Jump to content
CyReN

Halo: The Master Chief Collection Discussion

Recommended Posts

51 minutes ago, Arlong said:

@Snipe Three

i think you need to look at the fact halo has always been on console, so high or low AA isn’t ever an issue or thought process for most gamers especially since it’s not seen as bad balancing. But mouse gamers expect no aim assistance or at the very least very low aim assist. I think h3 and h1 have good AA levels without being really high. 

That just isn't true lol. We've been talking about exactly that for 15 years talking about Halo 2 aim assist vs Halo CE, Halo2sucks.com, Halo 5 sniper vs H3 etc. The problem here is that people walked into Halo Reach expecting a fully featured PC game and 343 released it without options to sort or restrict which input types you play against. Reach is a console game from 2011 being released as part of a console game collection from 2014 in 2019 while also being ported to PC. If anyone actually expected this to be a fully featured PC game they are not familiar with ports and/or didn't think for very long. The game being playable and virtually identical on controller was the expected outcome. The part where 343 fumbled and didn't allow people to restrict their searches to specific input types is the surprising and dumb part of all of this. We're talking about people who just released a game with laggy aim and sound that doesn't work correctly after saying they would release it when its ready. Their definition of ready clearly does not include polished or finished unfortunately and it kind of sucks to have to point that out since the MCC team really has been making massive improvements over time to the game on console. MCC and finished product are apparently mutually exclusive over at 343 since they somehow released the same game twice without it being finished or ready either time

  • Like (+1) 3

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, Snipe Three said:

That just isn't true lol. We've been talking about exactly that for 15 years talking about Halo 2 aim assist vs Halo CE, Halo2sucks.com, Halo 5 sniper vs H3 etc. The problem here is that people walked into Halo Reach expecting a fully featured PC game and 343 released it without options to sort or restrict which input types you play against. Reach is a console game from 2011 being released as part of a console game collection from 2014 in 2019 while also being ported to PC. If anyone actually expected this to be a fully featured PC game they are not familiar with ports and/or didn't think for very long. The game being playable and virtually identical on controller was the expected outcome. The part where 343 fumbled and didn't allow people to restrict their searches to specific input types is the surprising and dumb part of all of this. We're talking about people who just released a game with laggy aim and sound that doesn't work correctly after saying they would release it when its ready. Their definition of ready clearly does not include polished or finished unfortunately and it kind of sucks to have to point that out since the MCC team really has been making massive improvements over time to the game on console. MCC and finished product are apparently mutually exclusive over at 343 since they somehow released the same game twice without it being finished or ready either time

I mean for the most part those aren’t game breaking issues though. A console gamer won’t leave that game because of high AA.  Halo2sucks I bet didn’t have a high following, h5 is its own game and the sniper AA didn’t play a part in the games population dwindle, 

Share this post


Link to post
39 minutes ago, Riddler said:

Does anyone have the kill times for halo reach pc. Magnum/dmr/nr

3s

  • Simms (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
On 12/22/2019 at 2:56 AM, arglactable said:

Of course, as expected, it seems that most long time console veterans™ would prefer to pretend that PC players are just whining about losing instead of acknowledging that shooting in Halo (outside of the maybe the sniper) has never really been that hard

Where are these people?

Myself and all my friends would be fine with the controller assists being nerfed and we are thumb WARRIORS.

  • Like (+1) 4
  • Upvote (+1) 5

Share this post


Link to post
13 hours ago, Basu said:

Dude is just fucking salty and people think controllers are op because an "InFluEnCeR" says its so.

I've been saying controllers are OP since the 3rd flight. Hell, most of the people that were in the 3rd flight agreed, this shit isn't a new issue because summit is finally getting the word out. 

 

Fuck, I figured this will be a problem back before flighting even started.

unknown.png

  • Upvote (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
33 minutes ago, ChieftaiNZ said:

I've been saying controllers are OP since the 3rd flight. Hell, most of the people that were in the 3rd flight agreed, this shit isn't a new issue because summit is finally getting the word out. 

 

Fuck, I figured this will be a problem back before flighting even started.

 

Alright, apologies for my ignorance in that post. But still, how is this issue realistically going to get resolved? I can see these scenarios:

Remove controllers / remove all aim assist for controllers.
Is delusional and never going to happen unless they want to lose 95% of their playerbase. Kills crossplay potential. 

