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9 hours ago, Destroyaaa said:

I meant the part about no D3 but I guess Nokt covered that

They didn't actually say that out right but they did say were all in on destiny 2. If there is to be a destiny 3 it wont be for a long time, and I hope they dont do it. I'm not starting over again.  I see no point in a destiny 3, just improve, expand destiny 2.  If anything they need to get rid of the 2. 

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On 7/2/2020 at 7:37 PM, Gold said:

They didn't actually say that out right but they did say were all in on destiny 2. If there is to be a destiny 3 it wont be for a long time, and I hope they dont do it. I'm not starting over again.  I see no point in a destiny 3, just improve, expand destiny 2.  If anything they need to get rid of the 2. 

B-but, they now have you perpetually starting over again and again with the sunsetting garbage. For the same. Exact. Crap.

Ugh, it would be awesome if it TRULY WAS an all-encompassing collection of all the content they ever had. And I would agree with them dropping the 2 and just going back to calling plain old Destiny.

Just completely turned off by the all-in MMO route. Drip fed stuff, excessively grindy, and requires a marital commitment to be able to keep up with it. Don't have that kind of time. And then now completely rendering previous grind efforts %100 guaranteed to be obsolete in Endgame. Just nah man. Before, at least without trying to get everything, I still had something. Kept me playing even a little for things I actually liked and wanted.

VoG was awesome. And with how both it and Crota's End can be currently played/were once played in D1, they could easily be slightly tweaked to become 3-man dungeons like Shattered Throne or The Pit of Heresy in D2. Would be awesome. But, kinda sucks that the return of anything means literally deleting stuff from D2. EP on Mars or the Menagerie are fun activities to blast things in. Not to mention Nessus is just one of my favorite places to roam, if only for the atmosphere. If I could have that all in one game no ifs, ands, or buts then sure. By all means.

Ugh. I've been ranting too much about this game lately. Haven't played in 4 months, and don't feel the desire, or that it is worth it, to waste time again. Been burnt too many times.

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I guess for me the game is getting stale for the opposite reasons. How long has revoker, mountaintop, spare rations, mindbenders, recluse, etc been the meta? Whats the point in playing a new season when there is nothing worth getting? Are we just suppose to keep continually making more and more powerful weapons or nerf them into the ground like Izanagi's Burden, hardlight, TLW, whisper, sleeper, fusions, any sniper that isn't an aggressive frame.

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1 hour ago, Nokt said:

I guess for me the game is getting stale for the opposite reasons. How long has revoker, mountaintop, spare rations, mindbenders, recluse, etc been the meta? Whats the point in playing a new season when there is nothing worth getting? Are we just suppose to keep continually making more and more powerful weapons or nerf them into the ground like Izanagi's Burden, hardlight, TLW, whisper, sleeper, fusions, any sniper that isn't an aggressive frame.

Well, having to keep grinding for literal reskins of the exact same meh weapons is not 'worth' it either. Sunsetting only makes it artificially so by literally requiring you to just grind for a new one. And they haven't even done that right since people are already doing it for Gnawing Hunger, for example. All literally just so that a single number is bigger. So arbitrary.

I mean, leveling up and stuff IS supposed to make you at least FEEL more powerful anyway. But that has traditionally been a bust since in Destiny level 1 patrol enemies still hit you for about the same amount. The only thing you are grinding for is to not be underleveled in the Endgame.

And Bungie has always had a big problem with balance. They don't think much about things when they first design them. And then the only way they know how to get people to stop using something is gut the very soul from it.

The pinnacles, such as Mountaintop and Recluse, have actually been reasonably balanced now without being completely gutted. The former is so unique it could have just been changed to an Exotic and be fine if it were still that bad as of this time. Spare Rations wouldn't be the only HC if they didn't gut the range on the overall weapon type so damn much. Before that there were plenty of options. Not to mention they refuse to give other guns similar sets of good perks to make other things worth getting and using instead. Mindbender's? For one, shotties just plain shouldn't have Quickdraw, period, IMO. ESPECIALLY the slow firing aggressive frames that now have no drawback thanks to that perk. Similar deal for Snipers. No one likes the long zooms if they have the option to choose shorter ones. And Revoker was a complete mistake to begin with. They should have learned from D1 year 3 not to break the PvP ammo economy after Icebreaker and Invective.

