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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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What's the point of a Pistol, if it's not a starting weapon? Seriously. The competitive community needs to let go of its BR fetish, and push for a buffed H5 pistol.

 

1) Remove recoil - this should only stay on automatics or burst-fire weapons. Right now it ruins the Magnum.

2) Buff the RRR. It should be able to compete with BRs at range, though with lower aim-assist (which it has right now).

3) MAYBE make it a 4-shot. I'm torn on this, don't think we really need it, as the AR is getting nerfed in accuracy and headshot bonus. 

I agree with this sentiment, but if I had to buff the pistol, I'd be more tempted to increases its damage alone to keep the other rifles interesting at range. Having weapons with overlapping purposes it all too reminiscent of Halo 4 where every weapon as strong, but the sandbox still felt boring.

 

I'd buff it to 4sk, and then perhaps give it a SLIGHTLY slower RoF (would require careful calculations to make sure the end result is a buff still) just to make it a strong weapon, punishing to use, and not too spammable up-close in order to prevent the AR from being useless as well.

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Do you guys think there is more pre-launch hype for H5 than there was for Reach and 4? Seems like it to me.

As far as the campaign and story goes. I'm hyped

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I'm also interested in hearing what ANYONE who suggests BR+AR start has to say to defend it, taking into consideration that the Magnum requires more skill, is more punishing to use, and will 100% be used for default settings.

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Can someone explain to me what the "Confirmed" and jizzing is about? 

 

My lore levels are a little rusty at the moment and I don't get it lol. Someone replenish my immersion please.

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Thrusters were added before our opinion on them was available, so our influence was not responsible for adding thrusters to the game.

Umm thrusters were in Halo 4? And I remember many, many people asking, and anticipating thruster to be the only armor ability to come out of Halo 4 into Halo 5. 

 

 

 

Also, I don't know if you were around for the reach beta feedback thread that shishka started on the MLG forums, but almost everyone in the thread began by praising the game, some going as far as stating that reach was their favorite halo game yet.

I'm not sure how this relates.

 

 

 

Start another poll 1-2 months after the game launches posing the question "would you prefer halo 5 with or without thrusters." You will see very different results.

 

So is this just 100% speculation? Because we all already got the chance to play the game for a month and clearly the majority of people enjoy Thrusters. 

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I might have certain qualms with some mp ideas, but shit I'm excited to play this campaign. :halo:

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CSqgJ.gif

replace it with like that arrow that's on the screen when you sprint or with a dot or really small circle.

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Am I the only one who noticed how each weapon doesn't have a scope? Not even the DMR from Fred and the BR from Locke?

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Cosmetic/aesthetic customization scopes? Would make sense if they don't want paid DLC for maps. Gotta monetize it somehow. 

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Can someone explain to me what the "Confirmed" and jizzing is about? 

 

My lore levels are a little rusty at the moment and I don't get it lol. Someone replenish my immersion please.

 

Buck2.jpg

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Does anyone know why they don't show scopes in all their promo-stuff (arena-trailer didn't have them either)?

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This is an interesting idea. The lack of aim assist would make sprint-shooting less effective than normal shooting, so the defensive capabilities of sprint would be reduced but not eliminated. The challenge would be in how to communicate the mechanic to players so they understood how the system worked. Could potentially be done through reticle size. On the note about kicking players out of sprint whenever they take damage, this is something we've tested in the past (seems like a good tradeoff on paper) but it always feels terrible. It's hard to connect the act of being slowed to the impact of being shot (and directionally, where that damage is coming from). Players have been pretty unanimous in their hatred for it throughout extensive testing.

 

 

 

this

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BR + AR start is fine by me. As a Halo 1 fan-boy, the Pistol holds a dear place in my heart. But being in the military, the lore of a rifle in combat makes more sense to me. I get this is a video game, and blah blah blah, but, in my opinion, the BR has earned its place in the hands of the Spartans.

