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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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As for the BR clip I posted, it is evidence of the insane amount of bullet magnetism the BR has, which translates to an increased ease-of-use at range. The reticle wasn't even red and the bullets connected. It flashes red for a split second AFTER the player is done shooting.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au7KE9xUVTk

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And obviously I don't support sprint. I am just saying that because it is in the game there won't be camping in the way you are describing. Sprint destroys map control (again not a theory, we have seen this in action) unless you have a weapon effective at killing the sprinter.

 

Is removing sprint even an option? Because it wasn't in Halo 4. Even it is, people will probably make it part of competitive settings anyway "for spectator appeal" just like the reasoning for spawning with an AR. 

 

And if we do remove sprint, then what is all this "out of the box" bullshit people are talking about? Removing sprint is way more impactful than removing the AR and I am not even suggesting to remove it. Just not spawn with it when there are better spawning weapons available.  

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No I'm down for pistol starts if the pistol feels better than the BR. I'm open for anything really. I just enjoyed the beta BR more than the beta pistol by a long shot. I think a pistol buff will help but I'm not sure it'll be as enjoyable. I won't know until I try out both in the final game. I may be in the minority but I loved the way BR starts played in the beta. I hate that the aim magnetism is so high but that's easily fixed before launch. I still regularly play H1 and enjoy each game in the series to some degree. Halo 1 pistol is hands down my favorite weapon but I find that I have more fun with the Halo 2/2A BR or Halo 3 on LAN. I really don't care what the default settings are set to. Even if I don't like the weapon I can always find a BR on map easily. I think the game needs to be the same in both casual and competitive settings so viewers and less competitive players can still follow the gameplay on stream. However, I would rather see a BR aim magnetism nerf with AR secondaries than AR/Pistol as of now. Maybe I will be swayed by the pistol buff. Who knows.

 

For the record, I agree with you. I enjoyed the BR more as well. But my hope is that I would also enjoy a buffed pistol, enough for that to be the starting weapon because like you said, I think having gameplay between casual/competitive play be more closely related would help build Halo as an eSport.

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I keep hearing about a pistol buff. Link? How much is it buffed? Does it actually have ammo now? Is it a 4sk?

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I keep hearing about a pistol buff. Link? How much is it buffed? Does it actually have ammo now? Is it a 4sk?

 

I think it's more of a hypothetical buff. What a lot of us would like to see happen.

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I think it's more of a hypothetical buff. What a lot of us would like to see happen.

If that is the case, I bet 343i is going to nerf it. Every time we have hoped for something in the past it has backfired on release day. 

 

Anybody else remember "Sage Merill is putting the Shadowrun rifle in Reach!"

 

 

 

@Sal1ent said the Pistol was currently beating BR in 343 pro team matches.

 

EDIT: Nevermind (unless they think that now the pistol is OP and decide to nerf it). 

 

I didn't know that tidbit. Thanks. 

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If that is the case, I bet 343i is going to nerf it. Every time we have hoped for something in the past it has backfired on release day. 

 

Anybody else remember "Sage Merill is putting the Shadowrun rifle in Reach!"

 

 

EDIT: Nevermind (unless they think that now the pistol is OP and decide to nerf it). 

 

I didn't know that tidbit. Thanks. 

 

 

 

Since the beta we've been retuning and buffing the magnum. We want to make it a viable precision counterpart to the AR, yet don't want it to be so powerful that players simply rely on it in the majority of situations and never trade it out. When I talked to Chris King yesterday (Chris is the lead designer over sandbox) he pointed out that it has been beating the BR in recent pro team tests, which feels a little too strong. We're still honing the balance. 

 

 

From this very thread.

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From this very thread.

 

Didn't read the whole thread. It was 6 pages in when I joined, which is the first time I have seriously posted on this forum in over 2 months. 

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That being said, we still don't know the applications or specifics of this buff or whether it will stay this way by launch. For all we know, the "buff" could be that it has ridiculous bullet magnetism now if it is a buff at all that is causing it to beat the BR out. It might just be that the BR is 5sk again or has lost most of it's bullet magnetism and that the buffs themselves are actually small. I have found that being skeptical with 343i is usually much more likely to be correct than being optimistic even when they flat out promise something good (anybody play MCC lately?). That being said, I am much more open to Pistol starts as an idea if it does turn out to be a decent utility weapon. 

 

EDIT: In fact to be honest, if it were a 4sk with no other changes it is objectively the better way to go, even if it makes the BR and DMR useless. 

