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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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I'm glad Chief is surrounded by people though, the dialogue was about to get awkward quick without Cortana to talk to.

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The Flood need a rest in my opinion.

 

But they will be back.

 

Supposedly within this game, but I have had doubts about their presence... After all the "Dark Part", as of now, is the ONI Smear Campaign.

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You must not be reading the content of the posts if you think what we're suggesting is for a weaker starting weapon. The pistol, when used optimally, has the fastest kill time of headshot weapons. This was kept in check artificially through clunkiness like recoil and flinch, which we are petitioning for the removal of in order to let the Pistol shine throughout close and medium range...giving the highest power of the individual we can milk out of Halo 5, as the pistol better stands against most power weapons than the BR when it actually works.

So then why not make the starting set Pistol and BR? 

 

Also, you specifically mentioned the tier system for the post in the OP (second quote) implying that you realize the pistol isn't the more all around powerful weapon. 

 

Reasons is isn't, in case I am wrong, involve the very clunkiness you are talking about, the small clip, and the lack of range. 

 

Straight kill time being fastest does not make it a weapon that empowers the individual most, and I would argue that range is actually a more significant factor in that because it allows you to be a more relevant presence on the map. Otherwise, shotgun start is the way to go for Halo. Not being able to kill 2 people in a clip, not being able to significantly damage someone far away, and not being able to significantly react to a situation on a different part of the map make the individual relativly unimportant. 

 

Pistol starts will lead to Halo 3 syndrome where everybody on the team holds one small location on the map to maximize their team-shooting, and team-shot will be the only relevant aspect of teamwork outside of power weapon and position control. Individuals having relevant lethality at range allows further factors such as flanking, macro map control, and LOS restrictions to be more viable, which expands the tactical aspects of halo

 

In my personal opinion, rifle start of some sort with a pistol secondary is the way to go, or pistols around the map. The weapon on the map that you pick up should not be the one with most utility. The utility weapon should be the one you start with. The niche weapons are the ones that should serve the role as spawning weapons, and the pistol's fast close killtime makes it fall into that category more strongly than any of the rifles. 

 

Not to mention that people just straight up will not go for anything other than BR starts and just won't play if it isn't BR starts meaning even if you are right, it is a pointless endevour. Trust me, I have worked quite a bit in the non-BR start camp for quite a while, and it is a great exercise in futility.

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dude I would fucking quit and not play halo 5 if AR starts were implemented into HCS. just no. pls stahp.

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dude I would fucking quit and not play halo 5 if AR starts were implemented into HCS. just no. pls stahp.

I can see you read all the pro AR+BuffedPistol arguments, and formulated a detailed, logical reply.  :kappa:

 

It's amazing how *competitive* minded people can be so irrationally attached to the least skillful utility weapon ever used in Halo. 

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Pistol starts will lead to Halo 3 syndrome where everybody on the team holds one small location on the map to maximize their team-shooting, and team-shot will be the only relevant aspect of teamwork outside of power weapon and position control. Individuals having relevant lethality at range allows further factors such as flanking, macro map control, and LOS restrictions to be more viable, which expands the tactical aspects of halo

 

That's a bit non-sequitur.

 

You're comparing Pistol starts (with BRs, LRs, DMRs, and power weapons on map) to BR starts (where the BR was a pissant weapon, but was the strongest non-power weapon available).

 

 

Also, although I didn't personally check it during the beta, I'm fairly sure the Magnum and BR have similar Red Reticule Ranges (in Halo 4, the Magnum actually had longer RRR than BR and Carbine both.  Not by much, but by a little.)  If I'm correct, then your argument about range is moot; the kills per clip is still valid, but I want a reload time on that weapon ridiculously short for the very reason; I want it to be strong in STRAIGHT-UP BATTLES, but not strong in SUPPRESSION.  Suppression is boring and lame.

 

 

 

Not to mention that people just straight up will not go for anything other than BR starts and just won't play if it isn't BR starts meaning even if you are right, it is a pointless endevour. Trust me, I have worked quite a bit in the non-BR start camp for quite a while, and it is a great exercise in futility.

 

Strange you say that since it seems there are quite a few people in this thread favorable to the AR/Non-Clunky Pistol starting option over the BR, and the amount keep growing as people read the arguments put forward in their favor.

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Really would be dope to have all the enemies back for variety. Brutes, covenant, promeatheons, and flood.

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That's a bit non-sequitur.

 

You're comparing Pistol starts (with BRs, LRs, DMRs, and power weapons on map) to BR starts (where the BR was a pissant weapon, but was the strongest non-power weapon available).

