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RTX Halo 4 Tournament Discussion

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I'm combing the pit, sanc and narrows for that ultimate nostalgia. 

Combine Chiron, Backwash and Sandtrap... They won't know what hit em :kappa:

 

Not sure where you saw that but pro mod has never been on the table, and h4 will lead into the future if h3 would have been voted in we would not have kept it longer then the first season.

IG, put a muzzle on this guy. He's tanking your rep.

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Man, we have Proverb running around saying stupid stuff... about how Halo 3 was never a 'real' option and IG would have dropped it after first season, had it won... Can someone from IG who actually has half a brain confirm/deny this statement. Because if that's true, that's a big blow for your claim that you "care about the community"

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I'm the Director of Production at Iron Gaming. We've all been working very hard to insure two things and two things only. Our events will happen and you will get paid as instantly as possible. We are not and never were AGL. We helped support them, for free, during several of their events. We felt it was a marketing opportunity for us to do so. We lost money when Brad skipped out. We weren't able to find Brad either.

 

We have been a partner with HiRez for quite some time. The truth is Brad had the experience they were looking for and they choose to forgive his past mistakes. They also leaned on him heavily to get everyone paid back. Brad simply got in over his head and made mistakes. Which is why our only and main focus is to get everyone paid ASAP after our events and to make sure everyone has a good time at the event. Everything else is secondary. We are not a Halo company. We are an eSports company that has let the community decide which games it would like to play.

 

We are in this for the long haul. We have a vision of multiple one day eSports events around the country. This is setup to encourage amateur live play as well as online play. Most importantly, we believe in a true spectator experience. We want to remove the 3 day hotel fees and travel expenses from current LAN events. We want you to drive in, have a good day, and drive home. Hopefully with winnings in your pocket. We want kids and their parents to come in on a Saturday night get a hot dog and a drink and watch our finals for that event. This vision goes further than just one game. Feel free to ask me any questions regarding Iron Gaming and I will answer them to the best of my ability. Up until a few months ago I was one of 3 employees. We have since expanded and put our blood, sweat, and tears into putting on competent well run events for all of our gaming communities.

 

Justin Hall

Director of Production

Iron Gaming

 

TL:DR- IG does not equal AGL. We only want you to have a good experience at our events, and take your winnings with you when you leave.

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Man, we have Proverb running around saying stupid stuff... about how Halo 3 was never a 'real' option and IG would have dropped it after first season, had it won... Can someone from IG who actually has half a brain confirm/deny this statement. Because if that's true, that's a big blow for your claim that you "care about the community"

We had open voting. Halo 4 beat out Halo 3. Halo 3 was absolutely a real option. Literally any game was a real option. Made up games were a real option. Halo 4 won.

 

http://youtu.be/Rop9BDHw39c?t=3m51s

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A company's primary goal is to make customers happy; in this case, end users who are interested in Halo. If the tournaments don´t get viewers they have to change the business model. When starting up and running a business you should identify how to capture customer interest. IG has unfortunately failed in many respects and thus they have spent a lot of potential customers' interest. As a consumer of Halo, I have roughly the same standards of quality as when I consume other services or products. It is somewhat naive to talk about "all must work together to get what we want.” As a consumer I have the choice to select products. I will not feel bad that I criticize a company that is acting naive and unprofessional regardless if it benefits Halo or not. I've actually never experienced a company trying to blame me as the end customer that I don’t consume their product.

With that said, I must conclude that I fervently hope that IG succeeds in their goals. But as a consumer I have the same reference scale as when I choose other products. Simple as that!

 

Talking trash may seem a bit immature but hey…say a company that never gets criticized? It is the name of the game and serious companies use this critique to become even better! A company should never talk trash about their customers in any way. And customers in this case are every person that has a potential interest to watch the tournaments.

 

My advice to IG is to merge the communication and marketing and not post randomly in different social media. That usually just looks unprofessional.