 


Turn down aim assist until controllers and MKB are balanced.
would be the ideal situation but again kills the possibility of crossplay with Xbone players. Also this is 343, the company that still hasn't got a clue about weapon balance almost ten years into this franchise so I wouldn't hold my breath that they're going to nail Controller vs MKB balance anytime soon. Would also have to be tuned for each game separately.


Separate input devices by MM parameters
My favorite solution and probably the one we should push for. At the very least in ranked this should've been there at launch. Works just like the match composer which is the best thing 343 has ever added to this franchise.


Do nothing
The most likely situation.

  • Like (+1) 6

Share this post


Link to post
8 minutes ago, Basu said:

Alright, apologies for my ignorance in that post. But still, how is this issue realistically going to get resolved? I can see these scenarios:

Remove controllers / remove all aim assist for controllers.
Is delusional and never going to happen unless they want to lose 95% of their playerbase. Kills crossplay potential. 

Should be considered, but only for ranked modes. Ranked on PC should only be M/kb, if you want to play comp Halo with a controller, play on console, otherwise the skill waters are going to get very muddied.

 


Turn down aim assist until controllers and MKB are balanced.
would be the ideal situation but again kills the possibility of crossplay with Xbone players. Also this is 343, the company that still hasn't got a clue about weapon balance almost ten years into this franchise so I wouldn't hold my breath that they're going to nail Controller vs MKB balance anytime soon. Would also have to be tuned for each game separately.

I'm not entirely convinced that you can balance AA in a way that feels fair for everyone


Separate input devices by MM parameters
My favorite solution and probably the one we should push for. At the very least in ranked this should've been there at launch. Works just like the match composer which is the best thing 343 has ever added to this franchise.

The obvious solution and should be a top priority


Do nothing
The most likely situation.

Yeah 343 is a small indie studio that doesn't have the resources to tackle this issue head on.

 

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
19 hours ago, Arlong said:

I mean for the most part those aren’t game breaking issues though. A console gamer won’t leave that game because of high AA.  Halo2sucks I bet didn’t have a high following, h5 is its own game and the sniper AA didn’t play a part in the games population dwindle, 

I would argue the exact opposite.  The sniper was of course a reason (among many of course) for the population decline.  It was definitely the most frustrating sniper to play against except maybe descope-less Halo 4.  And if the AA is so high it ends up turning into "Who see's who first wins" even with the extended kill times, that sucks too.  Pain points like that add up until people reach their breaking point.  Played the Mythic playlist in Halo 5 with some old Halo friends a couple weekends ago.  We figured we would get our ranks in Team Arena while we were in there and everybody's comments from game one started with "This game is kind fun we should play this again" then by game 8 it was all "holy shit does the sniper EVER miss?  This flying around sucks. I remember why i stopped playinng this."   We're watching this same kind of thing happen with KBM players on PC now.  The Halo-hype glasses have come off.

  • Like (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
22 hours ago, flawlesscowboy said:

Search and destroy rivalled TDM for popularity on MW2 by my memory and you were required to be in game chat. It wasn't  a playlist killer then, that's just how it was. People liked SND so they played it regardless. Although things have changed since that time on the 360, I don't see why it would be high on anyone's list of reasons fo not wanting to play one thing over another especially if it's universal in the game. People dont use game chat because it's an afterthought in the game as opposed to a core part of multiplayer like it was on 360 games. I think you're exaggerating how much people supposedly hate gamechat and need to be in private parties.

As an aside, compilations of MW2 gamechat specifically are hugely popular. Personally the only real reason I started using party chat is because the game chat quality on original Reach is still aids even on xbox one.

MW2 was also the very beginning of party chat. 9 years ago. We just came off a time where og Xbox had game chat only and 2-3 years on Xbox 360 with game chat only. Party chat was like a new technology that some people used but many people just used game chat bec it was what they were used to. 

Everybody uses party chat today. It doesn't matter if it's 1 friend or 7 friends all playing the same game - we still get in a party chat. Why? The biggest reason is we're just used to it. It's also bec we can get in a party and talk about what we want to do without having to go on Halo, invite player, then wait for everyone to do the same and join the lobby before we can even beginning discussing what to play. And if 1 friend gets disconnected from the game, we're not all wondering "wtf happened where did he go", then have to wait for the game to be over, re-invite and hope he joins back. Instead he's in the party and can say right then and there.

