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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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37 minutes ago, MrGreenWithAGun said:

I don't know that I said it was overpowered. I said it was unbalanced. If you describe weapon balance as you have, I don't understand your perspective, so I cannot argue the point. To me weapon balance means how it plays in the context of the game. With AR being so useless, magnum high accuracy at range is not a reasonable expectation.  Thus it feels like it is too good given the other weapons that are available.

 

I apologize if i misconstrued where you were coming from. 

 

To reiterate, within the context of MCC, the weapon sandbox plays a LOT differently than it should. However, a player being able to defend oneself at nearly any range is a staple of utility play, which the magnum succeeds at not only in CE but in the series as a whole. It is meant to be good at any range but the BEST at strictly midrange. The sniper can properly contest at range, and the shotgun/ar/ppistol/prifle SHOULD all exceed its uses close but they don't, only the shotty/ar do. 

 

The AR has huge benefits in the best melee range as well as quick camo on top of being a better SMG than any smg in the series. It's not intended to do anything other than close, but it does close extremely well. 

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41 minutes ago, Obnokshus said:

 

I apologize if i misconstrued where you were coming from. 

 

To reiterate, within the context of MCC, the weapon sandbox plays a LOT differently than it should. However, a player being able to defend oneself at nearly any range is a staple of utility play, which the magnum succeeds at not only in CE but in the series as a whole. It is meant to be good at any range but the BEST at strictly midrange. The sniper can properly contest at range, and the shotgun/ar/ppistol/prifle SHOULD all exceed its uses close but they don't, only the shotty/ar do. 

 

The AR has huge benefits in the best melee range as well as quick camo on top of being a better SMG than any smg in the series. It's not intended to do anything other than close, but it does close extremely well. 

Yes I can see what you are saying, but it doesn't feel right being a hand gun. It should be a rifle. Why not make a BR a utility, a handgun a short range, heavy slow slug, between stopping power of BR and shotgun? Then it feels right. It would feel "balanced" as I would perceive the term.

 

I gotta say I love H3 again and HCE is a close second. The others are just too involved, too many "mechanics" to use. I like the simple game. Wish Halo never added all that junk... Just needed new animations and art, would have been wonderful.

 

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1 hour ago, MrGreenWithAGun said:

Yes I can see what you are saying, but it doesn't feel right being a hand gun. It should be a rifle. Why not make a BR a utility ...

I'm not sure why the weapon's skin matters (and I personally prefer having a utility weapon which takes up less real estate on my screen), but just to understand your position, would you be okay with a DMR/BR which was functionally identical to the H1 pistol (3sk, projectile, single shot, etc...)?

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13 hours ago, MrGreenWithAGun said:

Yes I can see what you are saying, but it doesn't feel right being a hand gun. It should be a rifle. Why not make a BR a utility, a handgun a short range, heavy slow slug, between stopping power of BR and shotgun? Then it feels right. It would feel "balanced" as I would perceive the term.

 

I gotta say I love H3 again and HCE is a close second. The others are just too involved, too many "mechanics" to use. I like the simple game. Wish Halo never added all that junk... Just needed new animations and art, would have been wonderful.

 

I always felt like the series utility weapon being a Magnum works far better for the sake of visual clarity. After all, holding a pistol is very much unlike any other long gun in the series, thanks not only to its size, but also the radically different stance the player takes when they hold a sidearm. Every Halo game with the BR as its main utility has had the issue of players not immediately being able to recognize whether the opponent approaching them has a BR or a shotgun, since both appear to be long black rectangles in the heat of the moment. Or if the guy far away is holding a sniper rifle or not. Which is probably why in Halo 5, 343 went with the admittedly effective, if inelegant, solution of just slapping a bright ass flash light on the shotgun and sniper.