As for Exotics? Once again, Bungie typically gets WAY too overzealous when they nerf something. And if 80% of them weren't lame, gimmicky garbage people might actually use more of them.

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1 hour ago, SMARTAN 427 said:

Well, having to keep grinding for literal reskins of the exact same meh weapons is not 'worth' it either. Sunsetting only makes it artificially so by literally requiring you to just grind for a new one. And they haven't even done that right since people are already doing it for Gnawing Hunger, for example. All literally just so that a single number is bigger. So arbitrary.

I mean, leveling up and stuff IS supposed to make you at least FEEL more powerful anyway. But that has traditionally been a bust since in Destiny level 1 patrol enemies still hit you for about the same amount. The only thing you are grinding for is to not be underleveled in the Endgame.

I'm not saying that the formula can't be tweaked or improved, but either way you look at it you are playing a looter shooter / mmo. That's the name of the game, but something Destiny doesn't do as well as other games is the amount of gear that is added. With other expansions they give you vast amounts of new gear where Destiny might give you 2 or 3 gear sets and a handful of guns. Which is why they give you 6 months or whatever it is to continually use these weapons until they are phased out.

To each their own. I've played more Destiny when there is actually something to grind for rather than just using new weapons/gear as fusion fodder.

1 hour ago, SMARTAN 427 said:

And Bungie has always had a big problem with balance. They don't think much about things when they first design them. And then the only way they know how to get people to stop using something is gut the very soul from it.

Yeah I think that's pretty apparent.

1 hour ago, SMARTAN 427 said:

The pinnacles, such as Mountaintop and Recluse, have actually been reasonably balanced now without being completely gutted. The former is so unique it could have just been changed to an Exotic and be fine if it were still that bad as of this time. Spare Rations wouldn't be the only HC if they didn't gut the range on the overall weapon type so damn much. Before that there were plenty of options. Not to mention they refuse to give other guns similar sets of good perks to make other things worth getting and using instead. Mindbender's? For one, shotties just plain shouldn't have Quickdraw, period, IMO. ESPECIALLY the slow firing aggressive frames that now have no drawback thanks to that perk. Similar deal for Snipers. No one likes the long zooms if they have the option to choose shorter ones. And Revoker was a complete mistake to begin with. They should have learned from D1 year 3 not to break the PvP ammo economy after Icebreaker and Invective.

As for Exotics? Once again, Bungie typically gets WAY too overzealous when they nerf something. And if 80% of them weren't lame, gimmicky garbage people might actually use more of them.

Not really. Mountaintop still out DPS' every grenade launcher (and pretty much every kinect) by a good margin. Recluse, even with its nerf, is only out done when match game is enabled. I mean Thorn is still good, TLW is good in the right hands, Dire Promise, Crimson, just to name a few others. They still don't outclass Spare Rations though and nothing has since its release. Thats the problem, these guns have been at the top of the food chain for so long that its boring. They have to introduce things like Champions to force people to play out of their comfort zone or the Reckoning that pushes the best gear to its limits.

Sure, everything could be balanced better. Bungie doesn't really touch PVP meta unless something is truly broken.

 

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55 minutes ago, Nokt said:

I'm not saying that the formula can't be tweaked or improved, but either way you look at it you are playing a looter shooter / mmo. That's the name of the game, but something Destiny doesn't do as well as other games is the amount of gear that is added. With other expansions they give you vast amounts of new gear where Destiny might give you 2 or 3 gear sets and a handful of guns. Which is why they give you 6 months or whatever it is to continually use these weapons until they are phased out.

To each their own. I've played more Destiny when there is actually something to grind for rather than just using new weapons/gear as fusion fodder.

Yeah I think that's pretty apparent.

