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Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

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9 minutes ago, TiberiusAudley said:

The problem for Ricochet, from Day 1, has been that the score to win was set too low for the expectations of the gametype.  Why is it a first to 3 or even 5, when it's a game where scoring, relative to CTF or Assault, is much MUCH easier (especially in games with ball-throwing)?

You're playing Basketball with score to win set to "Soccer."

That game could have had a ton of excitement with just two things: Significantly more points for dunks versus throwing it in (reverse from actual basketball, since, getting it TO the goal is hard since you can just be punched or shot to prevent a dunk...something that might end badly in a physical sport) and jacking up the score to win about tenfold.

 

By keeping the score to win low, it made the gametype extremely frustrating because a shot going in *EVER* feels terrible for the other team because it constantly feels like there's nothing to do to stop it.

By incentivizing dunks more, you encourage riskier plays, so there's less incentive for the hard-to-prevent long shots, and by raising the score to win, those long-shots don't feel like "Oh, well he pulled the trigger once now they're 20% of the way to victory."

Leaves a lot more room for comebacks and exciting runs of points when a team gets set-up.

I see where you're coming from, but I'm not entirely on board.

I agree that throw-ins are generally easy. My response to that is to reduce the size of the goals, and raise them off the ground to prevent roll-ins.

I disagree that throw-ins are worth too much. It's worth 20, and we play to 200. You need 10 of them to win, as opposed to four 50-point run-ins. I think the scoring is in a good place, UNLESS we want to experiment with a longer respawn time, which I do. In that case, we could look at a higher score limit.

I also disagree that throw-ins are difficult to prevent. Once a team adapts and learns how to play defense, a throw-in attempt is often a forfeited possession. Ricochet will eventually teach players that they need to keep a player back to guard against throws. It's just that people are slow learners because they aren't punished for their mistakes often enough, because most of the people playing are really bad.

Someone on these forums used to be all-in on Ricochet back in the day. Damned if I can't remember his username or I'd tag him.

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2 minutes ago, Hard Way said:

I disagree that throw-ins are worth too much. It's worth 20, and we play to 200. You need 10 of them to win, as opposed to four 50-point run-ins. I think the scoring is in a good place, UNLESS we want to experiment with a longer respawn time, which I do. In that case, we could look at a higher score limit.

I was responding based off the iteration of Ricochet that we were given in H2A for the HCS that everyone immediately shut down and refused to play.

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3 minutes ago, TiberiusAudley said:

I was responding based off the iteration of Ricochet that we were given in H2A for the HCS that everyone immediately shut down and refused to play.

Oh yeah I remember that. You could throw it in nearly from the pick-up point on Warlord. That map was a bad choice, but the goals were still too big iirc.  Shrine plays it really well.  I also think pro's were reluctant to adapt to strategies surrounding the mode, like having a "goalie" when the other team has the ball.  But yeah, Warlord was a bad call and represented the mode poorly.

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343 is 3-0 for decent 4v4 mode concepts (Extraction, Ricochet, and sort of Strongholds). The problem is that they keep jumping ship instead of refining their ideas. Hoping all 3 come back in some capacity so we can experiment in Infinite. Core 4 (CTF, Ball, King, and Bomb) takes top priority, though.

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1 minute ago, HeX Reapers said:

343 is 3-0 for decent 4v4 mode concepts (Extraction, Ricochet, and sort of Strongholds). The problem is that they keep jumping ship instead of refining their ideas. Hoping all 3 come back in some capacity so we can experiment in Infinite. Core 4 (CTF, Ball, King, and Bomb) takes top priority, though.

Strongholds was just an improved iteration over 3-Plots Territories from older variants to make it where you don't end up with unwinnable scenarios, but the other 2 I'll agree they had a ton of potential that went unrealized by the settings we were given.

 

And atomic take here: I don't think CTF should be a core Halo gametype, ESPECIALLY if we move -away- from enhanced movement with Infinite.