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I am not trying to say a pistol is a bad skin for the job. I am saying that if you are going to run around a virtual world with different weapons, they should all add to the continuity of the game play, or you break immersion. (Ya, there's that word again - breaking immersion is where your brain realizes something isn't as it should be.)

if you want the pistol to be effective as it is in HCE, then the AR needs to simply go away. It feels so wrong along side the pistol. I love the HCE sniper, its got to be the easiest sniper in the series.

I only played a few games of H2 and H2A. I think it was the H2A AR that felt like an H4 SAW, and I absolutely loved it. I am inclined to think that is the weapon that should have been included with the HCE pistol to make each reasonable compared to each other. If I had an AR that could mow people down like the SAW I probably wouldn't feel the HCE pistol was strangely too accurate at distance. It would FEEL more correct in the entirety of the game.

H2 is tough as nails, but I am going to go play some social H2 and H2A to find my legs in those games.

 

UPDATE:

1. I am really enjoying the H2A sniper. Feels solid, easy to use. So much fun!

2. I just figure out why I like the H2A sniper - it sounds and feels like what a .45 hand gun should sound and feel like. LOL, this is too funny.

3. I like H2 SWAT, it's reasonable. But I am not crazy about maps that leave you in the open, especially Tombstone, or Ascension.

4. Tombstone - why did they call it that? It is more industrial looking than grave yard. It looks like shit.

5. H2 is okay, but not exciting. HCE and H3 remain my favorites for simplicity and action.

 

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the pistol is such a sick ass design that it boggles my mind both bungie and 343 (bungie moreso) have fucked with it 

dare i say it is "iconic" and its literally the first gun you ever use in halo

 

and they replaced it with the fucking sidekick ROFL

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1 hour ago, Killmachine said:

and they replaced it with the fucking sidekick ROFL

Halo Infinite's trailer showcased a spammy pistol, a semi auto shotgun, and an auto precision rifle. I have no hope for the game. 

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1 hour ago, Obnokshus said:

Halo Infinite's trailer showcased a spammy pistol, a semi auto shotgun, and an auto precision rifle. I have no hope for the game. 

343 is building Halo 6... I have no hope for the game.

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3 hours ago, Obnokshus said:

spammy pistol

"Alright, cool. Whatever." 

3 hours ago, Obnokshus said:

semi auto shotgun

"Wow that's gonna be annoying as hell"

3 hours ago, Obnokshus said:

auto precision rifle

"You're fucking kidding me"

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Infinites sandbox looks really fucking stupid even by 343 standards. H4 and 5 had their troubles but at least we didn't have the FN 57, SCAR-H and AA-12 copy pasted right out of MW2. What year is it over at 343?

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Nah dude every gun has to look like the kriss vector with a thumbhole stock or something.

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19 hours ago, MrGreenWithAGun said:

I am saying that if you are going to run around a virtual world with different weapons, they should all add to the continuity of the game play, or you break immersion. (Ya, there's that word again - breaking immersion is where your brain realizes something isn't as it should be.)

if you want the pistol to be effective as it is in HCE, then the AR needs to simply go away. It feels so wrong along side the pistol.

So the sandbox's balance and immersion are the same thing to you? 

Why should the AR go away when it has niche benefits the pistol doesnt have like quick camo? 

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2 hours ago, Aphex Twin said:

So the sandbox's balance and immersion are the same thing to you? 

Why should the AR go away when it has niche benefits the pistol doesnt have like quick camo? 

Immersion is the result of the game play experience overall. The sandbox's balance is one element that can impact immersion.

The AR isn't a camo "switch". It is a weapon. It just so happens that its uselessness as a weapon is what breaks immersion when it sits in the same sandbox as the magnum.

 

On a completely different note, I was playing H2 last night and was surprised to come across Tombstone (I guess that was the name of the map). It looks very industrial and not grave yardish. But what really caught my attention was how visually noisy it was.

And for FFA, the spawning was pathetic. I think at least a fourth or more of my spawns were directly in front of someone or in their cross hairs. I didn't move and was killed.