Not really. Mountaintop still out DPS' every grenade launcher (and pretty much every kinect) by a good margin. Recluse, even with its nerf, is only out done when match game is enabled. I mean Thorn is still good, TLW is good in the right hands, Dire Promise, Crimson, just to name a few others. They still don't outclass Spare Rations though and nothing has since its release. Thats the problem, these guns have been at the top of the food chain for so long that its boring. They have to introduce things like Champions to force people to play out of their comfort zone or the Reckoning that pushes the best gear to its limits.

Sure, everything could be balanced better. Bungie doesn't really touch PVP meta unless something is truly broken.

 

The infusion system was the most ingenious thing they came up with in The Taken King, IMO. I mean, once you find a gun that you are happy with, why should you be forced to arbitrarily put it down due to leveling? Especially when the replacements don't have the same feel, look, sights, perks and role functions. It isn't my fault that they are awful at giving me interesting things to go for. Hell, with the way they have been designing MOST Exotic weapons to be super situational and unique, I feel like the limit on how many Exotics you can use at once itself hinders how mixed a loadout can be.

And I guess that I just think from a Halo perspective too much. Which is Ironic considering part of the reason I enjoyed playing Destiny is that it reminded me of everything I liked about Halo 4 (which is just about everything traditional Halo fans hate about it).

I'm all for having as many things be viable as possible in PvE. But I feel that the ridiculous grindiness and notoriously unforgiving RNG on drops is a big part of why people just resort to maximum meta stuff. Because people want to get something to drop/be completed ASAP, so they figure out the fastest and most efficient way to farm the game possible. The game design doesn't help itself with this.

As far as Mountaintop goes, I didn't realize that it went back to literally being on top again. Last time I checked, it was good for it's versatility along with ammo sustain, but wasn't the best for actual max DPS. And for Recluse, when I last played I was starting to lean an awful lot more to other crowd control options such as various Exotics, and many SMGs along with the then newly buffed Auto Rifles, all with better range and larger mag sizes.

The whole Champion perk thing has been interesting but so pourly implemented. The ways that you have to defeat them could be integrated into the overall sandbox design, instead of being tacked on via certain perks that only apply to certain weapons.

As for Spare Rations and PvP, there was a time when 140s were a popular choice, such as Ace of Spades, and even 180s such as Trust. That was all in the same sandbox as SR. What really killed HC diversity was the severe range nerf that all archetypes indiscriminately had. So of course, people will just gravitate towards the most constistent HC where it has both the most range AND fastest killtime, Last Word and damage buff perks notwithstanding. They have refused to address that issue since.

Sunsetting does nothing to fix the underlying problem IMO. Just artificially and arbitrarily force people to use newer stuff. I've been having to slowly come to expect that Destiny has fully embraced a genre and design philosophy that I just don't enjoy. Yeah, I am still pissed about it, especially with the previous time and money already previously spent. And on top of it, with content vaulting, I won't even be able to go back and play the stuff that I still liked all this time. Nope. Not allowed to have even that, either. Not much reason for me to stay, then.

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3 hours ago, SMARTAN 427 said:

The infusion system was the most ingenious thing they came up with in The Taken King, IMO. I mean, once you find a gun that you are happy with, why should you be forced to arbitrarily put it down due to leveling? Especially when the replacements don't have the same feel, look, sights, perks and role functions. It isn't my fault that they are awful at giving me interesting things to go for. Hell, with the way they have been designing MOST Exotic weapons to be super situational and unique, I feel like the limit on how many Exotics you can use at once itself hinders how mixed a loadout can be.

And I guess that I just think from a Halo perspective too much. Which is Ironic considering part of the reason I enjoyed playing Destiny is that it reminded me of everything I liked about Halo 4 (which is just about everything traditional Halo fans hate about it).

I guess thats just my difference in expectations. Shooter Looters (and to some degree MMO's) are all about getting that new gun and experimenting with builds. Destiny doesn't fulfill that at all. I agree that it cool that you can keep those favorite guns with you as you level, but when these specifics guns continually top the charts whats the point anymore? My fun in the game is gone, I can only run so many strikes, get a group for raids, play gambit and crucible so many times before I'm over it. Destiny's content isn't up to snuff with a typical MMO experience, if the looter shooter aspect runs dry, whats left?