 

 

Also, although I didn't personally check it during the beta, I'm fairly sure the Magnum and BR have similar Red Reticule Ranges (in Halo 4, the Magnum actually had longer RRR than BR and Carbine both.  Not by much, but by a little.)  If I'm correct, then your argument about range is moot; the kills per clip is still valid, but I want a reload time on that weapon ridiculously short for the very reason; I want it to be strong in STRAIGHT-UP BATTLES, but not strong in SUPPRESSION.  Suppression is boring and lame.

No, I am comparing the Halo 5 pistol's effective range with the Halo 3 BR's effective range. It is not speculation that shorter ranged starting weapons cause players on a team to clump up more. The pistol is defined by lacking this range. Halo 1 had the most effective range for a starting weapon and setups tended to be very spread out. Halo 2 had lower effective range, so we saw setups involve players being closer to one another in proximity compared to Halo 1 to compensate for lower lethality, though it was still long enough range that spread did occur to control the map. Halo 3 had significantly shorter range, and we saw every dominant strategy on every map involve either 3/4 players staying in very close proximity, or 2 groups of 2 running together; furthermore, rather than map control, players controlled parts of the map. This had occured on Halo 2 maps such as lockout, but it was present on every map in Halo 3 outside of the foundry maps (probably because they are so small so this factor didn't matter much). Halo 2 had some of this issue but not to the same extent.

 

As for red reticule range, it is definitely shorter than the BR and DMR (I checked) and even if it didn't it still has shorter operational range due to the fact that it is designed with the "clunky" mechanics you pointed out early that make it less feasible to shoot long range. . It is designed to be shorter range. That is both the intent and operation of the weapon. Allegorically, it also feels less useful to use at range though anybody should take allegory with a grain of salt.

 

 

 

 
Strange you say that since it seems there are quite a few people in this thread favorable to the AR/Non-Clunky Pistol starting option over the BR, and the amount keep growing as people read the arguments put forward in their favor.

In the reach era, Needle rifle 6sk got a lot of traction in the thread posted about it, but it didn't go anywhere because it wasn't a human rifle. In the Halo 4 era, orange suffered a similar fate. The DMR did as well.

 

Even the Forge forum's 1v1 gametypes settles for DMR starts despite a lot of support to the contrary. 

 

This forum does not represent the average competitive Halo player. 

 

Maybe I will be wrong, but my faith that the majority of the competitive Halo community can have an open mind died long ago. 

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I think the overrulling concept is that of merging casual and competitive. No other top games have a gametype divide like this, nor so much bitterness towards each other's playstyle favour. I for one HATE, with a passion casual gametypes. And I know there is plenty of pure hatred out there for BR starts and competitive halo in general. What other game or sport has this? There are always disagreements between both sides but not to the extent Halo has.

 

In saying this though, I do fear that with all of the escape abilities in H5 anything but a rifle/very powerful starting weapon to balance defensive nature of the game, will badly hurt the competitive value... However does that matter if we have more numbers due to no more divide? (i'm not saying it wont, just putting a question out there)

 

#BiggerPicture

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No, I am comparing the Halo 5 pistol's effective range with the Halo 3 BR's effective range. 

You're also comparing Halo 5 to a game where the default speed had to be bumped up to 110% to make the strafe somewhat useful, and the damage buffed the same to compensate for random spread on the BR. Those aren't factors in Halo 5. The movement is crisp, and you have a lot of options to move around and flank people with. The pistol is able to be 100% accurate at range if you want it to be. People can move around a lot easier than you seem to think, unlike in Halo 3, where if you tried to push up, you'd be a sitting duck waiting to die unless you had numbers.

 

If we had BR starts, then people would do the same thing as you describe, however, there would be NO incentive to move around the map since people spawn with their weapon of choice. This, in the first place, goes against the logic of an arena shooter. Second, people would camp even more because of their ability to ping people from across the map and cause significant damage with a weapon which is much easier and less punishing to use. What gives? If it's too easy to nail people across the map, then people won't even want to push up at all. Everyone will just go for stupid angles and crack shots, while staying in the general vicinity of teammates. This is something that showed a lot when the H5B had BR starts. People just hid until someone made a stupid push, or until weapons were up. This is a problem. CE didn't have this issue because the power items did not guarantee kills.

