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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I disagree. When it comes to a weapon sandbox, I believe that having a more diverse set makes more sense.

 

For instance, let's look at the BR, the DMR, and the Light Rifle.

 

The BR occupies the medium ranged niche, but has potential for long range.

 

The DMR occupies the long ranged niche, but has potential for medium range.

 

The Light Rifle also occupies the long ranged niche. Unlike the DMR, its medium ranged potential is a lower, but its more effective at its niche.

 

In a map like Blood Gulch, the DMR and Light Rifle would work well, but not the BR. The open sightlines from the cliffs and the large distance gaps limit much of the combat to long range. Although the Battle Rifle can certainly perform, it isn't an optimal choice.

 

In Valhalla, which is smaller than Blood Gulch but has more natural cover, fights tend to gravitate towards medium ranged encounters. Here, the Battle Rifle and the DMR would both perform well, but not the Light Rifle. The Light Rifle's strengths come from being able to take shots at an enemy from a safe distance. Valhalla doesn't have many areas with long-ranged sightlines like Blood Gulch does. There's the cliff, but at that range, the DMR is still effective.

 

In a small map like Chill Out, there aren't any long-ranged sightlines. The map is segmented and most, if not all fights occur at close and medium range. Only the BR would work on this map.

 

Then we have Hang 'Em High (the CE one, not the Reach one), which would be interesting to see. With its open sightlines and plenty of close to medium ranged encounters, it looks like it'd be a good BR (maybe Carbine) and Light Rifle map. Like with Blood Gulch and the BR, the DMR can work, but the other two weapons would likely do a better job.

 

All I'm saying is, there are certain maps where a single utility weapon wouldn't be ideal. This is where having a diverse sandbox has its advantages.

 

For instance, one problem Halo Reach had was that the DMR's range was too long. There are some maps that would've really benefited from having a shorter-ranged utility rifle.

If Halo CE can play perfectly fine with having one utility weapon(aka the pistol) in the game then I don't see any problem with Halo 5 being able to do it also.

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words

 

kvbOAQh.png?1

 

Also forgot to mention there's going to be different tiers of all those weapons, so multiply each category by three.

 

 

IMO having multiple variations of the same weapon( pistol, BR, DMR, LR, and Car) makes the sandbox bland and boring to use. Also it seems like you don't understand the importance of having a utility weapon in Halo but lets save that dicussion for another time.

 

For me it just feels dumb to have a game with alien weapons...only for them to be reskinned, slightly altered versions of the human weapons.

 

In Ce the Plasma Rifle was basically an accurate Assault Rifle with Stun and Headshot mechanics, and the AR was basically what the SMG is now.  Two completely different weapons.

 

In Halo 2 you just have SMG and Blue-SMG.

In Halo 4 you have SMG, Blue-SMG, and Orange-SMG.

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he's playing luke cage for the netflix show "Luke cage".

Pretty big acting break for him.

 

Batch said all that shit when he was a teenager who hadn't become part of the Halo 1 master race yet.

H1 is life.

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That's exactly my point, there is no real utility weapon in Halo 5 because they're all niche situational weapons that are cluttering the sandbox. Look I already got into a similar argument on here not too long ago so I'm going to keep it short and right to the point so I don't end up sounding like a broken record. If Halo 5 had a utility weapon similar to Halo CE's pistol then there wouldn't be any need to have multiple utility weapons(pistol, BR, DMR, LR, and Car) in the game because that utility weapon would already fill those roles. Getting rid of the multiple utility weapons that are cluttering the sandbox and condensing it into one good utility weapon would allow for more room for better and more unique niche situational weapons to be made and to be able to shine in the sandbox. IMO having multiple variations of the same weapon( pistol, BR, DMR, LR, and Car) makes the sandbox bland and boring to use.

First of all, let's not pretend that having a single utility weapon will solve all the problems with the sandbox, because it won't.

 

Halo Reach's long-ranged DMR is a perfect example of what happens when you only have one utility weapon and it isn't balanced well.

 

Next, let's talk about your idea. You claim that removing these weapons "would allow for more room for better and more unique niche situational weapons to be made and to be able to shine in the sandbox". However, that conclusion is flawed because these new weapons wouldn't occupy the niche that the removed weapons would.