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I'm all for having as many things be viable as possible in PvE. But I feel that the ridiculous grindiness and notoriously unforgiving RNG on drops is a big part of why people just resort to maximum meta stuff. Because people want to get something to drop/be completed ASAP, so they figure out the fastest and most efficient way to farm the game possible. The game design doesn't help itself with this.

I mean grinding and RNG isn't fun, but I've spent more time grinding mounts in total in WoW than I have getting god rolls. There definitely is much worse out there than what Destiny is presenting to us. Not that its an acceptable answer, just putting things in a different perspective.

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As far as Mountaintop goes, I didn't realize that it went back to literally being on top again. Last time I checked, it was good for it's versatility along with ammo sustain, but wasn't the best for actual max DPS. And for Recluse, when I last played I was starting to lean an awful lot more to other crowd control options such as various Exotics, and many SMGs along with the then newly buffed Auto Rifles, all with better range and larger mag sizes.

Mountaintop is currently 8th most used in comp, 6th in quickplay, and 3rd in PvE. Recluse is 5th. Thelegendhimself has a video on recluse about 3 months ago and due to its perk it barley loses out to some kinetic SMGs. The thing about recluse though it that it melts shields while kinetics can't. It even melts shields that aren't its energy type.

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The whole Champion perk thing has been interesting but so pourly implemented. The ways that you have to defeat them could be integrated into the overall sandbox design, instead of being tacked on via certain perks that only apply to certain weapons.

Thats what I mean. They are forcing new gameplay experiences because everyone just continually uses the same weapons until a nerf/buff patch comes through.

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As for Spare Rations and PvP, there was a time when 140s were a popular choice, such as Ace of Spades, and even 180s such as Trust. That was all in the same sandbox as SR. What really killed HC diversity was the severe range nerf that all archetypes indiscriminately had. So of course, people will just gravitate towards the most constistent HC where it has both the most range AND fastest killtime, Last Word and damage buff perks notwithstanding. They have refused to address that issue since.

I actually think this is probably one of the more healthy metas currently. HC's kind of got shafted, but still some viable options. There are a few viable pulse archetypes, autos might be a tad strong, but still can be outclassed by SR/Thorn if you hit your shots. If you don't mind not being able to snipe supers there are quite a few options or you can just use revoker. Shotguns are well.... the same as shotguns have always been.

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Sunsetting does nothing to fix the underlying problem IMO. Just artificially and arbitrarily force people to use newer stuff. I've been having to slowly come to expect that Destiny has fully embraced a genre and design philosophy that I just don't enjoy. Yeah, I am still pissed about it, especially with the previous time and money already previously spent. And on top of it, with content vaulting, I won't even be able to go back and play the stuff that I still liked all this time. Nope. Not allowed to have even that, either. Not much reason for me to stay, then.

I agree its not a perfect solution. I think a good step forward would be being able to infuse an older gun when it comes back into rotation. Like how lonesome has 2 variants right now, if you have a previous godroll you should be able to infuse it with a new lonesome and upgrade it to max LL potential. It will help reduce the need to grind for older guns that you already have and let you focus on grinding the newer weapons. Keep guns out of rotation for a little bit so other guns can shine for a bit and then bring it back.

I personally don't care that much about content vaulting, especially if it means I won't have to run Exodus Crash or do anything with Mercury for awhile. I get it though, we are losing raids and some of the more unique content like Whisper of the Worm.

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2 hours ago, Nokt said:

I guess thats just my difference in expectations. Shooter Looters (and to some degree MMO's) are all about getting that new gun and experimenting with builds. Destiny doesn't fulfill that at all. I agree that it cool that you can keep those favorite guns with you as you level, but when these specifics guns continually top the charts whats the point anymore? My fun in the game is gone, I can only run so many strikes, get a group for raids, play gambit and crucible so many times before I'm over it. Destiny's content isn't up to snuff with a typical MMO experience, if the looter shooter aspect runs dry, whats left?

I mean grinding and RNG isn't fun, but I've spent more time grinding mounts in total in WoW than I have getting god rolls. There definitely is much worse out there than what Destiny is presenting to us. Not that its an acceptable answer, just putting things in a different perspective.