 

I sincererly hope IG can deliver great tournaments and I will watch every second. But IG must convince me, not the other way around.

 

We want to convince everyone. We don't imagine we'll just fly in and be perfect. We don't imagine we have your respect. I would be lying to say I expected this much criticism so soon. Halo seems to be a jaded community that's been burnt. We'll be working hard to earn your trust and respect.

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I'm the Director of Production at Iron Gaming. We've all been working very hard to insure two things and two things only. Our events will happen and you will get paid as instantly as possible. We are not and never were AGL. We helped support them, for free, during several of their events. We felt it was a marketing opportunity for us to do so. We lost money when Brad skipped out. We weren't able to find Brad either.

 

We have been a partner with HiRez for quite some time. The truth is Brad had the experience they were looking for and they choose to forgive his past mistakes. They also leaned on him heavily to get everyone paid back. Brad simply got in over his head and made mistakes. Which is why our only and main focus is to get everyone paid ASAP after our events and to make sure everyone has a good time at the event. Everything else is secondary. We are not a Halo company. We are an eSports company that has let the community decide which games it would like to play.

 

We are in this for the long haul. We have a vision of multiple one day eSports events around the country. This is setup to encourage amateur live play as well as online play. Most importantly, we believe in a true spectator experience. We want to remove the 3 day hotel fees and travel expenses from current LAN events. We want you to drive in, have a good day, and drive home. Hopefully with winnings in your pocket. We want kids and their parents to come in on a Saturday night get a hot dog and a drink and watch our finals for that event. This vision goes further than just one game. Feel free to ask me any questions regarding Iron Gaming and I will answer them to the best of my ability. Up until a few months ago I was one of 3 employees. We have since expanded and put our blood, sweat, and tears into putting on competent well run events for all of our gaming communities.

 

Justin Hall

Director of Production

Iron Gaming

 

TL:DR- IG does not equal AGL. We only want you to have a good experience at our events, and take your winnings with you when you leave.

 

Sounds like Iron Gaming is trying to become MLG v2 based on your post, which is fine but don't expect any type of rallying support from communities.  Since you are an "eSport Business" I am expecting the same behavior that we have seen from MLG - If the game is not profitable it is dropped.  It is logical, but from a community standpoint it can be frustrating. 

 

Some things to consider:

 

- Many people treat MLG events as a vacation, they dont go expecting to make money.  MLG hosts events in cool locations and cities for entire weekends - which adds to their experience.  You can not only spectate and compete in your favorite game, you can also explore a cool city that you probably have not visited before (Orlando, Dallas, Meadowlands, Chicago, Anaheim, Vegas, etc).  I personally would not travel out of state for a 1 day event, then mix in that the first Iron Gaming event is in Toledo Ohio I believe? I live in Cleveland and to keep things sugar coated: Toledo isn't exactly a prime location for an event.

 

- Host your events in appealing locations.

 

- Drop the egos, listen to community feedback because these people are your potential "customers" from a business standpoint.

 

 

Also as a sidenote, the voting system you guys implemented was easily manipulated.  Do not be surprised if the turnout for Halo 4 does not reflect the voting stats.

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-snip-

We are in this for the long haul. We have a vision of multiple one day eSports events around the country. This is setup to encourage amateur live play as well as online play. Most importantly, we believe in a true spectator experience. We want to remove the 3 day hotel fees and travel expenses from current LAN events. We want you to drive in, have a good day, and drive home. Hopefully with winnings in your pocket. We want kids and their parents to come in on a Saturday night get a hot dog and a drink and watch our finals for that event. This vision goes further than just one game. Feel free to ask me any questions regarding Iron Gaming and I will answer them to the best of my ability. Up until a few months ago I was one of 3 employees. We have since expanded and put our blood, sweat, and tears into putting on competent well run events for all of our gaming communities.