If you make a playlist that required game-chat then everybody is just going to create a discord server and talk through there. 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
20 minutes ago, JordanB said:

And if 1 friend gets disconnected from the game, we're not all wondering "wtf happened where did he go", then have to wait for the game to be over, re-invite and hope he joins back. Instead he's in the party and can say right then and there. 

This is a great point. Given how unreliable MCC and H5's servers and menus are it would be a nightmare to constantly wonder why people leave or disconnect. "I'm stuck in black screen, are you guys already in the post-game lobby?" is something I have to say on a regular basis when playing these games.

Share this post


Link to post

Stop trying to bring back game chat for the love of fucking God. That time is over. No one wants to be forced to talk with random fuckwits on Xbox live.

  • Like (+1) 1
  • Fire (+1) 4
  • WutFace (+0) 1

Share this post


Link to post

The Mercenary playlist could force gamechat.  For people who are playing by themselves but would like to talk to others.  Don’t think it would appeal to you little hothouse flowers though.  

  • Toxic (+1) 2

Share this post


Link to post
20 hours ago, znot said:

After watching the Summit1g twitter video again, I do hope they can fix mouse or controller or w.e the solution is. I wanna see teams with KBM and even controller players. I wanna see them both competing against eachother honestly.

Yeah I want it to be fair.

I wanna hear "yo did you hear team X picked up a controller player...YIKES!" 

I realize this is probably hard for long time console-only players to understand, and I'm trying to be a respectful as I can about this, but it will never actually be fair as long as one input requires automated assistance and the other doesn't. The only people who benefit from trying to make these two inputs "balanced" are the controller players.

And that's before you address the fact that a nontrivial percentage of controller players not only expect aim assists to be this strong, but DON'T EVEN THINK THEY ARE A SIGNIFICANT FACTOR.

GROSS. He'll fit right in with all of the god gamers who insist aim assist actually just gets in the way of their incredible, high level thumb stick deflection skills, so they just turn it off.

17 hours ago, Shekkles said:

Where are these people?

Myself and all my friends would be fine with the controller assists being nerfed and we are thumb WARRIORS.

Really? Do you want me to screen cap the hundreds of comments on Twitter, on Youtube, in Twitch chats, and even on this very forum that heavily imply and very often explicitly claim that PC players are just bad at the game and blaming aim assist instead of gitting gud? I am aware that exceptions exist, but that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of fragile console gamer egos involved in this.

  • Like (+1) 2
  • Fire (+1) 3
  • Thonking (+0) 1

Share this post


Link to post

“Halo kids have always been gross” lmao. Just yesterday I was talking about how Halo players have the fattest egos out of any other gaming community.

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, arglactable said:

snip

I think when people, at least here, say that PC players are bad they're referring to a general lack of experience with Halo and not that a PC player would always be bad given said experience. Its just a pretty steep curve for anyone regardless of how good their aim is to catch up to the meta of how people are currently playing after a couple of decades of build up. Surely its still much faster to catch up to the current top end than the amount of time it took those generations of players to develop towards this otherwise we would never see new players emerge so I expect some PC gods to become relevant soon as long as 343 makes sure their input devices work correctly. I don't mean big or known streamers though. More along the lines of some kid 14-18 years old nobody has ever heard of that just likes the game enough to play 16 hours a day in the way it usually happens. A lot of people either forgot or never even knew about the few H2V PC guys that were actually totally insane

Cool stuff like this can come out of Halo on PC if they just allow the inputs to work and provide the environment for people. Really they need to fix the inputs before doing anything other than also working on input type toggles. I just picked that video because its not really a big deal but it is someone using mkb and there are a couple of clips in there I'd love to see someone hit with a controller

 

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
6 minutes ago, Snipe Three said:

I think when people, at least here, say that PC players are bad they're referring to a general lack of experience with Halo and not that a PC player would always be bad given said experience. Its just a pretty steep curve for anyone regardless of how good their aim is to catch up to the meta of how people are currently playing after a couple of decades of build up. Surely its still much faster to catch up to the current top end than the amount of time it took those generations of players to develop towards this otherwise we would never see new players emerge so I expect some PC gods to become relevant soon as long as 343 makes sure their input devices work correctly. I don't mean big or known streamers though. More along the lines of some kid 14-18 years old nobody has ever heard of that just likes the game enough to play 16 hours a day in the way it usually happens. A lot of people either forgot or never even knew about the few H2V PC guys that were actually totally insane