King of the Hill, Strongholds, Oddball, and Extraction all emphasize spacing better than CTF and rely even less on the "Get Power Weapon to Create Opening -> Try to Score" play pattern.

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5 hours ago, TiberiusAudley said:

Strongholds was just an improved iteration over 3-Plots Territories from older variants to make it where you don't end up with unwinnable scenarios, but the other 2 I'll agree they had a ton of potential that went unrealized by the settings we were given.

 

And atomic take here: I don't think CTF should be a core Halo gametype, ESPECIALLY if we move -away- from enhanced movement with Infinite.

King of the Hill, Strongholds, Oddball, and Extraction all emphasize spacing better than CTF and rely even less on the "Get Power Weapon to Create Opening -> Try to Score" play pattern.

Yeah that's why I said sort of for SHs, still think it's worth acknowledging.

The fact that you can even offer a combination like that is exactly why we need as many modes as we can get in Infinite. While I don't 100% agree with your reasonings, I'm more than down to try out any combination of game types. Getting a really solid core experience with map/mode variety is of extremely high importance. Hardway put it pretty well at the end of his Mythic video.

Which kind of reminds me, we need to take full advantage of the new Forge when selecting competitive maps. Rather than focusing on dev maps and salvaging Forge maps, it should really be the other way around. Infinite's competitive dev maps are most likely going to be "eh" and Forge is most likely going to be better than 5's. Let's not repeat past mistakes and underuse one of our best tools. We can work directly with Forgers to let them know what we want, as well as let them come up with their own cool shit that we don't even know we want. HCS/MLG has always been community-focused, why not represent the community as much as possible?

It was already gross how underused Forge was in H5, but let's not forget the salt on the wound when they came around at the very end. Subpar maps picked from a hat behind closed doors with an overscaled Sanc remake. Even though I hate H5, that was truly disheartening to see since I personally know the Forge community is better than that. Hell, there were multiple existing maps that were HEAPS better than what was nominated and chosen.

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I don't inherently see anything wrong with CTF but we desperately, desperately need more gametype/map diversity in competitive Halo. Now that we've got a ridiculous Forge as a backstop we don't have to worry about the shiny presentability of dev maps, so we need game modes that don't suck.

Relatedly, if 343 tries to pull another fast one on us in the vein of Breakout with Infinite I will throw a brick through their office window.

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Problem with competitive settings and maps.

1. Like casuals the competitive community vastly prefers developer maps over playing forge ones.

2. FPS drops. I’m praying that this doesn’t plague infinite, but theres noticeable FPS issues within the h5 maps in forge, and whether that was due to the Xbox ones inability to handle that is irrelevant, it also shows a lack of optimization.

3. Just too many game types. Slayer, king, ball, Ctf, assault,&  strong hold . Jesus! No wonder lots of people call halo a handful. Your average competitive game only has one game type, and cod and overwatch are the only ones that don’t. OW has 3 but all of them Are pretty similar to one another where it’s not difficult to go from this to that. And sometimes we have more than our fair share of maps. I know some of these haven’t always been in the mm/comp all at once, but my point is there’s such a significant difference between each mode that’s it’s a bit frustrating. I think many “gamers” would like it if it was just one or two modes because that’s simple, you can get better at that easier than you can the other 3 modes. 

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7 hours ago, Snipe Three said:

How did you react to this in the moment is all I'm wondering. Honestly my face would give away how crazy that sounds to me if you just sprung the topic on me without preparing me to be polite

Haha I just talked to them about it, it was actually a few members of that art team. They were all nice enough. I just gave my opinion on why I thought Bungies art is phenomenal; the colors, the LOD, the simplicity, the ideas, etc. And they gave their reasons why they didn't think so. I actually like a lot of the other professional work they've done, just not 4/5.  I've been criticised in the industry a lot this past year for being really critical of design/art stuff and it's haunted me a little bit so, I'm just making an effort to soften my approach lately lol. 