Mountaintop is currently 8th most used in comp, 6th in quickplay, and 3rd in PvE. Recluse is 5th. Thelegendhimself has a video on recluse about 3 months ago and due to its perk it barley loses out to some kinetic SMGs. The thing about recluse though it that it melts shields while kinetics can't. It even melts shields that aren't its energy type.

Thats what I mean. They are forcing new gameplay experiences because everyone just continually uses the same weapons until a nerf/buff patch comes through.

I actually think this is probably one of the more healthy metas currently. HC's kind of got shafted, but still some viable options. There are a few viable pulse archetypes, autos might be a tad strong, but still can be outclassed by SR/Thorn if you hit your shots. If you don't mind not being able to snipe supers there are quite a few options or you can just use revoker. Shotguns are well.... the same as shotguns have always been.

I agree its not a perfect solution. I think a good step forward would be being able to infuse an older gun when it comes back into rotation. Like how lonesome has 2 variants right now, if you have a previous godroll you should be able to infuse it with a new lonesome and upgrade it to max LL potential. It will help reduce the need to grind for older guns that you already have and let you focus on grinding the newer weapons. Keep guns out of rotation for a little bit so other guns can shine for a bit and then bring it back.

I personally don't care that much about content vaulting, especially if it means I won't have to run Exodus Crash or do anything with Mercury for awhile. I get it though, we are losing raids and some of the more unique content like Whisper of the Worm.

Yeah see I personally play for the fun factor of the actual gameplay itself, not the chase for loot. That is a driving factor in my heavy criticism of the game right now. The thing that sucks is that Destiny IMO actually has a pretty fun gameplay loop in PvE of slaughtering huge armies of squishy adds, followed by melting a boss as fast as you can. Often best exemplified in Escalation Protocol, Menagerie type activities, and Altars of Sorrow. Forges and Reckoning are fun as well. With a little bit of extra mechanics here and there to keep it interesting. A lot of the Dungeons are great fun as well. Is traditional MMO gameplay and content (not the gear grind), actually that much better?

A lot of my time in Destiny has often been experimenting, learning, and optimizing different builds and styles, having a ton of fun and replayability in the process. I can't do that when the grind is so agonizing and the RNG so stingy that I have to keep using the best tried and true farming loadouts just stay at a relevant power level, and can't get the interesting perk combos to drop so that I can finally try new things that sound good and cool. Of course, THEN that gets stale during the grinding process, as I'm burnt out by the time I finally get what I want. Because it takes so long to get to the point of messing around.

As far as the mentioned weapons still being in the top handful of weapons used, I am generally kinda glad it is like that. Because then it means that even after getting nerfed, they are still relevant. Instead of fading into obscurity after being nerfed into the ground like other things. It always sounds like people simply see the same name after a while and then just want it nerfed so bad that nobody cares anymore, just so they can never see it again. I absolutely detest that. And all sunsetting will do is occasionally change the names. The gear being used will often essentially be the same in the end. Also, another reason pinnacles are used so much? Because after doing something, however difficult that something is, they are a still good, consistent roll that is 100% guaranteed to drop once you complete that something. As opposed to the RNG that mercilessly leaves you hanging more often than not.

I agree on how fairly good the sandbox balance otherwise currently is. Never in D1 were so many things viable at once, until everything eventually became 'equally' garbage after all the nerfs. To the point that the meme guns became meta. With the awesome pace of Destiny's PvP killtimes and gameplay, I do have a fun time playing that part still whenever I jump on.

IMO I could maybe be on board with sunsetting if infusing stuff just started to get more and more expensive as time went on. Have it cost Ascendant Shards after a while or something. I would already have to use something different in the meantime maybe, as long as I can have solace knowing that if I don't like anything, I can go back to my favorites in the end. Hell, make me infuse the new version of the thing into the well-rolled old one. Just as long as I don't have to find a new favorite and grind for it, AGAIN. I'm all down for potentially finding new favorites along the the way. But taking away the reliable options indefinitely, only to resell them back to me later AND have the audacity to make me grind for the specific roll or whatever again, just feels extremely off-putting and completely disregards all time previously spent. And I don't usually have as much time these days. I want to at least be able to enjoy what I have.