I don't think anyone is really denying that there is a lot of experience and game/map-specific knowledge that give the long time players an huge advantage over new players (to Halo) on PC. But I have seen plenty of people dismiss the concerns about aim assist by deflecting to that, which is what I'm talking about here. Summit himself (continuing to refer to him because he's the most high profile PC FPS player who stuck with the game for a while) fully admitted that his positioning and decision-making was poor and his general lack of experience was the biggest reason he was bottom-fragging in lobbies with veterans. He plays CS:GO PUGs with tier one pros. He knows what it's like to put in hours in a hard game and play with people who are way better than he is.

That said, I am glad to see that a lot of long time controller pros and semi-pros are acknowledging the issue. I'm just not sure that "balancing" the input will ever be an acceptable solution. There are tons of PC players who absolutely do not want anything to do with aim assist and, as I mentioned, there are a lot of controller players who wildly under-estimate how dependent their sense of aiming competency is on strong aim assists.

I'm also not sure that dividing the population by input preference is a great long term solution and it won't scale down well for what is generally one of the smaller playlist populations in the game. If I had to choose a compromise at the moment, I would lean towards no aim assist in Ranked playlists and leaving social as is.

Share this post


Link to post

Im still in camp “fix input lag” before even touching anything with aim assist. Id touch bullet mag before aim assist too. 

  • Upvote (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
30 minutes ago, Riddler said:

Im still in camp “fix input lag” before even touching anything with aim assist. Id touch bullet mag before aim assist too. 

Agreed, playing last night....

 

I noticed two things. I think the problem with mouse is people may want to strafe into their shots rather than just aim it. It helps tracking a lot more. Maybe it's because I'm coming from controller and controllers usually strafe into their shot because were NOT AS PRECISE AS MOUSE imagine that. But I still think strafing into my shots on mouse actually worked better than strictly aiming and strafing independent of each other.

the other thing is that just using a mouse is plain ugly. The mouse camera movement is SUPER FUCKING JITTERY and ghosty. Lethul made a vid, on mouse there's jitteryness and ghosting, on controller it's just smooth camera pan.

That was probably the main thing fucking my aim the most was the jumping of frames when trying to track a player. Shit is SO JUMPY AND JITTERY AND UGLY

 
so yeah I'm with you, how can people even say remove aim assist when problems like this still exist and contribute heavily to the aiming issue.

It pretty much is the games fault at this point. When it's fixed sure, then talk about aim assist reduction. Hell I'm okay with reduction but not outright removal. 

 

  • Like (+1) 1
  • Thonking (+0) 1

Share this post


Link to post
8 hours ago, ChieftaiNZ said:

I've been saying controllers are OP since the 3rd flight. Hell, most of the people that were in the 3rd flight agreed, this shit isn't a new issue because summit is finally getting the word out. 

 

Fuck, I figured this will be a problem back before flighting even started.

unknown.png

The thing is the input was horrendously bad. There were many who thought once they were fixed/improved things would of turned out better but they didn’t 

Share this post


Link to post

It's funny people said this would happen and here it is. 343 didn't wait until it was ready to release it and now it's lost most of it's player base. twitch viewership is low again (though it's monday but nearing holiday break so take it as you will)

 

 

They should have taken the time to probably test this stuff more and fix it... Ya know, open the flights and let us flight throughout december into jan. 

Or just release it busted. :lxthul::lxthul:

  • Like (+1) 1

Share this post


Link to post
14 minutes ago, Arlong said:

The thing is the input was horrendously bad. There were many who thought once they were fixed/improved things would of turned out better but they didn’t 

It wasnt fixed. Theres a big dif between 200ms and 50ms but so is 50ms and 0ms. 0-5ms + monitor lag is the standard. Right now people are playing on 50ms input delay. If youve ever player ce on xbc offhost, thats what all pc players are experiencing right now (well similiar. Xbc was movement and fire delay but zero camera delay. Pc is the above + camera delay. Camera delay is better for hittint shots).  

Share this post


Link to post

I know it wasn’t fixed dude, I use a mouse on this game I can tell. It was just improved upon but nothing more.

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use & Privacy Policy.