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28 minutes ago, MultiLockOn said:

Haha I just talked to them about it, it was actually a few members of that art team. They were all nice enough. I just gave my opinion on why I thought Bungies art is phenomenal; the colors, the LOD, the simplicity, the ideas, etc. And they gave their reasons why they didn't think so. I actually like a lot of the other professional work they've done, just not 4/5.  I've been criticised in the industry a lot this past year for being really critical of design/art stuff and it's haunted me a little bit so, I'm just making an effort to soften my approach lately lol. 

"We hired people who hated halo"

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I recorded a rant about the state of ranked playlists in MCC, and a couple other topics. Thought I'd share.
 

 

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1 hour ago, Hard Way said:

I recorded a rant about the state of ranked playlists in MCC, and a couple other topics. Thought I'd share.
 

 

Haven’t watched the whole video yet but this is regarding your hard core name comment and I do agree 100%. 
we need to stop naming shit MLG, hardcore etc. fuck the words rank already detracts people, and people think HC is just the sweaty no life moms basement type people, like wtf? 

i hope halo infinite just has one or two playlist at best for its ranked mode. When people play ranked in a game they want the settings to be what the tournaments are playing, but names like hardcore just make them afraid, which is why “team arena” is needed. In MCC case so many ranked playlist is the worse thing yet. Ow one ranked playlist, CSGO one ranked playlist, lol one ranked playlost(I think, I don’t play league my bro does) rainbow one ranked playlist(I think as well lol) my point is we just need something that makes ranked appealing in halo.

I think the thing that makes people play halo less these days and this is hopefully not an issue in halo infinite but “halo doesn’t feel good to play”

1. Spawns. Every halo so far suffers from some atrocious spawns and yes even in h1 the spawn system isn’t magically better just because you can dictate where you spawn, that still hardly changed what makes spawning bad to many individuals. 
2. Speed or gimmicky speed. Halo 1-3 in this day and age don’t do so hot in terms of movement speed, people want speed and though if we had some doom like movement speed we’d be fine, but I’m just saying since that’s not the case it’s not up for much argument. 
3. Halo is boring to watch. Gotta say looking back at h5 tournaments and some h3 ones, h5 surprisingly enough looks very fun to watch. Maybe because it really does look fast and maybe that’s what’s important to “feel” faster. 

4. People love a fast paced game but what does that mean to you? 

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8 hours ago, HeX Reapers said:

343 is 3-0 for decent 4v4 mode concepts (Extraction, Ricochet, and sort of Strongholds). The problem is that they keep jumping ship instead of refining their ideas. Hoping all 3 come back in some capacity so we can experiment in Infinite. Core 4 (CTF, Ball, King, and Bomb) takes top priority, though.

I also think that if the gameplay even remotely resembles a "core" Halo game, it should have a Midship and a Sanctuary as competitive maps. I personally like the idea of competitive games always having certain maps or arenas that are relative constants through time (e.g. Dust 2). A new viewer or someone giving a game like Halo another shot is way more likely to understand what is going on and have more of a instant familiarity with the experience if they at least have a few Arenas they are already likely to understand on some level. 

With Dust 2 as an example, I have probably played less than 50 games of CS in my life, but I watch the majors and a few tournaments here and there. When I do so I am able to have a slid grasp of the strategy's and rotations that are happening on a map like Dust 2 because of that consistency. I watch only a few games a year but since maps like that have been a constant it is easy for me to tune in and enjoy it. 

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How can halo become a casual & competitive game that feels right? I think the biggest problem atm is halo never strikes a proper balance. Think, how many games(mainstream only please) do you know where a ranked mode can’t even hit a thousand players? It actually astounds me believe it or not. Hard way mentions in his video, how many see halo as a casual game. So much where it have a competitive mode seems comical. But why? Why was h3 so competitive? H3 you could play any playlist and find matches instantly, what has given halo this image. H5 was viewed as a try hardy game but I can find matches relatively quick in h5 believe it or not, so clearly there’s something about that game. 