And for the content vaulting, for me it really is a matter of not even having the option to fall back on old content if I'm not up for the new. For better or worse. Getting Forsaken a season late but still being able to catch up on Vanilla D2, Curse of Osiris, Warmind, THEN Forsaken was exhausting, but I could then still talk to my friends about it and feel caught up. It wasn't anywhere near as grindy then. Now even the content will be/is FOMO. Impossible to take a break now.

Anyway, thanks for continuing to read and respond even if from a different perspective. It has made all this venting easier. I apologize for the text walls lol.

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I'm going to elaborate later my issues with sunsetting and why i believe it's nothing more than a scam.

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I have so many issues with sunsetting, I could write a book comparable to a sprint based rant in Halo. The following is a response I had in a heated Reddit discussion that I copied and pasted here, so please don't confuse my tone in it to be directed at any of you. I'm currently fighting against sunsetting on multiple fronts, and I'm incredibly disappointed that Bungie followed through with this disastrous decision, and definitely have more to add to this. This list is FAR from complete.

"Players want new gear and new ways to play, all the time. The notion that players don't want new gear and builds to work with is flat out bullshit. Absolutely nothing stops a Redrix user from grinding and enjoying a new pulse, especially when that pulse introduces new perks and gameplay options. If there are players that don't care about the new gear, so fucking what? I guarantee you there are plenty who DO care, and are happy to add something new to their arsenal. The only people unhappy? The worthless, holier than thou scrubs who get an aneurysm if they read (insert weapon here) on their death screen, or the annoying raid elitists that won't let you join unless you play exactly the way they tell you to. Neither of which are worth catering to.

Do you actually believe that players wouldn't use the new swords, or Bungie wouldn't have introduced them, unless they were FORCED to do so through sunsetting? Are you fucking kidding me? That's the hill you want to die on? The novelty and excitement alone would have achieved this. They introduced something unique and fun to the table, and sunsetting didn't need to do jack shit to achieve this.

Let me list off everything wrong with sunsetting in nice bullet points for you:

1.  Power level is shallow and arbitrary. It serves no purpose beyond inducing grind and being a "be this tall to ride" system. Therefore it's  not a legitimate reason for gear to be traded out, because there is no gain.

2. MMO gear grants measurable increases to player power because they serve as "stat sticks". They can do this because gear doesn't serve as the primary way of interacting with the game, your skillbar does. Destiny weaponry isn't comparable to MMO gear, and has more in common with skills on a skillbar. The decision to swap out gear is easy when it's objectively stronger and doesn't change anything about the way you play. The same could be said for Borderlands which literally RAINS replacement, more powerful loot on you. Again, we're not getting stronger in Destiny, by design.

3. Magic the Gathering uses anti consumer practices to psychological abuse its fans by forcing them into gambling for new decks, and should not be some positive outline from a professional dev for game design. Old cards however, don't suddenly lose value or become unplayable. All new cards work just fine alongside old, outside of some some rare exceptions that usually involves a reworked old card. The tournaments they hold with newer deck restrictions, are for promotional reasons only, not gameplay health like Bungie claims. Most the old gear in Destiny is perfectly compatible with new gear, outside of weapons that haven't been updated.

4. The new gear we get is either on par, worse or reintroduced. If on par, then the gear has no excuse to be separate from the old gear because it's not different enough to be considered an outlier. If worse, then the gear wouldn't have been desirable to begin with and slapping an arbitrary power number next to it wouldn't change this fact. Shit gear with higher power is still shit. If reintroduced, it means there was nothing wrong with the weapon to begin with and should have never been sunset. 

5. The masterworking economy demands too much resources for only temporary gear. 

6. Every piece of gear now has an arbitrary expiration date, which actually produces nothing but apathy towards any new gear. There's  no point in buildcrafting or grinding if the gear lacks permanence to your characters growth.