 

If people are worried about the high level of bullet magnetism, and low-level of skill to master the modern BR compared to other weapons, such as the Magnum, I am sure that is something the developers can work on for the final game. But personally, H5 had a great competitive feel to me. I don't have a lot of time to post right now, but I agree there are a few tweaks that could be made to polish it off.

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So is this just 100% speculation? Because we all already got the chance to play the game for a month and clearly the majority of people enjoy Thrusters.

I'm sure the majority of players that will play halo will enjoy thrusters, sprint, ads, and all the other gimmicks and will probably want those to return. When asked if the more analytical crowd had an influence on the inclusion of thruster in halo 5, going off a poll that was taken after the mechanic was coded into halo 5 is not a reliable way to verify any truth in that statement. Any analytical player asking for thruster to be the only AA to make a return was going off the assumption that spartan abilities were the new AA's, and therefore AA's would be making an inevitable return. In that sense, thruster was the least intolerable AA in h4.

 

So no, no speculation here. The honeymoon phase will pass and the analytical crowd will be shitting on nearly every aspect of h5 (thrust included, you can see it happening now in some threads) just like they did with reach. The population will take a huge plunge just like the last 2 games and halo 5's product life cycle won't be anything comparable to what halo used to be.

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Can someone explain to me what the "Confirmed" and jizzing is about? 

 

My lore levels are a little rusty at the moment and I don't get it lol. Someone replenish my immersion please.

That's Buck, from Halo 3: ODST.

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Why there is no scope, I think it could be three things.

This can be one of the "Hunt the Truth" things, is it really as it appears? I have no idea why a scope would matter, but ya know. 

Or

In campaign you do not have physical scopes, it is all smart scope on your HUD.

Or 

They forgot to put it on, but I doubt it.

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Thought I'd pull all of the H5 starting weapons posts from H5 thread, given @@Sal1ent 's comments. My opinion in 2nd post.
 

Just do BR primary with AR secondary. That way the competitive players can run around and not feel helpess. Meanwhile if casuals wanna run around with their ARs let them.

 

Personally, I disagree with this post.

 

I had much more fun in the H5 beta during the first week, with the AR and Magnum starts, as opposed to the second week with the BR starts.  Part of that was the map design, but the other part felt like I just couldn't move due to how oppressive the BR was, combined with how easy it was to use.  It makes it really hard to move once an enemy has set up somewhere powerful, and really discourages the usage of the mobility options within the game.

 

I think the Pistol felt like a much more skillful weapon, and was perfectly capable in its own right.  I think it should be treated as the "core utility weapon" -- and as I've posted several times before, I'd really prefer a three-tiered utility weapon hierarchy, and Halo 5's sandbox almost meets what I've suggested in the past.

 

A pistol with a low TTK, low kills per clip (2 or less) and extremely fast reload speed -- short aim assist range so it's dominant in close quarters, but requires much more finesse beyond medium range.

A "carbine" (BR) with a slightly longer TTK, average kills per clip (3-4) and slower reload speed -- medium aim assist range so it's pretty useful in most situations.

A "rifle" (DMR) with a comparatively long TTK (but not unreasonable), 4-5 kills per clip, slow reload speed, but enormous aim assist when paced.

 

In that hierarchy, on Arena maps, a Pistol wielder lives and dies by their success in 1v1s, while the BR and DMR are more equipped for the "support"ish players who like to put shots on people from range.  In my opinion, in a market dominated by CoD, this hierarchy makes way more sense than trying to force one weapon down the player's throats, because comparatively, CoD has three different weapon styles -- SMG (dominant close range), AR (medium/long range long) and Sniper (long range skillful instakill) -- it encourages a bit of playstyle from the player allowing them to temper their gameplay to their strengths.

 

APG and Roy would rely on their Pistols, while more passive players like Fear, VictoryX and the like would look for the BRs and DMRs and try to keep their distance.  A pistol player's goal is to kill the target in front of them, take cover for shields/reload, then push up and take down another isolated target, or use their clip to clean up 2-3 players softened by the longer range guns.  The tiered system incorporates more depth than relying on a single weapon.