 

That's like arguing that removing the Carbine would allow the Brute Shot, a "more unique niche situational weapon" to replace it, when in reality, the two serve different purposes.

 

Furthermore, all that would do is litter the map with a single "utility" weapon that serves as a jack-of-all-trades weapon, which in turn limits the sandbox. I don't know about you, but I enjoy the rock paper scissors element of gun-play of Halo 5.

 

This also gets back into the first problem, how do you balance such a weapon without either making it too powerful or too weak? In this case, there are clear benefits to having multiple utility weapons.

 

The BR, the Carbine, the Light Rifle, and the Magnum may serve the same purpose, but each behaves very differently and has its own niche, typically relating to its effective range.

 

 

For a good example of this, look at TF2.

 

The Spy has 4 Revolvers: his default one, one that crits on headshots, one that does extra damage, one that stores cloak on-hit, and one that stores crits after destroying a building.

 

Each Revolver is fundamentally the same weapon with different abilities, however, each allows for very different tactics, serving their own niche.

 

 

For another example, look at CS:GO.

 

For simplicity's sake, let's say there are three classes of Assault Rifles: economy, standard, and scoped.

 

The standard picks, the AK-47 and the M4A4, are almost always seen in play. If we followed your logic, the other two classes should be removed because they aren't common picks.

 

However, they are kept in-game for a reason. They each serve their own niche. For instance, in spite of its cheaper price, one of the economy rifles, the Galil, has a very distinct behavior. It acts like a more controllable AK-47. Its counterpart, the FAMAS, is completely different from it, in that it is the only burst-fired rifle in the game. The two scoped weapons have the benefit of having higher first-shot accuracy bonuses, making them good for head-shots.

 

 

I understand the point you're trying to make, but I disagree with how you want to go through with it. I understand the attraction of having a single useful utility weapon, but I also understand its disadvantages.

 

Your logic hinges on the assumption that the weapons are simple "variations" of each other when they're not.

 

Each weapon is unique in its handling and its niche.

 

Also it seems like you don't understand the importance of having a utility weapon in Halo but lets save that dicussion for another time.

There's no need to make false assumptions, nor is there a reason to be condescending.

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You're oversimplifying it. There are more categories than that.

 

The SMG's niche is close range.

 

The Assault Rifle, and I'm assuming the Storm Rifle as well, has a niche of medium range with close range potential.

 

There's not enough information on the Boltshot and Suppressor to make a claim yet.

 

The Magnum's niche is as a medium ranged precision weapon with potential for both close and far range.

 

The Battle Rifle's niche is as a medium ranged precision weapon with potential (more than the Magnum) for far range.

 

The DMR is a long ranged precision weapon with medium ranged potential.

 

The Light Rifle serves as a long ranged ranged precision weapon. It's worse at medium range than the DMR, so in this regard, it can be considered a "true" long-ranged weapon.

 

The Beam, Binary, and Sniper Rifles are power weapons.

 

(Note: Potential = the weapon can perform at that range. It's just not optimal.)

 

 

 

Also forgot to mention there's going to be different tiers of all those weapons, so multiply each category by three.

"REQ" variants don't matter in the grand scheme of things. I'm pretty sure this discussion is about Arena balance, not Warzone.

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"DMR Range minus five feet" is not it's own niche.

"Suppressor Range plus five feet" is not its own niche.

 

Close, Medium, and Long range are what qualify as being niches.

 

I'm not oversimplifying shit.  You're being blind to obvious redundancy.

 

 


The DMR is a long ranged precision weapon with medium ranged potential.

 

The Light Rifle serves as a long ranged ranged precision weapon. It's worse at medium range than the DMR, so in this regard, it can be considered a "true" long-ranged weapon.

 

Like, what even is this bullshit?  At long range, the DMR's intended range, the LR is the superior weapon.  All adding weapons like the DMR does is create convoluted rock-paper-scissors-grass-dogshit-stapler-whatever between a million pointless weapons.  LR beats DMR beats Carbine beats BR beats AR beats so on.

 

One weapon per one actual niche is enough.

 

 

 

That's like arguing that removing the Carbine would allow the Brute Shot, a "more unique niche situational weapon" to replace it, when in reality, the two serve different purposes.