 

Let's face it. In recent Halos, power weapons have not been CE-skillful to use, and picking up a sniper or a rocket launcher 100% guarantees some kills as long as you don't die with them. This is a reason we can't just make power weapons spawn as fast as it was in CE. This is set in stone, and all power weapons won't be rebalanced with this in mind. Therefore, having Tier 2 weapons (BRs, DMRs, etc.) on the map is the next best option. It makes people move around for an upgrade in firepower (truth is, it just becomes a lot easier to damage people at range -- the pistol is still viable in good hands). This is why it's important to make people look for them on the map instead of spawning with them.

 

The pistol is far from as bad as you make it sound, and buffing a slight amount would go a long way to help it make it viable against rifles at mid to long range. All in all, it still is much different from the Halo 3 BR, where at range there was nothing you could do to make the two last bullets of each burst hit if they decided to stray off target. If you want the pistol to hit someone across the map, it will. Of course, removing recoil and bloom would go a long way to make it a much, much better weapon. In the end, this is up to 343. But if done right, pistol starts would be the most logical option in Halo 5.

 

All of this would make a lot more sense to people if most did not try to compare Halo 5 to other games. Apples to oranges.

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Second, people would camp even more because of their ability to ping people from across the map and cause significant damage with a weapon which is much easier and less punishing to use. What gives? If it's too easy to nail people across the map, then people won't even want to push up at all. Everyone will just go for stupid angles and crack shots, while staying in the general vicinity of teammates. This is something that showed a lot when the H5B had BR starts. People just hid until someone made a stupid push, or until weapons were up. This is a problem. CE didn't have this issue because the power items did not guarantee kills.

 

 

You just described Halo 4's slayer meta. 1) Aquire power position (like Ridge in Settler). 2) Cross-map DMR enemy's base. 3) Die, fight for ridge, rinse and repeat. 

 

Edit: Forgot to add ordnance drops in there.  :lxthul:

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You just described Halo 4's slayer meta. 1) Aquire power position (like Ridge in Settler). 2) Cross-map DMR enemy's base. 3) Die, fight for ridge, rinse and repeat. 

 

Edit: Forgot to add ordnance drops in there.  :lxthul:

Funny because that's exactly what came to mind as I wrote it. I wish I could just forget it ever happened...

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I think the overrulling concept is that of merging casual and competitive. No other top games have a gametype divide like this, nor so much bitterness towards each other's playstyle favour. I for one HATE, with a passion casual gametypes. And I know there is plenty of pure hatred out there for BR starts and competitive halo in general. What other game or sport has this? There are always disagreements between both sides but not to the extent Halo has.

 

In saying this though, I do fear that with all of the escape abilities in H5 anything but a rifle/very powerful starting weapon to balance defensive nature of the game, will badly hurt the competitive value... However does that matter if we have more numbers due to no more divide? (i'm not saying it wont, just putting a question out there)

 

#BiggerPicture

 

 

There is hatred because the DEVs try to appease only one side....

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I think the overrulling concept is that of merging casual and competitive. No other top games have a gametype divide like this, nor so much bitterness towards each other's playstyle favour. I for one HATE, with a passion casual gametypes. And I know there is plenty of pure hatred out there for BR starts and competitive halo in general. What other game or sport has this? There are always disagreements between both sides but not to the extent Halo has.

 

You could compare it to real sports, such as baseball -- where little leagues (casuals) have different rules and equipment (tee-ball, pitching machines that throw the ball in the same spot every time) in place to help the young players who are not experienced enough to compete with those who have been playing for much, much longer.

 

Also, League of Legends' competitive community were pretty dismissive of their Dominion mode for the longest time.  Dominion's population is all but dead at this point.

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if the utility weapons are placed well, and the pistol can at least stand a chance against them, then i'm all for AR/pistol starts. It would promote more movement, and could possibly increase the meta by a large amount. 

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You could compare it to real sports, such as baseball -- where little leagues (casuals) have different rules and equipment (tee-ball, pitching machines that throw the ball in the same spot every time) in place to help the young players who are not experienced enough to compete with those who have been playing for much, much longer.

 

Also, League of Legends' competitive community were pretty dismissive of their Dominion mode for the longest time.  Dominion's population is all but dead at this point.

 

No that doesn't count- Being younger means you physically and mentally have limited ability, so gameplay needs to be adjusted to allow compatibility. This is like if you had a different controller that was very limited, like a D-pad for aiming and no bumpers for example, and giving this population different gametypes appropriate to those capabilities.

 

All popular sports between adults in their prime, are played the same. You don't have rules saying you can't kick the ball long distance in football when you are playing casually, just like there are no rules saying you can't run at your max speed. So why do we give our casuals weapons that can't shoot as far?