 

 

As for how the AR fits into this -- people who can't aim for shit need compensation that isn't tied into how sticky the aim is.  I didn't feel the AR was overpowered in H5 (though the SMG was borderline)...and I don't understand why people think automatics are a bad thing for Halo. :-/

 

 

Anyway, back on point: What's more important is the balance of the weapons against one another...and personally I'd prefer straying away from giving people the easier-to-use, longer range weapon off spawn.

 

 

I couldn't agree less. The main factor behind players not moving was the radar first and foremost. Maps like bigship had a definite lack of cover on some very large gaps that took the places of the streets. The entrances and exits to those bases were garbage due to how exposed it left players if they wanted to go anywhere but those have been apparently changed already. There was just too much no man's land on that map. The BR itself didn't seem very oppressive or dangerous in comparison to your movement abilities. If you were well positioned (example: Not standing dead center of a street on Bigship) you could always escape. I'd argue the BR/DMR weren't good enough at times.

 

The pistol though? I feel like it lacked far too much outside of CQC to really be the starting primary in H5. While you could say it was skillful to use from a distance you'd have to understand that it was easier to cross map no scope someone than to hit all shots on someone standing still with that pistol. Even for pro players you'd just see people taking pot shots with the pistol praying everything landed outside of a small radius rather than actual skillful execution and/or people would just fly across the map. The reality of pistol starts vs the theory that it takes so much skill would be pretty gross to see. If they bumped the RRR on the pistol a bit and made it steady when you let off all your shots I think there would be a bit more healthy gameplay going on with it.

 

 

I feel that BR/AR starts would only be effective if the ranking system works. From my experience, casuals only get harassed by BRs when they play against much higher skilled opponents. I do agree that BR/AR starts could be a perfect solution, though.

 

 

Br/Ar starts would be best, IMO. 

 

Just wanted to throw my opinion in there. I don't think I'll be playing it much if it's not BR starts. 

 

 

This is a topic of hot debate and I don't know where the team will ultimately land at launch. The good news is it's easy to update in the playlist config so modifying once live is straightforward.

 

One of the interesting things we saw in the data from beta was that retention for players that started playing in week 2 (BR starts) was substantially lower than week 1. There was a high incidence of new players (mid-level skill based on historical performance) playing and losing 1-2 games and then giving up on the game. We didn't see this w/ AR starts. It's impossible to draw absolute conclusions from these stats but it highlighted the potential for frustration when players are getting pinged at long distance by the BR while struggling to use it themselves. We've also been deliberate in establishing the BR a skilled weapon w/ relatively low aim assist. This widens the skill gap and rewards the player with the better shot, but it's potentially more frustrating for new players. We've seen feedback from players complaining about the BR feeling ineffective, which usually translates into "I can't hit my target consistently."

 

The approach we've taken w/ weapon balance is to establish the AR as viable at CQC and mid-range, w/ the BR extending out longer and having a slight advantage in the hands of a skilled shooter. In this regard it can work as a starting weapon off spawn.

 

But obviously there will be contention amongst the community. Witness:

 

 

 

:)

 
 

I think 343 wants the pistol to be a secondary though....which is most likely why Br/Ar starts wasn't a thing in the beta. If only the pistol was a bit stronger.

 

 

To be fair, it's not as simple as that. 343 wants to have fast search times. The ranking system that most competitive players enjoy the most only works with a high population. When the matchmaking system is strict, search times could take 5 minutes or even longer. I'm sure with enough balance, tweaking, and considering Josh Menke's input during his time at 343, we can expect a decent system once Halo 5 drops.

 

 
 

This is something else that I was going to touch on. I think AR/Pistol start could work if the Pistol was a little bit stronger or had a larger clip. When I was playing the beta, I used the pistol a lot when all of the utility weapons were taken. The only issue is that the clip was just large enough to get one kill. That one kill can help break a setup or disrupt an enemy team's spree, but that reload on the pistol puts you in a very vulnerable position. In my honest opinion, I'd prefer to spawn with a high skill utility weapon, but I understand that the game has to be accessible.