 

This is the one and only point I agree with.

 

I don't support having a million redundant weapons, but I agree that having a million redundant weapons doesn't make it necessarily impossible for unique guns to exist.

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@@Sal1ent Could you explain why you decided to keep H:Reach/Halo 4's Vehicle health system, instead of using like Halo 3's in Halo 5 ?

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@@Sal1ent Could you explain why you decided to keep H:Reach/Halo 4's Vehicle health system, instead of using like Halo 3's in Halo 5 ?

 

Did they? Halo Reach & 4 are still the only games where I see people pick up the Sniper Rifle more-so than the Rocket Launcher for an anti-vehicle weapon. People used to rush to vehicles after the spawn, but in Reach, many would never touch the Warthog because the DMR wrecked it from any range. It was a death trap. The same goes for the Banshee. The only useful vehicles now are the Wraith and Scorpion. Everything else gets demolished too quickly.

 

This doesn't get discussed too much here because it's mainly a change for BTB, but I remember that BTB communities weren't happy about the changes. It got rid of a lot of the charm that Halo BTB matches had; using teamwork to destroy a Warthog before they fuck shit up. Now it's just "guys shoot at it with your primary, oh wait nvm it's dead."

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@@Sal1ent Could you explain why you decided to keep H:Reach/Halo 4's Vehicle health system, instead of using like Halo 3's in Halo 5 ?

Because that would be bungie's work  :kappa: 

 

 

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Did they? Halo Reach & 4 are still the only games where I see people pick up the Sniper Rifle more-so than the Rocket Launcher for an anti-vehicle weapon. People used to rush to vehicles after the spawn, but in Reach, many would never touch the Warthog because the DMR wrecked it from any range. It was a death trap. The same goes for the Banshee. The only useful vehicles now are the Wraith and Scorpion. Everything else gets demolished too quickly.

 

This doesn't get discussed too much here because it's mainly a change for BTB, but I remember that BTB communities weren't happy about the changes. It got rid of a lot of the charm that Halo BTB matches had; using teamwork to destroy a Warthog before they fuck shit up. Now it's just "guys shoot at it with your primary, oh wait nvm it's dead."

 

H2 and H3's system is equally bad. Being invincible in a vehicle unless the opponent has a Rocket/Laser/Bruteshot is stupid, especially when coupled with H2's weapon spawn system (Banshee pilot carrying rockets = gg)

 

They need to take H4's system and buff the vehicle health, they already did this from Reach-4, but not enough. The much bigger problem is that players will again be able to spawn with plasma pistols and plasma grenades in Warzone, which completely fucks over any established vehicle balance.

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H2 and H3's system is equally bad. Being invincible in a vehicle unless the opponent has a Rocket/Laser/Bruteshot is stupid, especially when coupled with H2's weapon spawn system (Banshee pilot carrying rockets = gg)

 

They need to take H4's system and buff the vehicle health, they already did this from Reach-4, but not enough. The much bigger problem is that players will again be able to spawn with plasma pistols and plasma grenades in Warzone, which completely fucks over any established vehicle balance.

Halo 3 had better BTB play than Halo 2 simply because of the weapon pool. The Spartan Laser, Missle Pod, and Spike Grenade made vehicles more bearable for people on foot. I'm not saying it was perfect, but it is better than Reach & H4 when it was flipped upside down. And yes, starting off with plasma pistols and plasma grenades gutted BTB in Halo 4. I think you have to spend the points, or whatever they call them, to get that in Warzone, so I don't think there will be a problem of too many people having a plasma pistol/grenade on them since they will be sacrificing getting the BR/DMR early. The vehicle health system from Reach/4 needs to be completely reworked though.

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Holmes said a while ago that the aim for H5 was AR/Pistol starts and everyone is up in arms about it. With the recent talk about how the Pistol is meant to be the best since CE and how it is a 5SK, etc, people are upset.

 

People want a more powerful pistol, blah blah.

 

Sweet, thanks for the explanation and the depression.

 

I was actually getting a little excited about Halo 5 and now I'm back to not caring.

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Depends what it is, I'd rent a house, I wouldn't rent a TV.

maybe it's different depending where you live and i know it becoming less of a thing but there is the option of renting a game from a video store isn't there? i wouldn't rent a tv, but renting games used to be common place.

