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Halo 5: Guardians Discussion

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That requires a functioning skill matching system and an adequate population.

 

I mean we're talking about Halo. Both of it should be a given. Sadly only in theory.

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@@Sal1ent hasn't gone full-Lukems, though, in plainly stating that there are some things that are just demographic pitches and that's just the cards we're being dealt. We're specifically being told that sprint, thruster, ground pound, etc. are good for the core gameplay of Halo, something I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of us disagree with in both principle and practicality after having played the beta. Yes, changes can be made to what we saw in the preview - it's also possible that we haven't seen all of the Spartan abilities yet, and that there are other additions to the game that are going to cloud the experience even further.

 

No argument from me on the above.  I, too, am concerned about other possible abilities being allowed in MP because I think the game has already become too cluttered with things that (aside from basic movements that have always been there) have little utility.  I do agree with 343i entirely on making TP a base trait, though - I loved TP from H4 and said many, many times I hope it was the only AA retained for H5.  I guess we will have to wait and see on that part.

 

While there are some who would go apoplectic if 343i came out and said, "we are doing X because we believe that it will be viewed favorably by a larger audience than will hate it," I believe most of us are mature enough to understand that they are a business and they must make those kinds of decisions.  Microsoft funds 343i to make Halo to sell Xboxes.  That is the only reason Microsoft owns the Halo intellectual property.  If Halo does not appeal to a huge audience, it will be shitcanned and replaced with something that does.  This is the reality of the franchise.  From a business standpoint, it exists solely to provide a reason for as many people as possible to buy and Xbox and not a PS4.  Absent performance to that goal, it will be jettisoned.  This means that Halo must appeal to the masses, so 343i must make decisions that promote that goal.*

 

We may feel their market analysis is incorrect and that the specific choices they have made do not support that goal.  We could then argue that aspect of the decisions and avoid wasting time on the competitive gameplay arguments.  This would avoid much of the frustration that comes with making a good, solid gameplay argument only to have it fall on deaf ears . . . not because the argument wasn't valid, but because it did not address the reason the decision was made.

 

*Note that Sal1ent has recently made several statements like this concerning sprint.  Without meaning to misinterpret his statements, they seem much easier to interpret that 343i feels H5 will attract a larger audience with sprint than without than to be interpreted as "it's good for hardcore competitive gameplay."  "Happy with the gameplay" =/= "good for hardcore competitive gameplay".  "Happy with gameplay" is a much softer statement that says only that they believe the gameplay with sprint supports their business goals for the franchise.  So I think we already have that statement from Josh . . . just not quite as directly as I put it.

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The one major issue that is not gone is sprint.  Yes, I wish it were gone, too.  With that said, I'm also willing to admit that the way sprint was implemented in the beta is vastly superior to H4, and it will get better after the delta is reduced.  Significantly or marginally better depends on the degree of the adjustment.  Regardless, it is improved.

I'm gonna have to stop right there. While the shield recharge delay seems like a good idea on paper (when it comes to escape-ability), it actually works against the player and adds even more frustration and issues to the already problematic sprint.

 

There were times in the BETA where I couldn't help pinned-down teammates because my shields were down and I couldn't sprint to them and risk getting shot on the way, nor could I "jog" to them and make it in time. Also missed a lot of opportunities to pick up power weapons because sprinting to them was a big risk and jogging took time. Sometimes, I had to keep running and thrusting away from my pursuer hoping to make it to my teammates without someone picking me up from across the map.

 

The problem is that most encounters between near-equally skilled players (especially if those players are equipped with precision weapons) end up with the winning player having depleted/near-depleted shields. With the new sprint "nerf" you're punishing the winning player and putting him at a disadvantage and making him feel even weaker.

 

Making players feel frustrated and weak isn't a good idea.

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We may feel their market analysis is incorrect and that the specific choices they have made do not support that goal.  We could then argue that aspect of the decisions and avoid wasting time on the competitive gameplay arguments.  This would avoid much of the frustration that comes with making a good, solid gameplay argument only to have it fall on deaf ears . . . not because the argument wasn't valid, but because it did not address the reason the decision was made.

 

This is specifically why I just want someone to be on-the-level with us. At the very least, I could metaphorically sleep at night.

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Would love to see something like this in the future if possible, even talking BTB/New Modes/Campaign/etc @@Sal1ent

I like the idea of the cohesive UI where it sounded like all aspects of the game will just flow while you are partied up whether you choose to play campaign, multiplayer, or zombies.

 

Additionally, does the "Specialist" in Black Ops III kind of remind you of choosing a Guardian in Destiny that has a special ability with a super that gets recharged during game play?

 

343 has a tough road ahead tying to keep Halo 5's multiplayer relevant and playable long-term with the additional games being released this Fall. Hopefully we'll know more about where Halo's future is headed at E3. 

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This is specifically why I just want someone to be on-the-level with us. At the very least, I could metaphorically sleep at night.

Amen.

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This is specifically why I just want someone to be on-the-level with us. At the very least, I could metaphorically sleep at night.

I think @@Sal1ent is starting to realize it's better to just say "because we like it" rather than BS us with immersion. People will still be upset with sprint in h5 but at least they can respect him saying the truth of the matter.