 

 

What's your approach with the pistol? Many, including me, would be fine with AR + Pistol starts, if Pistol gets a buff. As it is right now, it's the hardest weapon to use, without a big enough reward. Taking off recoil would help tremendously, along with extending the range a bit. 

 

Edit: And AR + Pistol starts worked well in CE & Reach, because the Pistol was viable long range, but was hard to use, so it wasn't annoying at lower levels. 

 

 

I just don't want every match to start with me thinking: "Sprint around to find a DMR/BR" instead of actually playing.

 

I really, REALLY, don't think it's going to go over well if we don't get BR starts. I know a lot of AR starts enthusiasts on HaloGAF said they'd be okay with BR/AR starts. 

 

 

At least give the option in the voting screen to always show BOTH Team AR's and Team BR's, if not give us a team BR's playlist, I honestly could not play the game any more in the 3rd week once Team Br's was taken out of rotation, Halo 5 because of sprint has huge maps which in theory should be a no-brainer for us to start with BR's.

Thanks for sticking around @@Sal1ent  :)

 

 

I feel the same way about trying to find the ranged rifles on the map. It is a little frustrating to deal with, but I think you can agree that the AR is possibly the strongest in the series so far? I believe the scope, increased range, and decreased kill time makes it a viable starting weapon this time. While I don't prefer to use the AR, I can still get by with it. A team with BRs or DMRs will more than likely crush you, but the sandbox in H5 seems to be much much stronger overall this time around. I can recall using the SMG, AR, and Magnum to kill other players that have BRs and DMRs and regain control of the map.

 

I'm not necessarily defending Josh's post, I would just like to see a more expansive sandbox in competitive Halo. The BR, Rockets, and Sniper meta gets very stale IMO.

 

 

As much as I enjoyed AR/BR starts. It should be AR/pistol like it has always been in past games for basic team slayer. Only now it actually works. Plus it makes the BR a weapon to grab on the map.

So just like halo 3, there should be Team BRs in MM with AR/BR starts, and Team Slayer with AR.

 

 

 halo ce got it perfect  ar+ pistol start   , in case of h5 would be  ar+br or ar+buffed pistol   , @@Sal1ent in tmcc competitive players quit of ar/smg starts and casuals quit of br starts , but in ce nobody quits  (except if they get crushed due bad rank/skill system)  to summarize ar+ br starts  with a good rank/skill system (and  a hcs without sprint) =   :goat:

 

 

I'd be fine with AR/BUFFED PISTOL starts. I'd be realllly happy with BR/AR Starts so I don't have to 'sprint' around the map trying to find a BR, or DMR.

 

 

I would be fine with BR starts or BR/AR starts. Not with AR or AR/Magnum

 

A good Skill based matchmaking system will get rid of new players complaining about getting wrecked by BRs.

 

 

noob. BR is massively overrated, especially when it comes to a skill gap.

 

AR + Buffed Pistol FTW.

 

 

I want a starting weapon that is effective at various ranges. 

 

 

Buffed pistol would do that, unless you consider "effective" to mean hand-holding aim assist and bullet mag, like the BR.

 

 

Why not just run with BR Primary, AR secondary? This to me has been the obvious solution for years now. On top of that as far as player retention goes, just make sure the ranking system works and that theory no longer holds any weight. I for one stopped playing in week 2 because after week 1, I was hoping BR starts would fix most of the issues I had with H5. It did not so I stopped playing. I know this is true for the majority of my xbl friends as well, so some that could explain some of your numbers.

 

 

Supposedly the bullet mag will be reduced in the final game.

 

I am all for a hard to use starting weapon, but look at the weapons in the beta:

 

- Pistol 

- BR 

- DMR

- Light Rifle

 

Then add maybe a Carbine a who knows what more to the final game.