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That being said, we still don't know the applications or specifics of this buff or whether it will stay this way by launch. For all we know, the "buff" could be that it has ridiculous bullet magnetism now if it is a buff at all that is causing it to beat the BR out. It might just be that the BR is 5sk again or has lost most of it's bullet magnetism and that the buffs themselves are actually small. I have found that being skeptical with 343i is usually much more likely to be correct than being optimistic even when they flat out promise something good (anybody play MCC lately?). That being said, I am much more open to Pistol starts as an idea if it does turn out to be a decent utility weapon. 

 

EDIT: In fact to be honest, if it were a 4sk with no other changes it is objectively the better way to go, even if it makes the BR and DMR useless. 

 

I think by not reading the whole thread you missed out on a lot of the arguments and context put forth regarding why some of us are so adamant that AR/Pistol would be healthier for the game than electing for the BR.

 

Though part of it is still a fundamental disagreement of principles -- you and I disagree over what the effective engagement range for a player off spawn should be (as evidenced by your support of the pre-nerf Halo 4 DMR).  I think short/medium should be the default engage ranges, and wishing to fight past medium range should merit picking up a different weapon.  That said, I consider "medium" range to be the approximate equivalent to the BR's scoped Red Reticule Range from Halo 4 (which was like 60m or 20 Forge units).  I think in that range, the Pistol and BR should be on almost even footing, and beyond that the BR should have a slight edge -- while the DMR is even easier to use / land shots with at that range.)

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There is hatred because the DEVs try to appease only one side....

 

I wouldn't say that. There are many reasons why our community is split.

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I think by not reading the whole thread you missed out on a lot of the arguments and context put forth regarding why some of us are so adamant that AR/Pistol would be healthier for the game than electing for the BR.

 

Though part of it is still a fundamental disagreement of principles -- you and I disagree over what the effective engagement range for a player off spawn should be (as evidenced by your support of the pre-nerf Halo 4 DMR).  I think short/medium should be the default engage ranges, and wishing to fight past medium range should merit picking up a different weapon.  That said, I consider "medium" range to be the approximate equivalent to the BR's scoped Red Reticule Range from Halo 4 (which was like 60m or 20 Forge units).  I think in that range, the Pistol and BR should be on almost even footing, and beyond that the BR should have a slight edge -- while the DMR is even easier to use / land shots with at that range.)

I supported the pre nerf halo 4 DMR because the BR was a 5 shot kill with almost as much spread as the Halo 3 BR and a kill time of about 1.8 seconds IIRC (essentially the slowest TTK of any primary weapon we have ever used) in a game with sprint which necessitates faster kill times to compensate. 

 

I didn't like the DMR because of it's effective range. I didn't like it at all. I liked it more than a nerf gun. When 4sk BR came out, I supported it over DMR because it was objectively the better utility weapon despite random spread. If I had then wouldn't I be supporting DMR start for Halo 5? 

 

Utility and time to kill are the most important factors for me because I think they are the most important factors for Halo. That's why I think Pistol/BR is the correct choice. It maximizes kill time more than picking either alone and maximizes effective utility. 

 

However, spawning people with a spray and pray to get spectator appeal is what everybody else is arguing it seems. 

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I could've sworn I saw the Carbine in the Beta build for the Sprint vids, and I KNOW the Shotgun was there (but it's not in the Beta... at least I don't remember seeing it). Can anyone tell me why they left out all the other guns? Don't tell me it's a "UNSC Only" thing because the Lightrifle, and Energy Sword were both in the Beta.

 

Sorry if it's a dumb question. I know that they probably didn't have time (or just didn't want to reveal the weapons) to add in everything, but I would've expected the only Beta of Halo 5 to at least have included most of the things we use to kill each other with (except Vehicles 'n shit).

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I supported the pre nerf halo 4 DMR because the BR was a 5 shot kill with almost as much spread as the Halo 3 BR and a kill time of about 1.8 seconds IIRC (essentially the slowest TTK of any primary weapon we have ever used) in a game with sprint which necessitates faster kill times to compensate. 

 

I didn't like the DMR because of it's effective range. I didn't like it at all. I liked it more than a nerf gun. 

 

The pre-buff unscoped BR also had a 100% 5SK rate if you aimed at the chest so the top of the circle was covering Master Chief's chin -- spread would not take effect if you aimed at the chest, rather than the head.  Granted, that's not an entirely practical application, and I agree Spread was lame, but in terms of a few bullets missing versus being able to accurately land shots across any map without much effort at all, I think the former feels better.  (I was Team Orange, but I also supported testing automatics as secondaries, but everyone cried when they couldn't kill an automatic user before their own death in close quarters.)

