.

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Read Hardy Lebel's blogs about CE and you'll realize a lot of it wasn't luck but a very thoughtful process. A blanket statement about past and current bungie employees is unfair, people come and go.

 

One thing is for certain which is not debatable is that Hardy Lebel was a superior map designer relative to any employee that's ever worked for 343.  No, he never intended for the spawn system to work as it functioned with force spawns and randoms working as they do in 2v2, but at least he made maps and a system so dynamic with actual physics that it enabled a highly competitive game to result.  He had less tools to work with back then and still managed to make better maps than anything we have today.  His knowledge on symmetrical and asymmetrical design is unparalleled.  In a world where goldeneye on N64 was the go to console shooter game, Hardy designed maps based on his knowledge of quake and Unreal Tournament.  Halo was launched and the console world of FPS shooters was forever changed. His creation was a GAME CHANGER and Sundance DiGiovanni from MLG welcomed it with open arms and on Oct 25th, 2003, the best of the best faced off to play the greatest console FPS shooter ever designed, Halo CE at MLG.  MLG took what AGP did and brought it to a new level, just like Hardy took Quake and UT and brought it to another level.

 

Hardy lit a fire under everyone's ass and the only one's who are sore about it are those who weren't involved in halo CE from 01-03 and didn't get involved until H3 or after.  That way of thinking is analogous to these gen Z kids who think Lebron James is the best basketball player.  Sorry kids, Jordan went 6/6 in the finals with 6 FVMP to back it up.  Perfection.   Someone that's been playing halo since halo CE with more experience knows more about wether or not a game is good than some kid popping H5 into his console for the first time and thinking it's the greatest thing ever.  

 

It must be so frustrating working at 343 with all those latest software tools at their disposal to be outdone by a guy like Hardy who did it 17 years ago.   Hell, the homemade maps on halo 1.5 LAN edition are better maps than anything in Halo 5.  Such is the difference between careful, well thought out map design and throwing a piece of shit at the wall with pretty graphics and hoping it will stick.  

 

No one should be giving 343 a pass on a game that is being out done by a game made 17 years ago.  Saying that "the game was better by sheer luck" is not an excuse.

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Regardless if there was one soul there that had an eye for competitive gameplay (which I highly doubt the intricacies of h1 were all by purposeful design), the main point is that Bungie made a conscience intentional decision to move away from that type of gameplay. Some people seem to be making Bungie to be some sort of competitive masterminds, when that is far from the truth. 343 has done no favors, but each Bungie iteration was purposeful steps in the wrong direction (and a similar direction to the current sandbox gameplay that 343 is going for).

I agree with you, their sequels (a shame they are even called that) make it very clear. I will never understand why they moved away from what made the game so great to begin with... I'm still haunted by the first time I spawned with an SMG

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I knew the real numbers were bad but not this bad.

 

 

I mean when you think about it... If it sold 3 million copies people played on average 2 matches in a week. That's pretty bad and does not bode well for retention

I just realized it's still bad but not as bad as you think.

 

You need to multiply games played by players in the game. It works out to 20 games in a week. (Assuming even split between Arena and Warzone)

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We had the first (ever?) Halo 5 Online tournament casted using spectator mode last night. 

 

Had a slightly rocky start with a random audio delay problem, but overall I think it went pretty great. 

 

 

Spectator mode is kind of difficult to work with though for online tournaments, I wish they would have modeled it after Call of Duty and Gears where you actually join the lobby. Right now its a little like watching theater, and the casters would have to actually count down on stream (3-2-1) before every match to make sure they were both in sync and seeing the same thing on their screens.

 

Not an impossible hurdle, just a slight annoyance. I am very glad we can atleast spectate now! 

The fact you can't play this game on LAN is going to cause some concerns/issues down the road, you guys are aware of that right? All someone has to do is get that IP address and it could shut the whole tournament down. You can't even have local tournaments/halo parties anymore without having it on an approved dedicated server which is absolutely bogus.

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I've never been terribly sure why people were in such a huff to prove that H1 wasn't an accident. I mean, it's not like we win anything if that's the case.

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I've never been terribly sure why people were in such a huff to prove that H1 wasn't an accident. I mean, it's not like we win anything if that's the case.

 

And quite literally nothing changes either way.