 

I want to start with the most versatile rifle, and that is the BR.

 

 

If Magnum took one less shot to kill it would stand a fair chance against BR / DMR and would be a viable counter to how powerful the AR was (and I assume still is).

If we use BR starts, we just created one pointless sandbox element. It's not even about getting wrecked by it, it's just pointless.

I just don't see why people insist on BR starts. It's not more skillful in any shape or form, it's just a better (also read: easier) weapon overall. It's worth picking up, but what's the point of upgrading the starting weapon to other stuff just because it's better? It takes away from map knowledge if anything, because that's one less thing to go for on the maps, which means more pointless areas on maps that are big enough as it is.

And where do we draw the line? Imagine if people spawned with snipers in Halo 3 just because the BR wasn't that good at all?

 

 

ar + buffed pistol then

 

 

What's the point of a Pistol, if it's not a starting weapon? Seriously. The competitive community needs to let go of its BR fetish, and push for a buffed H5 pistol.

 

1) Remove recoil - this should only stay on automatics or burst-fire weapons. Right now it ruins the Magnum.

2) Buff the RRR. It should be able to compete with BRs at range, though with lower aim-assist (which it has right now).

3) MAYBE make it a 4-shot. I'm torn on this, don't think we really need it, as the AR is getting nerfed in accuracy and headshot bonus. 

 

Edit: Also, in case you didn't know, Pistol kills faster than the BR. 1.1 second perfect kill time versus 1.34 second perfect kill time.

 

 

I think having a precision weapon that can nudge out the AR in CQC with perfect shots is a must (buffed pistol - remove all spread/flinch/recoil), I do appreciate the weapon balance you are aiming to achieve though. However you need to have that motivation/capability to improve your aim to allow natural progression/prevent stagnation. By that I mean noobs don't stay noobs for ever - most of them become at least average players, in which case they care about performing better. Even in muck around games people still like to do better than worse, people who say otherwise are lying or are trying some kind of social reaction experiment. So allowing the opportunity to gain an advantage in simple spawner vs spawner combat, by using a more difficult weapon, is perfect facilitation for general population skill improvements.

 

If there is no always-accessible reward for aiming better, then why learn to aim better? If using a low-skill weapon gets you better results 90% of them time, then why learn to use a harder weapon? (the unpopular Carbine is the consistent example of this; harder to use than the BR but not rewarding enough to warrant using)

 

Again, the argument that casuals don't care about improving is irrelevant; this is not forcing them to play a hard game, play against hard opponents, or even to use the pistol/BR or improve at all. It is simply leading a horse to water, whether they drink or not is up to them. Looking at the bigger picture is important here; we need to reduce the divide between social and competitive for the good of both populations.

 

 

BR/AR starts in Halo 5 would be like AR/Magnum in Halo CE. Boom, It'll work.

 

 

I agree with this sentiment, but if I had to buff the pistol, I'd be more tempted to increases its damage alone to keep the other rifles interesting at range. Having weapons with overlapping purposes it all too reminiscent of Halo 4 where every weapon as strong, but the sandbox still felt boring.

 

I'd buff it to 4sk, and then perhaps give it a SLIGHTLY slower RoF (would require careful calculations to make sure the end result is a buff still) just to make it a strong weapon, punishing to use, and not too spammable up-close in order to prevent the AR from being useless as well.

 

 

I'm also interested in hearing what ANYONE who suggests BR+AR start has to say to defend it, taking into consideration that the Magnum requires more skill, is more punishing to use, and will 100% be used for default settings.

 

I don't think BR/AR solves 343i's concerns . . . but AR/buffed pistol does.

 

 

Make the pistol a 4 shot kill with Ar (remove headshot bonus).  

 

 

 

If you're voting for AR + Buffed Pistol starts, please + rep @KurtiZ post on first page. 3rd post down.

 

If you're voting for AR + BR starts, please + rep @VinFTW post on first page. 4th post down. 

 

Negs will not be counted.

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