 

I was able to have a long talk with Proverb last night, and this is the one part I didn't understand at all, which is your business model. What you are implying is that for IG to be successful you are wanting to have smaller tournaments over a range of locations (which cuts travel costs, hotel, etc). With this you are implying that LAN centers (or something equivalent) would be hosting these events. The fact is LAN centers are money pits, and are completely nonviable (in America at least). People don't want to come out to a venue and spend money, they want to watch live streams. People think that live streams are these great revenue streams, when they simply aren't. Sure individual streams can make really good money, but they also have practically 0 cost of operation (compared to a tournament stream with producers, casters, etc).

 

I understand Proverb's role is tournament organization, but I was hoping you could give me some insight to how you feel running a year old game with population numbers >10000, or even a larger title (which I also feel is nonviable.) 

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I was able to have a long talk with Proverb last night, and this is the one part I didn't understand at all, which is your business model. What you are implying is that for IG to be successful you are wanting to have smaller tournaments over a range of locations (which cuts travel costs, hotel, etc). With this you are implying that LAN centers (or something equivalent) would be hosting these events. The fact is LAN centers are money pits, and are completely nonviable (in America at least). People don't want to come out to a venue and spend money, they want to watch live streams. People think that live streams are these great revenue streams, when they simply aren't. Sure individual streams can make really good money, but they also have practically 0 cost of operation (compared to a tournament stream with producers, casters, etc).

 

I understand Proverb's role is tournament organization, but I was hoping you could give me some insight to how you feel running a year old game with population numbers >10000, or even a larger title (which I also feel is nonviable.) 

 

I honestly can't reveal our entire plan yet. Let's just say that we know we can streamline events. LAN centers are money pits for themselves. We aren't LAN centers. 3 day events are money pits, too. Live streams are money pits... for now. Esports is a money pit.... for now. The trend that we and our investors are seeing says that is about to change. Coca-cola sponsoring LCS is a big enough indicator. More people watch LCS than the BCS. Why does it get a fraction of the ad revenue? Esports is at a tipping point where real ad dollars are going to come into play.

 

I'll put it this way. I've spent the last 15 years working at television stations. The last one I worked at made 25 million dollars a year. They probably never had 30,000 people in our market watching at once. Yet some pro on a  webcam has 30,000 people watching him play League right now. He isn't making 25 million dollars this year. Why? He's reaching one of the golden calfs of advertising in terms of demo. 18-35 males. That's about to change in a  big way. 

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I understand Proverb's role is tournament organization, but I was hoping you could give me some insight to how you feel running a year old game with population numbers >10000, or even a larger title (which I also feel is nonviable.) 

 

We're thrilled to be running Halo. It's underserved and easily our biggest opportunity over the next few months is RTX. Rooster Teeth reaches thousands of Halo fans so we imagine it's a really great fit actually.

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I honestly can't reveal our entire plan yet. Let's just say that we know we can streamline events. LAN centers are money pits for themselves. We aren't LAN centers. 3 day events are money pits, too. Live streams are money pits... for now. Esports is a money pit.... for now. The trend that we and our investors are seeing says that is about to change. Coca-cola sponsoring LCS is a big enough indicator. More people watch LCS than the BCS. Why does it get a fraction of the ad revenue? Esports is at a tipping point where real ad dollars are going to come into play.

 

I'll put it this way. I've spent the last 15 years working at television stations. The last one I worked at made 25 million dollars a year. They probably never had 30,000 people in our market watching at once. Yet some pro on a  webcam has 30,000 people watching him play League right now. He isn't making 25 million dollars this year. Why? He's reaching one of the golden calfs of advertising in terms of demo. 18-35 males. That's about to change in a  big way. 

 

I understand you are not the actual LAN centers hosting the events, but you are reliant on them. I understand that eSports will be viable in the future, look at its growth in the last year, but right now you are pouring money into last gen titles that have no market. I am not sure how much you know about the LCS, but it doesn't run any advertisements (maybe an initial one, but hey that is what Ad Block is for, which is also another huge reason ad revenue isn't as strong as it could be) other then that they have paid advertisements on stream (Coke and GOT as you mentioned).