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2 hours ago, MrGreenWithAGun said:

The AR isn't a camo "switch". It is a weapon. It just so happens that its uselessness as a weapon is what breaks immersion when it sits in the same sandbox as the magnum.

 

The AR occupies the SMG role found in later games better than the rest. It is a bullethose that has the best melee range in the game with the ability to utilize active camo the best out of any weapon in HCE, on top of an extremely fast killtime on no shields. We are trying to change your perspective on an objectively useful(and good) weapon. 

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1 hour ago, Obnokshus said:

The AR occupies the SMG role found in later games better than the rest. It is a bullethose that has the best melee range in the game with the ability to utilize active camo the best out of any weapon in HCE, on top of an extremely fast killtime on no shields. We are trying to change your perspective on an objectively useful(and good) weapon. 

I understand. I am just saying that the AR isn't the weapon it should have been. I appreciate your patience in this discussion.

Will I switch to the AR when I see someone with no shields or someone I want to melee?

I haven't yet... I just don't think like that. Having played since H3 and not generally sporting a magnum for the obvious reasons, switching weapons for either of those scenarios isn't a trained reaction.

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On 1/1/2021 at 2:48 PM, MrGreenWithAGun said:

Immersion is the result of the game play experience overall. The sandbox's balance is one element that can impact immersion.

The AR isn't a camo "switch". It is a weapon. It just so happens that its uselessness as a weapon is what breaks immersion when it sits in the same sandbox as the magnum.

In addittion to what's already been said in a reply to you, it's also very good for lighting up camo, which is INVALUABLE. lighting up camo can be the difference between a 10 kill swing. 

and to your later post (switching to melee with a different weapon isn't a trained reaction since i played since halo3)... What did I read? Weapon melee strength is a thing in halo 3 (and halo2). It is optimal to switch to a brute shot to melee, especially with an smg/ar main hand. 

The literature:

Halo 3 has a total hitpoints of 115. 70 for shields and 45 for health.

Several weapons have been given specific values of damage that they do in hit points:

  • The Battle rifle does 6 points of damage per shot that hits out of its burst, for a maximum total of 18 points of damage per burst.
  • The Assault rifle does 7.5 points of damage per shot that hits.
  • Most weapons have melee attack damage of 70. The mauler and spiker, however, do 72 damage with melee attacks. Rockets, laser, and hammer deal 80 damage. Brute shot deals 90 damage.

So in normal halo 3 settings, Shooting twice with a BR and meleeing without switching will not yield a kill. As its 115-18-18 for a total of 79. 79-70 = 9 remaining health. However, if you switch to a rocket, laser, hammer, or brute shot to melee, you will now reach the threshold of melee damage to net a kill. Since the BR has a slow rate of fire, this is an easy way to win firefights in CQC vs other BR users, which happens a lot. If you have a brute shot, you can actually melee after firing 2/3 of the bullets in the 2nd burst which lets you melee even faster or lets you have a wider margin of error (who here hasn't only fired 5 bullets out of the br before meleeing in halo 3 mlg settings and not yielded a kill)

 

Having an an ar/smg seriously compete with the BR/pistol is not a good thing as we've seen in halo5. It just makes it so less exciting players can happen and makes combat dull. If it's 49-49, and the last person is mid shields and you're full. You can just spray em down because its impossible to miss instead of risking trying to land 3 headshots. This means those exciting reversals happen less and less often. 

It's role as a handholder for new players and it's niche uses in ce are perfect. Having the AR have stronger melee strength or a bigger melee hitbox would be ideal. 

 

 

 

As an unrelated note, I've seen people complaining how "they should have traded." See the literature here:

            Quote

In addition, the "threshold" of the point where two simultaneous melees can be contested, and both players can be killed as of the upcoming autoupdate, is 26.5 hit points. Because of this, you can effectively override the melee of another person when your melees are at the same time by having 26.5 or more hit points over the other person. 4 shots from an Assault rifle can cause this as a result.