 

And for the majority of successful E-sports (what 343's goal for Halo is), there is no change in gametypes between casual and competitive. The evidence is all around us.

 

I am not sure about LoL gametypes etc because I don't play it so wont comment on that, other than everyone I have seen playing it is playing the same shit. And ALL of them love watching pros. That definitely can't be said about people I've seen playing Halo casually.

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There is hatred because the DEVs try to appease only one side....

So succinct of you...

 

 

I once talked about a skill gap threshold. People wondered what I was talking about. When you say you want to cross map with a starting weapon, you then have to talk about "shooting back" when you get pinged. But that is raising the threshold of skill required to play the game as a beginner. I know people will say that a good ranking system will make this work with a positive experience, but I can tell you it will only work until the next game is released and people leave Halo 5, then you will see noobs drop off for good, or at least a good number of time segments of the evening and night when populations drop. And it doesn't even begin to address aesthetics of play.

 

From what he has posted in the past, I would imagine @@chaosTheory would call wanting a game where you do not have to shoot back as self-entitlement, but I see it more as just what a segment of the population finds fun. To say that I need to and therefore need to want to shoot back is dictating what is fun for me. The thought of making the game uber competitive for the top end could be called self-entitled as well, because you are catering to what they enjoy most.

 

I am not opposed to shooting back. I am not opposed to learning. I am simply not interested in playing a BR start as much as an AR start BECAUSE the latter offers me a more entertaining game BECAUSE it offers a more of the exploring - roaming aesthetics in game play. That is not something that I can change, any more than the top end players can change how they feel about raw competition at the bleeding edge.

 

I do not hate the highly competitive, nor do I hate the lowly casual (see what I did there?)... But I disdain arrogance and narcissism with a passion (NOT CALLING ANYONE HERE ARROGANT, just saying what will push my button. Betray me for a sniper and find out.)

 

 

In the end, whatever H5 turns out to be, I will choose to buy it (USED ON CRAIGS LIST!) based only on how many people seem to enjoy it, videos of game play, and the likelihood of its longevity. And a low velocity heavy slug 3SK short range 4+SK at longer range pistol as a secondary to an AR would be sweet for me, because I view VARIETY as critical. I don't get how people can talk about BR starts. That raises the bottom of the sandbox and eliminates the usefulness of some weapons on initial spawn.

 

By making the pistol effective only at short range adds IMHO value to the sandbox variety.

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If we're comparing 4 to 5, just the fact that you know what your opponent is capable of at a glance is enough to make it a better game for me.  Couple that with static weapon timers on day 1, and yeah, it's an improvement.  I don't like the abilities either, but everything outside of that seems to be headed in the right direction.

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Either way h5 multiplayer is gonna blow chunks. Maps are too big to play without sprint and probably will suck like H4s did. Cant believe they ruined midship like that. Only 343 could fuck up a classic map like that. At least the campaign will be good and the game wont ship broken like MCC did (hopefully).

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Either way h5 multiplayer is gonna blow chunks. Maps are too big to play without sprint and probably will suck like H4s did. Cant believe they ruined midship like that. Only 343 could fuck up a classic map like that. At least the campaign will be good and the game wont ship broken like MCC did (hopefully).

Hey man at least we won't have to wait on someone to forge a shitship this time. Hopefully put their forging energy towards making something that isn't two base two tower with a side of "never playing as well as Midship so stop trying". Plus we haven't even seen their changes to Bigship. I'd imagine its an improvement from the description. Although I don't expect it to play as well as Midship it should be alright compared to... anything that came after Halo 3.

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They did say that they were editing maps, they also said sprint is going to be slower and movement speed faster, so it may not be as bad, but we won't know until launch.

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The youtube video about the animated poster mentions that the spartan fireteams would be important. I wonder if we may get something like Brothers in Arms to control the respective fire teams in combat.

They better not choke on the AI and the moments surrounding blue team. If I were 343 I'd be real worried about their in game representation matching up to everything we've been told/learned about them from other media. They cannot be anything like the AI in Reach that was just terrible lol. Its too bad we won't ever get to see the other people that were on Blue/Green team unless they make a prequelish game like Reach

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Another thought on the starting weapons - it's better for starting weapons to be able to be considered too good than it is for them to be considered ineffective. No matter the divisiveness of the Halo 1 Pistol it's still a game that can be enjoyed at all levels of play, whereas the same can't be said for something like Halo 2/3 SMG/AR starts (even when Halo 3 included the Magnum as a secondary).

 

I'm just hoping that Halo 5 doesn't end up falling into the latter category.

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