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First of all, let's not pretend that having a single utility weapon will solve all the problems with the sandbox, because it won't.

 

Halo Reach's long-ranged DMR is a perfect example of what happens when you only have one utility weapon and it isn't balanced well.

 

Next, let's talk about your idea. You claim that removing these weapons "would allow for more room for better and more unique niche situational weapons to be made and to be able to shine in the sandbox". However, that conclusion is flawed because these new weapons wouldn't occupy the niche that the removed weapons would.

 

That's like arguing that removing the Carbine would allow the Brute Shot, a "more unique niche situational weapon" to replace it, when in reality, the two serve different purposes.

 

Furthermore, all that would do is litter the map with a single "utility" weapon that serves as a jack-of-all-trades weapon, which in turn limits the sandbox. I don't know about you, but I enjoy the rock paper scissors element of gun-play of Halo 5.

 

This also gets back into the first problem, how do you balance such a weapon without either making it too powerful or too weak? In this case, there are clear benefits to having multiple utility weapons.

 

The BR, the Carbine, the Light Rifle, and the Magnum may serve the same purpose, but each behaves very differently and has its own niche, typically relating to its effective range.

 

 

For a good example of this, look at TF2.

 

The Spy has 4 Revolvers: his default one, one that crits on headshots, one that does extra damage, one that stores cloak on-hit, and one that stores crits after destroying a building.

 

Each Revolver is fundamentally the same weapon with different abilities, however, each allows for very different tactics, serving their own niche.

 

 

For another example, look at CS:GO.

 

For simplicity's sake, let's say there are three classes of Assault Rifles: economy, standard, and scoped.

 

The standard picks, the AK-47 and the M4A4, are almost always seen in play. If we followed your logic, the other two classes should be removed because they aren't common picks.

 

However, they are kept in-game for a reason. They each serve their own niche. For instance, in spite of its cheaper price, one of the economy rifles, the Galil, has a very distinct behavior. It acts like a more controllable AK-47. Its counterpart, the FAMAS, is completely different from it, in that it is the only burst-fired rifle in the game. The two scoped weapons have the benefit of having higher first-shot accuracy bonuses, making them good for head-shots.

 

 

I understand the point you're trying to make, but I disagree with how you want to go through with it. I understand the attraction of having a single useful utility weapon, but I also understand its disadvantages.

 

Your logic hinges on the assumption that the weapons are simple "variations" of each other when they're not.

 

Each weapon is unique in its handling and its niche.

 

There's no need to make false assumptions, nor is there a reason to be condescending.

First off I said a utility weapon similar to Halo CE's pistol not Halo Reach's DMR so I don't know where you got that misconception from. The utility weapon would be a projectile weapon that is hard to master, it would have a fast optimal TTK but a longer average TTK.(This would require for the other weapons in the sandbox to become projectile also.) Players wouldn't be able to automatically cross map you because it would take skill to use and players would have to lead their shots. The balance of the gun would come from how hard it is for players to use and master. What I meant by saying that condensing the utility's weapons down to one good utility weapon would allow for other niche situational weapons in the sandbox to shine is that since the map wouldn't be cluttered with utility weapons any more then the map can have a nice variety of other unique niche situational weapons on it. The niche situational weapons wouldn't fill the role of the missing utility weapons because that would be the new utility weapon's( referring to the utility weapon that is similar to the Halo CE pistol) job to do so. Your point about maps being cluttered with the utility weapon is invalid because there would only be a scarce amount of them on the map since you already spawn with it. A good example of this is in Halo CE on the map "Chillout", there is only two utility weapons(pistols) on the map and they both spawn in the bottom of "rocket room" next to "double doors". The CS and TF2 examples were pointless since they are completely different FPS games from Halo and they don't share the same type of FPS sub genre as Halo. Halo is a arena FPS not a class base or tactical shooter, the weapon sandbox doesn't need redundancy in it. My final conclusion is that I don't have enough cognitive dissonance to be able to view the pistol, BR, DMR, LR, and Car as their own guns separate from each other, I view them as different variations of the same weapon all linked together that make the sandbox overall more bland. I don't see much of a difference from dropping my pistol to pick up a DMR because they pretty function the same way expect for the distance that they can shoot. This is why I find the sandbox to be boring, I drop a gun to use a different gun but that gun is basically the same weapon as the other one that I just dropped. How boring and bland is that? Anyways I'm growing tiresome of this pointless back and forth argument so I'm done talking about this subject. If you want to know more about my perspective on this subject then feel free to reread my earlier posts on it. Oh by the way about me being "condescending" towards you, it's just your own interpretation of my posts so think about that for a second.