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On 1/3/2021 at 11:17 AM, Riddler said:

In addittion to what's already been said in a reply to you, it's also very good for lighting up camo, which is INVALUABLE. lighting up camo can be the difference between a 10 kill swing. 

and to your later post (switching to melee with a different weapon isn't a trained reaction since i played since halo3)... What did I read? Weapon melee strength is a thing in halo 3 (and halo2). It is optimal to switch to a brute shot to melee, especially with an smg/ar main hand. 

The literature:

Halo 3 has a total hitpoints of 115. 70 for shields and 45 for health.

Several weapons have been given specific values of damage that they do in hit points:

  • The Battle rifle does 6 points of damage per shot that hits out of its burst, for a maximum total of 18 points of damage per burst.
  • The Assault rifle does 7.5 points of damage per shot that hits.
  • Most weapons have melee attack damage of 70. The mauler and spiker, however, do 72 damage with melee attacks. Rockets, laser, and hammer deal 80 damage. Brute shot deals 90 damage.

So in normal halo 3 settings, Shooting twice with a BR and meleeing without switching will not yield a kill. As its 115-18-18 for a total of 79. 79-70 = 9 remaining health. However, if you switch to a rocket, laser, hammer, or brute shot to melee, you will now reach the threshold of melee damage to net a kill. Since the BR has a slow rate of fire, this is an easy way to win firefights in CQC vs other BR users, which happens a lot. If you have a brute shot, you can actually melee after firing 2/3 of the bullets in the 2nd burst which lets you melee even faster or lets you have a wider margin of error (who here hasn't only fired 5 bullets out of the br before meleeing in halo 3 mlg settings and not yielded a kill)

 

Having an an ar/smg seriously compete with the BR/pistol is not a good thing as we've seen in halo5. It just makes it so less exciting players can happen and makes combat dull. If it's 49-49, and the last person is mid shields and you're full. You can just spray em down because its impossible to miss instead of risking trying to land 3 headshots. This means those exciting reversals happen less and less often. 

It's role as a handholder for new players and it's niche uses in ce are perfect. Having the AR have stronger melee strength or a bigger melee hitbox would be ideal. 

 

 

 

As an unrelated note, I've seen people complaining how "they should have traded." See the literature here:

            Quote

In addition, the "threshold" of the point where two simultaneous melees can be contested, and both players can be killed as of the upcoming autoupdate, is 26.5 hit points. Because of this, you can effectively override the melee of another person when your melees are at the same time by having 26.5 or more hit points over the other person. 4 shots from an Assault rifle can cause this as a result.

That is interesting. I didn't realize that the different weapons dealt different amounts at such a detailed enumeration.

But I also thought that the H3 BR dealt different amounts of damage to the head v the body/chest?

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43 minutes ago, MrGreenWithAGun said:

I also thought that the H3 BR dealt different amounts of damage to the head v the body/chest?

They do not

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The hit reg in CE is so bad that I log on, play one game, remember how unbelievably frustrating it is, then forget the game exists for another three weeks.

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I went all the way up to 30 from 25 in Team Slayer the other day and man, SBMM has made damn sure i'm headed back down the ladder. Absolutely brutal pairings of competent players vs clueless knobs today. I dont pretend to be the best of players; It always feels as though the pairings are working against you as a solo q. 

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The run with SasquatchSensei was so fun to watch; I never get tired of watching speedruns but it was shocking to me that I've actually never sat down and watched a Halo 3 speed run until this event. Only CE and 2 have I watched before hand. Was hella good

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If you ever wondered what Halo 2 would have looked like on it's original stencil engine, go play/watch Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay. Has stencil shadowing and was same era. Great looking game.

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5 hours ago, Shekkles said:

If you ever wondered what Halo 2 would have looked like on it's original stencil engine, go play/watch Chronicles of Riddick: Escape from Butcher Bay. Has stencil shadowing and was same era. Great looking game.

wow, that is shockingly good for 2004. Looks like a beefed up F.E.A.R. 

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