7. Stating that we can use gear outside of end game content is a blatant lie meant to pathetically save face. Higher power content bleeds into the public space all the time, not to mention that endgame content is the reason most people pay/play for, and where the vast majority of dev resources go. Everyone will be effectively forced into the new gear, for all content, or you can't participate. There is no choice.

8. Hilariously so, if meta shifting is the goal of sunsetting, then it fails spectacularly in the majority of PvP, because general Crucible and Ranked play isn't affected by it, so what's the fucking point? If the old meta was bad enough to justify sunsetting, then why doesn't it effect the area where it would arguably make the biggest difference? The meta shift excuse is a lie.

9. I use my gear I like, you use your gear you like. Very simple concept. Anyone who approves sunsetting on the basis of forcing players off their gear is the literal definition of a scrub. Scrub mentality is an incrediblely toxic basis for a loot system, and doesn't deserve to be taken seriously by anyone.

So what does this all point to? Sunsetting was NEVER for the benefit of the player, because it fails every job it's supposedly claimed to do by its shill supporters and incompetent devs. It's a hamster wheel without end or goal in sight, where running for the sake of running is apparently the only value."

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22 hours ago, The Tyco said:

I have so many issues with sunsetting, I could write a book comparable to a sprint based rant in Halo. The following is a response I had in a heated Reddit discussion that I copied and pasted here, so please don't confuse my tone in it to be directed at any of you. I'm currently fighting against sunsetting on multiple fronts, and I'm incredibly disappointed that Bungie followed through with this disastrous decision, and definitely have more to add to this. This list is FAR from complete.

"Players want new gear and new ways to play, all the time. The notion that players don't want new gear and builds to work with is flat out bullshit. Absolutely nothing stops a Redrix user from grinding and enjoying a new pulse, especially when that pulse introduces new perks and gameplay options. If there are players that don't care about the new gear, so fucking what? I guarantee you there are plenty who DO care, and are happy to add something new to their arsenal. The only people unhappy? The worthless, holier than thou scrubs who get an aneurysm if they read (insert weapon here) on their death screen, or the annoying raid elitists that won't let you join unless you play exactly the way they tell you to. Neither of which are worth catering to.

Do you actually believe that players wouldn't use the new swords, or Bungie wouldn't have introduced them, unless they were FORCED to do so through sunsetting? Are you fucking kidding me? That's the hill you want to die on? The novelty and excitement alone would have achieved this. They introduced something unique and fun to the table, and sunsetting didn't need to do jack shit to achieve this.

I agree, but people will only use new weapons provided they actually do decent damage. Look at bows, relatively unused in the meta since their introduction. You have a small group of PvPers who will use them, pretty much never have been meta except when Wish Ender had that glitch and did 4x the damage. How many people glossed over True Prophecy once they found out it was a 180 HC, even Martyr's Retribution was a unique and fun to use GL, didn't do more than mountaintop though so nobody bothered.

22 hours ago, The Tyco said:

Let me list off everything wrong with sunsetting in nice bullet points for you:

1.  Power level is shallow and arbitrary. It serves no purpose beyond inducing grind and being a "be this tall to ride" system. Therefore it's  not a legitimate reason for gear to be traded out, because there is no gain.

I agree, but the same could be said for pretty much any RPG or game with RPG mechanics. I'm not trying to defend game design or say that things can't be changed for the better, but you should have some idea of what you're getting into. Destiny has historically sunset gear throughout its lifetime even Destiny 2 has sunset a ton of early gear prior to this announcement.

22 hours ago, The Tyco said:

2. MMO gear grants measurable increases to player power because they serve as "stat sticks". They can do this because gear doesn't serve as the primary way of interacting with the game, your skillbar does. Destiny weaponry isn't comparable to MMO gear, and has more in common with skills on a skillbar. The decision to swap out gear is easy when it's objectively stronger and doesn't change anything about the way you play. The same could be said for Borderlands which literally RAINS replacement, more powerful loot on you. Again, we're not getting stronger in Destiny, by design.

Yeah this is where Destiny takes a different approach. They literally don't have the content to match a traditional MMO or looter shooter so they just make the world around you grow with you or they cap your LL as to not breeze through the content. Sunsetting definitely is not a good compromise for this issue.