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The point is that you can be very successful without using it, even before the post-beta tuning (which narrows the delta between base and sprint movement speed). There is tactical value to using the ability in specific situations but it's not required to succeed.

simply not using sprint would be a clear disadvantage, not only is the map bigger for me since I'm not using the mechanic designed to get me around the already bigger map, but others will be using it as well, getting to power positions faster, getting to weapons faster, getting away faster. It is pretty much required to win in h5, other wise, why not make it a setting players can turn on and off at will in the options menu in game?

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Does anybody else think it would be cool if the pro team came on here and discussed this stuff with us? I feel like they could shed a lot of light on this stuff for us.

 

@@Sal1ent

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yes, one has been tested, and it has failed, currently it's much more common for harm to come out of thruster than good in any given match. the problem is, nobody is doing adequate testing of a thruster with no shooting restriction, when that's exactly what should be going on, considering the poor performance of the current iteration of thruster.

How has it failed? Be specific.

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That requires a functioning skill matching system and an adequate population. If you don't have both you wind up with a game where noobs quit and all that is left is the 1% team hard core. Call me silly but I don't think they are trying to make a game to cater only to the competitive crowd. @@Sal1ent posted how the data infers long range ping and potential difficulty learning the BR are likely issues. BR/AR starts only solves half of that. AR starts solves both. Having two playlists is the best solution (ranked and social)

That same situation can happen even with good skill matching if the game is superlatively skill-intensive. Tribes: Ascend is an example of this. The game was a fantastic fun game, but it really is -too hard- for a casual audience to learn the intricacies necessary to enjoy it. I could've used Titanfall as an example as well if it had ranking at launch.

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I'm gonna have to stop right there. While the shield recharge delay seems like a good idea on paper (when it comes to escape-ability), it actually works against the player and adds even more frustration and issues to the already problematic sprint.

 

There were times in the BETA where I couldn't help pinned-down teammates because my shields were down and I couldn't sprint to them and risk getting shot on the way, nor could I "jog" to them and make it in time. Also missed a lot of opportunities to pick up power weapons because sprinting to them was a big risk and jogging took time. Sometimes, I had to keep running and thrusting away from my pursuer hoping to make it to my teammates without someone picking me up from across the map.

 

The problem is that most encounters between near-equally skilled players (especially if those players are equipped with precision weapons) end up with the winning player having depleted/near-depleted shields. With the new sprint "nerf" you're punishing the winning player and putting him at a disadvantage and making him feel even weaker.

 

Making players feel frustrated and weak isn't a good idea.

 

The flip side of this is that in the case of helping teammates, we could also cast that as you allowed yourself to put too much distance between you and them such that you had to rely on sprint to lend support.  I'm fully aware there is only so much validity to that argument, as scaling maps for sprint necessarily makes them bigger and creates more opportunities for that kind of positioning problem.  But the beta maps were still reasonably sized (in my opinion), so there is some validity to my counterpoint.

 

I think the problem you described (personal opinion here; no stats to back it up) is outweighed by the decrease in the delta between jog and sprint as compared to H4.  When it comes to power weapons, etc., that problem definitely exists in H4 - and to a larger degree because sprinting was more important in H4.  You're helpless when sprinting, and even against mediocre players, if they get one shot on you and fire the second as you are responding, the battle is already decided.

 

To your point, though, I do not think that having sprint prevent shield recharge is the best tradeoff when retaining sprint.  I would prefer to enable shooting during sprint (but disable aim assist) and have taking fire while sprinting slow you down.  Then you could always chase down that one-shot trying to sprint to escape and you avoid the both the helpless power-weapon rush and team support issues you describe.

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How has it failed? Be specific.

the majority of thruster use has been entirely defensive, running from fights or simply to avoid shots to live longer, because it's not like you can attack while doing it. It gives much more incentive to use it defensively than offensively. There are semi offensive motives but they are buried within much more prominent defensive motives. You use it in the middle of a fight so that he misses shots and you live, that's the primary reason, the secondary reason is to be on position to shoot him after you stop thrusting.

 

It's has more of a negative impact than it does positive, but I'm not going to say it's fundamentally flawed, which is why I've been advocating the removal of the restriction on shooting, with this, more offensive tactics become encouraged, closing gaps, or displacing your shots with a burst or automatic weapon to hit a group while moving quickly(much more situational but you get the point). Hell, add charge to thruster, now they have even more incentive. Players play more aggressively and games speed up.

 

Limiting thruster to simply being good at avoiding shots is doing it a disservice.

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This is specifically why I just want someone to be on-the-level with us. At the very least, I could metaphorically sleep at night.

You say a lot of things I personally agree with, but why do you compare 343 to one of the most evil forces ever imagined?

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simply not using sprint would be a clear disadvantage, not only is the map bigger for me since I'm not using the mechanic designed to get me around the already bigger map, but others will be using it as well, getting to power positions faster, getting to weapons faster, getting away faster. It is pretty much required to win in h5, other wise, why not make it a setting players can turn on and off at will in the options menu in game?