 

To me, although it was worse on paper, the BR felt better for Team Throwdown settings than the DMR did, even before the weapon rebalance patch.

 

 

 

 

ARs are -less- Spray and Pray now that they have a headshot modifier, as well, so there is that.  I'm not one to push heavily for the automatics, but I think they should be included -before- cut, to see how they affect the gameplay.  People who kneejerk after blindly running around one corner and getting sprayed down and demand the gun be cut from the game should think more about their positional errors.  People who blindly run around the corner and manage to turn and reaction 5-spam Pistol headshots to take down the AR user might be frustrated, but realize the AR isn't ultimately unhealthy for the game.  It's just different than what they've been used to for the last 4 titles, since there was no skill or finesse required for automatics as they had no area-related damage.

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That is how it works in SnD currently, correct. I actually don't like that it does that though. Every tourney or league allows players to communicate after death and so not reflecting that in the game just doesn't make sense to me. 

 

Death cam does sound OP though.

This. It's funny how in vanilla SnD you can view players 3rd person, but can't hear teammates--they have things ass backwards from competitive. Although it is a better combination than 3rd person spectating and being able to hear teammates, I suppose--but regardless locked to 1st person spectating and being able to communicate (to just your team) would be the best way to go about it.

 

I only bring up SnD to reinforce the idea that it's pretty unanimous in 1 life gametypes (I believe in CS, too) you can't see things your teammate can't and call them out for him.

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I could've sworn I saw the Carbine in the Beta build for the Sprint vids, and I KNOW the Shotgun was there (but it's not in the Beta... at least I don't remember seeing it). Can anyone tell me why they left out all the other guns? Don't tell me it's a "UNSC Only" thing because the Lightrifle, and Energy Sword were both in the Beta.

 

Sorry if it's a dumb question. I know that they probably didn't have time (or just didn't want to reveal the weapons) to add in everything, but I would've expected the only Beta of Halo 5 to at least have included most of the things we use to kill each other with (except Vehicles 'n shit).

I recall somebody(I believe Josh) stated that a lot of them weren't in presentable condition yet, a lot of which had to do with them not feeling that they were balanced enough for large-scale testing in the beta.

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The pre-buff unscoped BR also had a 100% 5SK rate if you aimed at the chest so the top of the circle was covering Master Chief's chin -- spread would not take effect if you aimed at the chest, rather than the head.  Granted, that's not an entirely practical application, and I agree Spread was lame, but in terms of a few bullets missing versus being able to accurately land shots across any map without much effort at all, I think the former feels better.  (I was Team Orange, but I also supported testing automatics as secondaries, but everyone cried when they couldn't kill an automatic user before their own death in close quarters.)

 

To me, although it was worse on paper, the BR felt better for Team Throwdown settings than the DMR did, even before the weapon rebalance patch.

Again, the randomness was a small factor. Again, my main concerns are kill time and utility. 

 

Also, I invented orange (not so different after all eh?) and supported automatic secondaries as far back as Halo 2 (the idea being to have something to button combo with off spawn) and Halo 3 (the idea being AR would be used when you ran out of ammo). 

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As much as I'd want the Halo 3 EXP x skill model back, I think Halo 5 can pull it off as long as the system motivates win (E.G. a win should provide about double the base score for finishing a game) and if we have doubleXP weekends. 

 

Also, there should be no hard XP cap, so your XP just keeps growing forever and remains visible to all on the service record. Would be even better if the SR ranks scale with the XP as well (though it'd require a linear formula; not sure if Halo 5 uses one). Halo 4's Doritos and Mountain Dew progression system wasn't that bad, but once you reached 130, you were 100% done and that was the main gripe I had with it. Reach, at least, kept progressing past max rank -- however, people were not able to see others' progress past Inheritor, something I considered a problem.

 

So, to make it work, just keep making it scale at the same rate forever with no hard cap on XP. I'm sure it'll be impressive once someone hits like... 100M XP or something ridiculous.

 

I agree that incentivizing winning is important, you have to be careful because if a win is worth 2x finishing a game, many people would quit games if it looks like they may lose in order to find a winning game faster. In my opinion there needs to be severe quit penalties. What I want is a system that results in a 5 minute ban for a quit that stacks. So the 2nd quit would be 10 mins, 5th would be 25 minutes, 50th would be 250 minutes. And i don't believe this should be reset any more than annually. I'll caveat that with saying if someone on your team quits you shouldn't be penalized for quitting after them. Im not a programmer or network person, but I'd imagine you can tell the difference between a dashboard quit, a normal quit, and disconnect, and then code for that.