22 hours ago, The Tyco said:

3. Magic the Gathering uses anti consumer practices to psychological abuse its fans by forcing them into gambling for new decks, and should not be some positive outline from a professional dev for game design. Old cards however, don't suddenly lose value or become unplayable. All new cards work just fine alongside old, outside of some some rare exceptions that usually involves a reworked old card. The tournaments they hold with newer deck restrictions, are for promotional reasons only, not gameplay health like Bungie claims. Most the old gear in Destiny is perfectly compatible with new gear, outside of weapons that haven't been updated.

4. The new gear we get is either on par, worse or reintroduced. If on par, then the gear has no excuse to be separate from the old gear because it's not different enough to be considered an outlier. If worse, then the gear wouldn't have been desirable to begin with and slapping an arbitrary power number next to it wouldn't change this fact. Shit gear with higher power is still shit. If reintroduced, it means there was nothing wrong with the weapon to begin with and should have never been sunset.

I think this is a good point about new items not being up to snuff, but I think it also identifies another issue. Bungie is horrible at balancing weapons and gear. Meta gear has 2 paths. Nerfed into the ground or nerfed enough that its still better than anything else in its category. Not to mention that so many items get left in the dust because they never get retooled to be useful in any sense. A lot of the time we just get sweeping weapon balances, specific archetypes if we get lucky, very rarely do we get specific weapon balances.

22 hours ago, The Tyco said:

5. The masterworking economy demands too much resources for only temporary gear.

Agreed

22 hours ago, The Tyco said:

6. Every piece of gear now has an arbitrary expiration date, which actually produces nothing but apathy towards any new gear. There's  no point in buildcrafting or grinding if the gear lacks permanence to your characters growth.

This kind of goes back to point 2 and 3. Most, if not all, buildcrafting is built around an exotic weapon/gear which will not be sunsetting. Anecdotal, but I personally almost never see people buildcraft out of popular meta items. Even people like cammycakes have expressed frustration with this, they want to jump in pvp and mess around with builds and see whats possible and there is always that group of people running spare rations & beloved/mindbenders or revoker & summoner/hardlight with meta exotics that he just can't put up with. So he switches to the same build to get through the match.

22 hours ago, The Tyco said:

7. Stating that we can use gear outside of end game content is a blatant lie meant to pathetically save face. Higher power content bleeds into the public space all the time, not to mention that endgame content is the reason most people pay/play for, and where the vast majority of dev resources go. Everyone will be effectively forced into the new gear, for all content, or you can't participate. There is no choice.

Agreed

22 hours ago, The Tyco said:

8. Hilariously so, if meta shifting is the goal of sunsetting, then it fails spectacularly in the majority of PvP, because general Crucible and Ranked play isn't affected by it, so what's the fucking point? If the old meta was bad enough to justify sunsetting, then why doesn't it effect the area where it would arguably make the biggest difference? The meta shift excuse is a lie.

Competitive is essentially useless at this point now that Trials is back and it does get affected by this change. IB is also extremely popular when its going. Quickplay is meant for everyone to play. PvE will see a pretty big shift from Mountaintop and Recluse being sunset. Those are still 2 highly used weapons.

22 hours ago, The Tyco said:

9. I use my gear I like, you use your gear you like. Very simple concept. Anyone who approves sunsetting on the basis of forcing players off their gear is the literal definition of a scrub. Scrub mentality is an incrediblely toxic basis for a loot system, and doesn't deserve to be taken seriously by anyone.

So what does this all point to? Sunsetting was NEVER for the benefit of the player, because it fails every job it's supposedly claimed to do by its shill supporters and incompetent devs. It's a hamster wheel without end or goal in sight, where running for the sake of running is apparently the only value."

Yeah I'm not really in the camp of "sunsetting is great". Its providing bandaid fixes and causing just as many problems with Destiny as a whole. That said I'm not as resistant to it as a lot of the community is.

 

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New Expansion looks good as fuck! I'm more excited for this than Halo!

 

 

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