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I can't even find a ranked game. I really hope when Halo 2 launches we get a tasty boost in players because I really want to play ranked instead of social. Playing against DangerousMoose87 who's only just bought the game and playing MP for the first time is not a fun experience.

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I'm possibly playing Halo again for the first time in 3-4 months tonight, anyone want to carry a rusty bad kid? Only got it on xbox one for now.

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1 hour ago, Shekkles said:

I can't even find a ranked game. I really hope when Halo 2 launches we get a tasty boost in players because I really want to play ranked instead of social. Playing against DangerousMoose87 who's only just bought the game and playing MP for the first time is not a fun experience.

I feel this. My official count of goosed players since quarantine is about 236. 

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4 hours ago, Arlong said:

we need to stop naming shit MLG, hardcore etc.

 

4 hours ago, Arlong said:

i hope halo infinite just has one or two playlist at best for its ranked mode. 

There are three launch playlists:  Rumble Pit, Arena, and Invasion.  Rumble Pit is an 8 man Free For All featuring slayer gametypes on arena maps.  Arena is 4v4 with a mix of slayer and objective.  Invasion is 9v9 with asymmetric, multi-phase objectives and heavy vehicle usage.  

There are 12 launch maps:  6 Arena maps and 6 Invasion maps.  In addition, 3 forge canvases provide the means to create Squad maps and Doubles maps.  Squad Battle is 6v6, playing a mix of slayer and objective on larger maps with light vehicle usage.  Doubles is 2v2 slayer on smaller maps.  

If possible, prominent forgers should be given early access so they may begin developing Squad and Doubles maps.  Contests for Squad and Doubles maps should be held early on and used to populate these two forge supported playlists.  Community interaction and regular updates should keep these playlists fresh.  

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2 hours ago, Knighty Knight said:

I feel this. My official count of goosed players since quarantine is about 236. 

It's just not fun and I feel bad because what if they never play again? My new thing is if we're against people that only use AR and don't move and shoot I practice M&KB.

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18 hours ago, Hard Way said:

@Mow, situations like that suck and there's no excuse for it, but shooting a little slower will help it suck less.

Thanks for the tip, I think the part that is most annoying is the initial sniper shot to the head and the last 2 shots with the magnum, I can accept that maybe I wasn't leading well enough whilst he was moving but it is pretty difficult to tell in CE as there isn't really any obvious markers.

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5 hours ago, Larry Sizemore said:

Infinite needs a customs browser. At launch.

I'm still wondering how people got so hyped for Reach that they forgot about the customs browser entirely. I'd be more hyped for the customs browser, to be quite frank. 

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40 minutes ago, _Synapse said:

I'm still wondering how people got so hyped for Reach that they forgot about the customs browser entirely. I'd be more hyped for the customs browser, to be quite frank. 

Didn't they 'announce' that in like 2017? I don't think it's happening. Not sure how much I believed in the first place honestly.

Customs browser is absolutely necessary for Infinite though because I think that matchmaking as we know it has run its course. By all means keep it around for ranked playlists and 'core' experiences like big team battle, but there are so many different factions to please nowadays that coming up with a trim selection of playlists (too many playlists = population spread too thin = slow matches = people jumping ship) that will please even an acceptable portion of the fanbase is just about impossible. A simple list of open customs lobbies just like Halo PC would work wonders. Find a lobby that suits you, jump in and have fun. The gametype rotation isn't for you or there's a skill discrepancy that's killing the fun for you? Jump out and find another lobby. That environment would probably be a lot less toxic too compared to the cretins running around in matchmaking.

I will now go flush myself down the toilet for unironically saying 'toxic' like some 15 year old reddit NPC

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