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Again, the randomness was a small factor. Again, my main concerns are kill time and utility. 

 

Also, I invented orange (not so different after all eh?) and supported automatic secondaries as far back as Halo 2 (the idea being to have something to button combo with off spawn) and Halo 3 (the idea being AR would be used when you ran out of ammo). 

 

I was the one who convinced Eric to test Storm Rifles in early versions.

 

I still stand by that recommendation after Assault Rifles got vetoed due to being too easy to use.  Since Storm Rifle was still a fast kill time, but had visible projectiles that players could actually dodge in CQC to come out ahead with their utilityguns.

 

 

 

But my main argument for Halo 5 is in favor of making BRs pick-ups and letting the Magnum shine, as it's a faster kill time and, assuming they fix the unwieldy "feel" of the weapon, a better gun for straight up individual battles on most arena maps.  With BRs and DMRs on pick-ups, you can see more expression of playstyles from the players, which helps build up hype for the players / build storylines  ("Oh Chig is the best BR anchor in the game" or "I've never seen APG pick up a DMR, he just holds forward and destroys people with his pistol") which I think is also a healthy thing for the competitive scene as a whole.

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All of my arguments are based off three fundamental assumptions to Halo design: 

 

1) The individual must be powerful enough to make a difference consistently 

-The player needs a weapon off spawn that can compete directly at all ranges while being the best at none. (this is where the DMR oversteps)

-The utility weapon needs a fast kill time

-Players need a decent sized clip and starting ammo

-Players need to start with grenades

-Players need to start with all basic attributes of a spawned player. 

 

2) Map control must be rewarded without turning into a checkmate scenario

-Sprint means that without utility map control is irrelevant on small>medium maps

-Not having decent effective range means that clumping is more effective than spread out setups

-Maps are now larger because of sprint than they were in halcyon days

 

3) Randomness is inherently bad for competition 

(this one doesn't relate directly to this topic)

 

Lethality is important to deal with sprint because it effectively fucks up all 3 of these points. It makes power and utility more important so that people can't just run around without consequence. It makes map control weaker by allowing someone to challenge quicker. And it makes the game more functionally random (in the sense that there are more factors that the player cannot know during play and forcing more guesswork which isn't as bad as RNG, but isn't exactly good either)

 

 

I was the one who convinced Eric to test Storm Rifles in early versions.

Congrats, I supported them day 1 as on map weapons and added them into all forge maps I made, and badgered Eric to test them on the MLG forums. We are on the same page here. 
 
But my main argument for Halo 5 is in favor of making BRs pick-ups and letting the Magnum shine, as it's a faster kill time and, assuming they fix the unwieldy "feel" of the weapon, a better gun for straight up individual battles on most arena maps.  With BRs and DMRs on pick-ups, you can see more expression of playstyles from the players, which helps build up hype for the players / build storylines  ("Oh Chig is the best BR anchor in the game" or "I've never seen APG pick up a DMR, he just holds forward and destroys people with his pistol") which I think is also a healthy thing for the competitive scene as a whole.

Yes it is a faster kill time overall. That is why I want Pistol off spawn. However, it is not a fast kill time at long range because of the fact that it is not designed to be effective at that range. Therefore, on average the BR had a faster kill time at mid to long range. 

 

By spawning with both, you get both kill times. 

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I agree that incentivizing winning is important, you have to be careful because if a win is worth 2x finishing a game, many people would quit games if it looks like they may lose in order to find a winning game faster. In my opinion there needs to be severe quit penalties. What I want is a system that results in a 5 minute ban for a quit that stacks. So the 2nd quit would be 10 mins, 5th would be 25 minutes, 50th would be 250 minutes. And i don't believe this should be reset any more than annually. I'll caveat that with saying if someone on your team quits you shouldn't be penalized for quitting after them. Im not a programmer or network person, but I'd imagine you can tell the difference between a dashboard quit, a normal quit, and disconnect, and then code for that.

What do you mean quit to find a winning game faster? How is it beneficial to quit until you find a game you're sure to win, assuming you get no (or even lose) XP for quitting? It's always better to stick it out, considering you'd start over from scratch.

 

Also, I've said it in a different thread, but quit/grief bans with set timers are pointless. It needs to be severe enough to make people reconsider their actions (24 hours, 48 hours, 1 week, etc.)