 

The money is being made, it is being made by Twitch. I know Proverb mentioned that you are not planning on directly competing with MLG, but I still don't see where IG fits into things. If they see that you are starting to profit in a market that they have invested in for the last 12 years then they will simply bully you out with name recognition. No one competes with MLB or the NFL, how do you think IG is supposed to?

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Also as a sidenote, the voting system you guys implemented was easily manipulated.  Do not be surprised if the turnout for Halo 4 does not reflect the voting stats.

This bit is extremely important @@IGJustin

 

 

 

I will genuinely be shocked if you pull more than 15 teams out to LAN Halo 4. I feel a lot of the votes were simply by people who wanted to watch H4 on stream.

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We're thrilled to be running Halo. It's underserved and easily our biggest opportunity over the next few months is RTX. Rooster Teeth reaches thousands of Halo fans so we imagine it's a really great fit actually.

Thousands of fans is nothing. You are talking about what 20k in prize money alone? (This is not including cost of production, staff, etc) How are you supposed to recoup that money? Not to mention Rooster Teeth appeals to a very very casual crowd of Halo.

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This bit is extremely important @IGJustin 

 

I will genuinely be shocked if you pull more than 15 teams out to LAN Halo 4. I feel a lot of the votes were simply by people who wanted to watch H4 on stream.

 

Sam makes an excellent point. Your top game only pulled 1000 votes. Proverb mentioned he was surprised that Halo won, but he feels it is because of a grass roots twitter movement by people like Bravo etc who reach thousands of followers. As you should know, 1000 people is jack shit. I know you are partnered with Hi Rez who hosted the launch tournament for 100,000 (significantly more then any Halo prize pool you are going to offer) for a FREE TO PLAY GAME on PC. If I am not mistaken they only reach a peak of 30,000 viewers. Important things to note...

 

1) PC games will always be more popular due to a larger install base.

2) Free to play games will always be more popular due to a lack of barrier to entry.

3) This was a launch tournament with a good prize, and still didn't break what your top league streamers pull viewership wise.

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- Many people treat MLG events as a vacation, they dont go expecting to make money.  MLG hosts events in cool locations and cities for entire weekends - which adds to their experience.  You can not only spectate and compete in your favorite game, you can also explore a cool city that you probably have not visited before (Orlando, Dallas, Meadowlands, Chicago, Anaheim, Vegas, etc).  I personally would not travel out of state for a 1 day event, then mix in that the first Iron Gaming event is in Toledo Ohio I believe? I live in Cleveland and to keep things sugar coated: Toledo isn't exactly a prime location for an event.

 

- Host your events in appealing locations.

 

 

Appealing locations are fine if you want to pay more all around to put on your event. Which is why we're at Conventions for our biggest events in Atlanta and Austin. Both of which will be multi day events. I'm just trying to illustrate where we as a company feel eSports should head. We've been to MLG events. They're spectacles. Although I'd hardly call Columbus the most appealing of vacation spots. We did have a blast though, don't get me wrong.

 

 

- Drop the egos, listen to community feedback because these people are your potential "customers" from a business standpoint.

 

 

We want to convince everyone. We don't imagine we'll just fly in and be perfect. We don't imagine we have your respect. I would be lying to say I expected this much criticism so soon. Halo seems to be a jaded community that's been burnt. We'll be working hard to earn your trust and respect.

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Thousands of fans is nothing. You are talking about what 20k in prize money alone? (This is not including cost of production, staff, etc) How are you supposed to recoup that money? Not to mention Rooster Teeth appeals to a very very casual crowd of Halo.

 

Meh I feel like the crowd at last years RTX for the H4GC Qualifier was pretty good.

 

Slightly off topic, minus RvB it appears that even Rooster Teeth is struggling with Halo with their shows like Fails of the Week expanding to other Halo games and Achievement PIG becoming Achievement HUNT involving other games besides Halo.