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One thing is for certain which is not debatable is that Hardy Lebel was a superior map designer relative to any employee that's ever worked for 343. No, he never intended for the spawn system to work as it functioned with force spawns and randoms working as they do in 2v2, but at least he made maps and a system so dynamic with actual physics that it enabled a highly competitive game to result. He had less tools to work with back then and still managed to make better maps than anything we have today. His knowledge on symmetrical and asymmetrical design is unparalleled. In a world where goldeneye on N64 was the go to console shooter game, Hardy designed maps based on his knowledge of quake and Unreal Tournament. Halo was launched and the console world of FPS shooters was forever changed. His creation was a GAME CHANGER and Sundance DiGiovanni from MLG welcomed it with open arms and on Oct 25th, 2003, the best of the best faced off to play the greatest console FPS shooter ever designed, Halo CE at MLG. MLG took what AGP did and brought it to a new level, just like Hardy took Quake and UT and brought it to another level.

 

Hardy lit a fire under everyone's ass and the only one's who are sore about it are those who weren't involved in halo CE from 01-03 and didn't get involved until H3 or after. That way of thinking is analogous to these gen Z kids who think Lebron James is the best basketball player. Sorry kids, Jordan went 6/6 in the finals with 6 FVMP to back it up. Perfection. Someone that's been playing halo since halo CE with more experience knows more about wether or not a game is good than some kid popping H5 into his console for the first time and thinking it's the greatest thing ever.

 

It must be so frustrating working at 343 with all those latest software tools at their disposal to be outdone by a guy like Hardy who did it 17 years ago. Hell, the homemade maps on halo 1.5 LAN edition are better maps than anything in Halo 5. Such is the difference between careful, well thought out map design and throwing a piece of shit at the wall with pretty graphics and hoping it will stick.

 

No one should be giving 343 a pass on a game that is being out done by a game made 17 years ago. Saying that "the game was better by sheer luck" is not an excuse.

That feeling you get when you really want to give someone positive rep but you've used it already on inferior posts...

 

+rep

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I've never been terribly sure why people were in such a huff to prove that H1 wasn't an accident. I mean, it's not like we win anything if that's the case.

If quality design can only be accidental in the industry, then that's a pretty big deal. I think people are worried that Halo's success is down to a series of happy accidents.

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I've never been terribly sure why people were in such a huff to prove that H1 wasn't an accident. I mean, it's not like we win anything if that's the case.

Just an excuse to remember better times I guess.

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They aren't going to focus 100% on the points you brought up, but they discuss a lot. I think there are 5 separate 20 minute videos and they're pretty insightful. The thing is he hosted these and very few people even asked him deep questions. He went over a lot of interesting stories about design and stuff, and one in particular was about nading weapons. It wasn't intentional to stand in certain areas and nade weapons off 7 walls into your hands. It wasn't a thought in their mind during playtesting, but the fact that grenades do move weapons was a completely intentional design that he thought was fun.

 

 

 

So I assume you don't know how this whole blog/web seminar started then, cause that's exactly how it happened.

He goes into some good detail in many aspects of what he did for CE, those are great vids.

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I've never been terribly sure why people were in such a huff to prove that H1 wasn't an accident. I mean, it's not like we win anything if that's the case.

I remember intent of the developer being important to people when I went on thc that one time...

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If quality design can only be accidental in the industry, then that's a pretty big deal. I think people are worried that Halo's success is down to a series of happy accidents.

Good point considering the direction of every installment since...

 

A scary thought to think that we have to wait for an accident.

 

Will we ever have another console friendly competitive fps again :'(

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It doesn't matter if it was an accident, it doesn't mean we can't replicate the same thing again, it's right there just do it. How it was made literally means nothing.

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Hardy's blogs are general dev-speak. They do not go into detail on the competitive intricacies of H1 that we recognize today, in fact they really don't even touch on them. Nowhere does he remark on the significance of the pistol's TTK, the idea of large amounts of reticule mag vs. low amounts of bullet mag, the restricted but fulfilling sandbox, static weapon timers and what that does for map flow, asymmetrical maps with large emphasis on verticality, etc.

 

Like it or not, a lot of H1 was an accident.

id have to search my twitter, but i did tweet him once and asked about the pistol 3sk and he said was intentionally designed to be that way.

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I'm really interested to see where this game is at on the most played games list about a month from now.

 

#4?

 

Probably #3, below Blops and Battefront.

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It doesn't matter if it was an accident, it doesn't mean we can't replicate the same thing again, it's right there just do it. How it was made literally means nothing.

Someone can but apparently they're not willing yet. It boggles my mind, it was the perfect blend for both casuals and hard core people. Sounds like a cash cow to me.

 

I don't get why developers seem to believe those two can't coexist in the same sandbox they did 17 years ago.

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I'm really interested to see where this game is at on the most played games list about a month from now.

 

#4?

Remember Fallout 4, Tomb Raider, Star Wars Black Ops, FIFA, GTA, Destiny. I think it'll be in 8-10 range

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