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First of all, let's not pretend that having a single utility weapon will solve all the problems with the sandbox, because it won't.

 

Halo Reach's long-ranged DMR is a perfect example of what happens when you only have one utility weapon and it isn't balanced well.

 

Next, let's talk about your idea. You claim that removing these weapons "would allow for more room for better and more unique niche situational weapons to be made and to be able to shine in the sandbox". However, that conclusion is flawed because these new weapons wouldn't occupy the niche that the removed weapons would.

 

That's like arguing that removing the Carbine would allow the Brute Shot, a "more unique niche situational weapon" to replace it, when in reality, the two serve different purposes.

 

Furthermore, all that would do is litter the map with a single "utility" weapon that serves as a jack-of-all-trades weapon, which in turn limits the sandbox. I don't know about you, but I enjoy the rock paper scissors element of gun-play of Halo 5.

 

This also gets back into the first problem, how do you balance such a weapon without either making it too powerful or too weak? In this case, there are clear benefits to having multiple utility weapons.

 

The BR, the Carbine, the Light Rifle, and the Magnum may serve the same purpose, but each behaves very differently and has its own niche, typically relating to its effective range.

 

 

For a good example of this, look at TF2.

 

The Spy has 4 Revolvers: his default one, one that crits on headshots, one that does extra damage, one that stores cloak on-hit, and one that stores crits after destroying a building.

 

Each Revolver is fundamentally the same weapon with different abilities, however, each allows for very different tactics, serving their own niche.

 

 

For another example, look at CS:GO.

 

For simplicity's sake, let's say there are three classes of Assault Rifles: economy, standard, and scoped.

 

The standard picks, the AK-47 and the M4A4, are almost always seen in play. If we followed your logic, the other two classes should be removed because they aren't common picks.

 

However, they are kept in-game for a reason. They each serve their own niche. For instance, in spite of its cheaper price, one of the economy rifles, the Galil, has a very distinct behavior. It acts like a more controllable AK-47. Its counterpart, the FAMAS, is completely different from it, in that it is the only burst-fired rifle in the game. The two scoped weapons have the benefit of having higher first-shot accuracy bonuses, making them good for head-shots.

 

 

I understand the point you're trying to make, but I disagree with how you want to go through with it. I understand the attraction of having a single useful utility weapon, but I also understand its disadvantages.

 

Your logic hinges on the assumption that the weapons are simple "variations" of each other when they're not.

 

Each weapon is unique in its handling and its niche.

 

There's no need to make false assumptions, nor is there a reason to be condescending.

BTW I enjoy having a rich and diverse sandbox for FPS games that has a variety of niche situational weapons that have their own unique qualities. I don't want Halo 5's sandbox the same way you want it though. I don't want the sandbox being diluted with redundant weapons. Just my perspective though.

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Everybody is talking about Weapons setting and I'm just here sitting waiting for this answer from  :holmes:

- Will there be a change with the headshot "pop" sound? You get a medal for a headshot as well as the sound why both? 

or will there be an option to turn it off in the menu settings?

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"DMR Range minus five feet" is not it's own niche.

"Suppressor Range plus five feet" is not its own niche.

 

Close, Medium, and Long range are what qualify as being niches.

 

I'm not oversimplifying shit.  You're being blind to obvious redundancy.

 

 

 

Like, what even is this bullshit?  At long range, the DMR's intended range, the LR is the superior weapon.  All adding weapons like the DMR does is create convoluted rock-paper-scissors-grass-dogshit-stapler-whatever between a million pointless weapons.  LR beats DMR beats Carbine beats BR beats AR beats so on.

 

One weapon per one actual niche is enough.

 

As a Forger (albeit, not a great one), I want to ask you something.

 

What happens when the designated "niche" weapon isn't what I need?