 

Not using sprint does not always put a player at a disadvantage and Sprinting is not required to win- It's circumstantial.

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the majority of thruster use has been entirely defensive, running from fights or simply to avoid shots to live longer, because it's not like you can attack while doing it. It gives much more incentive to use it defensively than offensively. There are semi offensive motives but they are buried within much more prominent defensive motives. You use it in the middle of a fight so that he misses shots and you live, that's the primary reason, the secondary reason is to be on position to shoot him after you stop thrusting.

 

It's has more of a negative impact than it does positive, but I'm not going to say it's fundamentally flawed, which is why I've been advocating the removal of the restriction on shooting, with this, more offensive tactics become encouraged, closing gaps, or displacing your shots with a burst or automatic weapon to hit a group while moving quickly(much more situational but you get the point). Players play more aggressively and games speed up.

 

Limiting thruster to simply being good at avoiding shots is doing it a disservice.

 

@Sal1ent:  would you consider making shooting while thrusting a toggle for custom games (or, better yet, give us an option to change the time-to-shoot after thrust initiation which goes all the way down to zero)?  That way, we could test our theories.  Regardless of what your internal testing shows - and regardless of how qualified the testers are to make those decisions - players will rarely accept their assessments unless the players have had the opportunity to try it for themselves.  Were a toggle to be provided, players might well come to the same conclusion as your pros.  Without a toggle, the chance of that is zero.

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As much as I enjoyed AR/BR starts. It should be AR/pistol like it has always been in past games for basic team slayer. Only now it actually works. Plus it makes the BR a weapon to grab on the map.

 

So just like halo 3, there should be Team BRs in MM with AR/BR starts, and Team Slayer with AR.

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@Sal1ent:  would you consider making shooting while thrusting a toggle for custom games?  That way, we could test our theories.  Regardless of what your internal testing shows - and regardless of how qualified the testers are to make those decisions - players will rarely accept their assessments unless the players have had the opportunity to try it for themselves.  Were a toggle to be provided, players might well come to the same conclusion as your pros.  Without a toggle, the chance of that is zero.

ugh, I hate having to have the better features be limited to custom games, unless there is a server browser it's pretty much worthless.

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Not using sprint does not always put a player at a disadvantage and Sprinting is not required to win- It's circumstantial.

players sprinting have an obvious advantage in speed at any given time, when would they not have an advantage?

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 halo ce got it perfect  ar+ pistol start   , in case of h5 would be  ar+br or ar+buffed pistol   , @@Sal1ent in tmcc competitive players quit of ar/smg starts and casuals quit of br starts , but in ce nobody quits  (except if they get crushed due bad rank/skill system)  to summarize ar+ br starts  with a good rank/skill system (and  a hcs without sprint) =  :goat:

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You say a lot of things I personally agree with, but why do you compare 343 to one of the most evil forces ever imagined?

 

 I was actually looking for a new sig. lol Ideas welcome.

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players sprinting have an obvious advantage in speed at any given time, when would they not have an advantage?

 

Yeah but speed doesn't = WIN

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The issue with sprint has nothing to do with the offensively/defensively rhetoric. The offensive use of sprint is more the result of various factors, notably the scale of the map, the range of the primary weapon, and site of lines.

 

The evident issue with providing sprint and clamber and other movement options is that it dramatically reduces the predictability of the opponent's behaviour. You can no longer accurately predict an opponent's movement patterns across a map, the speed of travel, etc. which simply ends up forfeiting structure to gameplay, giving place to a chaotic jumble of random engagements.

 

@@Sal1ent mentioned an important point about thruster necessitating a "tell". It is the same concept as how you can usually predict when an opponent is going to jump during a battle (typically at the end of the strafe before the shield "pop"). These are broad patterns of engagement and movement that are learned by experience and allow skilled players to thrive. Providing static powerups further provides structure to gameplay.

 

To provide a simple example that will illustrate my point: You know that an opponent is 5meters away, but you cannot see him. You want to time a grenade to his run, but you have no idea how long it will take for that player to reach your position due to extreme variability in movement. This is a simple problem, but I assure you that it is endemic within a game with an arena setting and the plethora of alternate movement possibilities provided.

 

Since you understand the concept as illustrated with your comments on the design of thruster ability, why would features like sprint and clamber (spartan pound, etc.) all be include?

 

This whole concept of having to shoot while thrusting, sprinting, etc. for this so-called offensive gameplay is rubbish imo.

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ugh, I hate having to have the better features be limited to custom games, unless there is a server browser it's pretty much worthless.

 

Understandable.

 

On the other hand, our theories (I, too, like the idea of shooting-while-thrusting) have had zero real world testing by any of us.  Our initial thoughts may well be wrong.  Remember that a large part of the community wanted bloom . . . until we got it.  We've made mistakes before (not saying you specifically, but rather the vocal portion of the community). If shoot-while-thrust turns out to be the best thing since individually wrapped slices of cheese, we lose out on having it for at least a portion of Halo 5's life (though there would be a slim chance that a TU might change it if it is well-liked enough), but we have the opportunity to lobby for 3 years to get it there for H6.  Without the custom games option, we have a much slimmer chance of ever getting it.

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