 

I used to get quit banned a lot back in Reach Arena when it was performance based because people always betrayed me for power weapons, so I shot people back. I ended up getting quit banned so many times that I just used all the cumulative time to beat the Legendary campaign 15 minutes at a time. In the end, it wasn't much of a punishment at all.

 

And no, as far as I know, the game can't tell the difference between a dashboard quit, ethernet cable pull, DDOS, quitting the app, lagging out or anything that shuts the connection down aside from an in-game quit or system kick.

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All of my arguments are based off three fundamental assumptions to Halo design: 

 

1) The individual must be powerful enough to make a difference consistently 

-The player needs a weapon off spawn that can compete directly at all ranges while being the best at none. (this is where the DMR oversteps)

I disagree regarding competing at LONG range, but again, my definition of LONG range nearly excludes it from existing in the majority of 4v4 maps, or only existing in a few specific areas.

-The utility weapon needs a fast kill time

Most weapons need a fast kill time.

-Players need a decent sized clip and starting ammo

Somewhat disagree here -- part of my support of the Pistol is with keeping fairly shallow clips but giving it faster reloads (and not a ton of initial ammo) -- gets used less for suppression and more for individual battles, with little worry of being caught reloading and unable to retaliate, since fast reloads would enable you to turn and fight rather quickly.

-Players need to start with grenades

Agreed.

-Players need to start with all basic attributes of a spawned player. 

Don't understand what you mean here.

 

2) Map control must be rewarded without turning into a checkmate scenario

-Sprint means that without utility map control is irrelevant on small>medium maps

Somewhat disagree here -- map design determines how important map control is.  Even with Sprint, you still saw set-ups in Reach, people controlling attics in Countdown, people controlling top port on Zealot.

-Not having decent effective range means that clumping is more effective than spread out setups

Obviously -- this ties into Spacing.  Since communication has evolved a great deal since CE, players need to be at a range where they can help out their teammates on a whim.  Having a larger effective range doesn't negate the need to keep decent spacing.  Players still want to control multiple lanes simultaneously but from positions where they are rarely forced into a 1v1 in order to most effectively control a map.

-Maps are now larger because of sprint than they were in halcyon days

RIP.

 

3) Randomness is inherently bad for competition 

(this one doesn't relate directly to this topic)

I also disagree here, Semantically.  Randomness that the player has no opportunity to react to is bad for competition.  (I wrote a blog supporting this stance if you want to argue it further, save us both time :p)  If you want an example of a game that wholly displays my point in this, I recommend you look into Offworld Trading Company, an RTS where there is no military and you win the game by buying out your opposition...but the map and resources each game are randomized.  You must adapt your strategy on the fly based off the available resources and what other players are choosing to invest in.

 

Lethality is important to deal with sprint because it effectively fucks up all 3 of these points. It makes power and utility more important so that people can't just run around without consequence. It makes map control weaker by allowing someone to challenge quicker. And it makes the game more functionally random (in the sense that there are more factors that the player cannot know during play and forcing more guesswork which isn't as bad as RNG, but isn't exactly good either)

 

I think you overestimate Sprint and undervalue the important of Spacing (granted, Spacing is not a skill that the majority of Halo players display.  There's a reason Roy/Lunchbox/Towey are so consistently on or near the top when they compete.)  Also if there is an issue of fresh spawners re-engaging too quickly (like we saw in Reach), there's still time to tune the shield recharge delay / shield recharge rate to better accommodate this issue.

 

(snip)

 

Therefore, on average the BR had a faster kill time at mid to long range. 

This is less the case with buffed pistol, which is a big thing that's being stressed throughout the thread.  A lot of the reason the pistol felt shitty at medium range was the flinch/recoil, which we're asking to be removed in order to make the pistol remain competitive at medium range.  And regarding Long Range, already addressed.

 

 

Bold

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Just binged 3 or 4 episodes of Hunt The Truth.

 

You're lying if you think this is not good marketing. The storyline in it is so... intense to say the least. Very well written, with excellent description.

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Going a bit off-topic...

 

I want to know who is arguing there is no randomness in sports? Of course there is. But one of the advantages of eSports is the use of technology where we can limit it. And they try to in professional sports, too--there isn't going to be rock within the baseball diamond--the field is pretty much perfect. I am just fresh out of high school, and one of my biggest gripes playing soccer was the shitty ass fields--the better team shines more if there's a perfect pitch. This may be stating the obvious, and I suppose I agree not all randomness is bad, but like you conclude, a lot is.

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