 

For instance, imagine that I'm building a map based around long-ranged encounters. Ordinarily, I'd place down a DMR and a Light Rifle. However, if the two are condensed into the Sniper Rifle, now what?

 

Alternatively, the DMR is designated as the "niche" weapon. However, a problem still remains. There are no worthy pick-up weapons except the Sniper Rifle, which is too powerful treat like a common weapon.

 

 

Let me ask you another question. Why does it matter if there are multiple weapons that fulfill the same niche?

 

Halo 5 isn't COD.

 

Players cannot choose what weapons spawn. That is completely up to the map's design.

 

Players don't get to decide "oh, I like the Light Rifle over the DMR, I'll just use the Light Rifle every game".

 

There needs to be a Light Rifle on the map if they want to pick it up.

 

In other words, redundancy will be a non-issue so long as the map designer decides not to place down one of literally every weapon.

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maybe it's different depending where you live and i know it becoming less of a thing but there is the option of renting a game from a video store isn't there? i wouldn't rent a tv, but renting games used to be common place.

 

I guess that's true. I play very little games (as in I usually only play 1-3 different games) but I play a lot of them. I don't bother with a game unless it's going to soak up a lot of time.

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I guess that's true. I play very little games (as in I usually only play 1-3 different games) but I play a lot of them. I don't bother with a game unless it's going to soak up a lot of time.

Same. I only play 2 games on a regular basis: Halo and Pokemon. I rarely play the campaign/story mode anymore though, just online because I like to compete. Sometimes I'll play Minecraft or Skyrim, but I lose interest fairly quickly. I'm not creative enough to stay entertained playing Minecraft for long (even with the Halo texture pack), and Skyrim is just not as much fun as I thought it would be. I had a blast playing it for about 6 weeks, got bored and stopped playing it altogether (360 version, so no mods).

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BTW I enjoy having a rich and diverse sandbox for FPS games that has a variety of niche situational weapons that have their own unique qualities. I don't want Halo 5's sandbox the same way you want it though. I don't want the sandbox being diluted with redundant weapons. Just my perspective though.

It's clear that both you and I want a rich and diverse sandbox, and the both of us value the importance of a utility weapon.

 

However, what you're suggesting is to take the Battle Rifle, the Carbine, the DMR, and the Light Rifle and to delete them from the game and add a utility weapon that serves all of their purposes. This is what I disagree with.

 

A buffed Magnum and intelligent map placement would completely eliminate all of the redundancy issues without removing options for people who want them.

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Did they? Halo Reach & 4 are still the only games where I see people pick up the Sniper Rifle more-so than the Rocket Launcher for an anti-vehicle weapon. People used to rush to vehicles after the spawn, but in Reach, many would never touch the Warthog because the DMR wrecked it from any range. It was a death trap. The same goes for the Banshee. The only useful vehicles now are the Wraith and Scorpion. Everything else gets demolished too quickly.

 

That system worked for the banshee, because the Reach banshee was the ultimate glass cannon. It was fast and agile as shit and had insane weapons, but it was fragile even by Reach standards. I loved it, I'd take that banshee in any future BTB sandbox. But most other people don't like the idea of vehicles having skill gaps so everyone whined that it was overpowered and posted some Gamesager video as some sort of lame proof.

 

What Bungie did to the warthog in Reach was fucking disgraceful, though. As was 343's choice to carry on with it.

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That was offensive.

 

(For those that missed the references here, they are to Mendicant Bias and Offensive Bias respectively).

Would have +repped if you hadn't explained it for the mouth breathers

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Just realized the only gametype that has crazy things happening in it will be Warzone.

 

Which means regular BTB will be much more balanced considering we don't have the power to spawn with Plasma Pistols and Plasma Grenades.

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I'm at the point now where if a games story intrigues me I'll just watch a play through on Youtube and skip a lot of the actual gameplay.

 

Games like COD are a prime example where I'll just pretty much watch the cutscenes and small amounts of the gameplay because it's all pretty much the same anyway.

 

Hell I'll even just read the story on a wiki page. Saves me time AND money.

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Would have +repped if you hadn't explained it for the mouth breathers

 

My apologies; I will endeavor to be better at making maps in the future.

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