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I have a feeling that this is just gonna be a disaster.  No one wants to watch Halo 4, and even less people want to play that horrible game.

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Thousands of fans is nothing. You are talking about what 20k in prize money alone? (This is not including cost of production, staff, etc) How are you supposed to recoup that money? Not to mention Rooster Teeth appeals to a very very casual crowd of Halo.

 

We're losing money. That's what startups do. We aren't recouping that money this year. Chalk it up as marketing money. You are correct Rooster Teeth is a very casual crowd. Which is the whole point. We want communities to grow. We want viewership of eSports to grow.

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Meh I feel like the crowd at last years RTX for the H4GC Qualifier was pretty good.

 

Slightly off topic, minus RvB it appears that even Rooster Teeth is struggling with Halo with their shows like Fails of the Week expanding to other Halo games and Achievement PIG becoming Achievement HUNT involving other games besides Halo.

 

Rooster Teeth is expanding into new markets because they're smart. When you win the lottery, don't just sink all your money in one stock. Diversify. 

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Rooster Teeth is expanding into new markets because they're smart. When you win the lottery, don't just sink all your money in one stock. Diversify.

 

And I agree.

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Appealing locations are fine if you want to pay more all around to put on your event. Which is why we're at Conventions for our biggest events in Atlanta and Austin. Both of which will be multi day events. I'm just trying to illustrate where we as a company feel eSports should head. We've been to MLG events. They're spectacles. Although I'd hardly call Columbus the most appealing of vacation spots. We did have a blast though, don't get me wrong.

 

I read your quote about "You want to convince everyone and earn respect" That is cool and I am glad we finally have a representative from Iron Gaming that is competent enough to hold a worthwhile conversation with - without nonsense and dramatics. 

 

However, I hope you realize Aaron I believe his name is, (Whoever owns Iron Gaming) Has been putting out vibes that are directly opposite of what you just said.  Really seems like Iron Gaming would much rather skip the "Earning respect and convincing people" portion, and fast forward to glory and super stardom.  Not trying to cause issues or create any arguments, but on my end based on the interaction I have seen from owners / Iron Gaming staff - that is the only conclusion that seems logical.  

 

Also having a booth at RTX is pretty cool and Rooster Teeth does reach a large fanbase, but you have to understand that Rooster Teeth makes Halo Machinima videos.  They do Minecraft lets plays, and achievement hunter videos.  They market to a more "Casual" audience that is not interested in hardcore competitive gameplay, but rather a more laid back fun experience - keep that in mind when reviewing stream numbers / attendance. 

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I have a feeling that this is just gonna be a disaster.  No one wants to watch Halo 4, and even less people want to play that horrible game.

 

Maybe. We don't know. But we're willing to get it the best try possible and hopefully we can lead this right into Halo 5 tournaments in maybe 2015... We feel ultimately it doesn't matter if only 50 people watch. If the winners get paid and the event goes off smoothly for participants. We still get the street cred. 

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We want to convince everyone. We don't imagine we'll just fly in and be perfect. We don't imagine we have your respect. I would be lying to say I expected this much criticism so soon. Halo seems to be a jaded community that's been burnt. We'll be working hard to earn your trust and respect.

I think most of us have lived with Halo since 2001 and well....the last years have been rough on spartans. The current state of the franchise makes many of us more cynical and hard to please. If you can make the tournaments a success you can probably succeed with pretty much everything. I will give you support if you respect the players and the viewers. I sincererly hope IG succeed, more esport to the people!

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Maybe. We don't know. But we're willing to get it the best try possible and hopefully we can lead this right into Halo 5 tournaments in maybe 2015... We feel ultimately it doesn't matter if only 50 people watch. If the winners get paid and the event goes off smoothly for participants. We still get the street cred. 

 

Why not do this with a larger title then? Spend the next year planning, marketing, etc for something like h5/h2A? Why bleed money for some "street cred"?

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